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The 30-30 Legend

Discussion in 'Rifle Country' started by LRDGCO, May 13, 2019.

  1. ExAgoradzo

    ExAgoradzo Member

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    I like the IDEA of the .30-30.

    As noted already, I have no need for it, I have no need for most of my rifles (except the ones I make up in my head). But I’d like to have some old guys .30-30 just because it was his and because I like levers.

    I already own a brush gun (1895 in .45-70) and I own a .308 so... But the idea of stewarding and periodically dusting off some old Marlin or Winchester would be very nice in my mind.

    Greg
     
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  2. midland man

    midland man Member

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    well we gotta rally for the 30-30 as I did see the other day this young boy which has a 30-30 was drooling over a m1 in 308w so his mom asked me is the 30-30 enough for this area and of course I said yes and so but that boy wanted that m1 really bad so we need to teach our young that the old 30-30 is still up to the task at hand!
     
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  3. Buckeye63

    Buckeye63 Member

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    image.jpeg
    This my favorite carbine ..
    Marlin JM 336Y 30-30 Spikehorn
    16 inch barrel ...
    Loves 170gr Winchester Power Point

    Henry is to come out with a 16 inch Stainless Steel barreled 30-30 , next year ... I have a few frog skins put back
     
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  4. readyeddy

    readyeddy Member

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    Maybe the gun writers are saying that the AR platform isn't normally very hard hitting beyond a couple hundred yards, so it's an improvement, for the AR, to duplicate 30-30 performance.

    So although the 30-30 gets outclassed by high powered cartridges that most folks use for hunting these days, it's still powerful for intermediate ranges, especially when compared to cartridges that fit into the AR. Kind of like comparing apples to oranges to peaches.
     
  5. Old Stumpy

    Old Stumpy Member

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    Are you on about this again? You used this exact trolling statement before in other threads.
    It was false then and it is false now.
    In 1895 you had the choice of .44-40, .32-40, or .38-55 in a small to medium framed lever action rifle such as the 1892 and the first 1894 Winchesters.
    In 1896 the new .30-30 ballistics exceeded all of them by a wide margin.
    Certainly, there were more powerful smokeless cartridges available even then, but that wasn't the point.
    The goal with the .30-30 and the 1894 Winchester was to achieve a superior smokeless cartridge approaching .30-40 Krag ballistics, while still maintaining a lightweight action similar in size and weight to the 1892.
    Winchester achieved that goal splendidly.
     
  6. someguy2800

    someguy2800 Member

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    There are some AR15 wildcats that absolutely blow the 30-30 out of the water in terms of both energy and external ballistics, but they are not mainstream factory offerings.
     
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  7. midland man

    midland man Member

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    I LOVE MY 30-30'S AND WILL TO MY DEATH!!
     
  8. Davek1977

    Davek1977 Member

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    Despite reading gun magazones for the last 35 years or so.....I don't recall much of anyone calling the 30-30 underpowered or obsolete. Nearly everything I have ever read about it describes it as a popular deer round, and wholly effective when used within its limitations. The oft-repeated claim that the 30-30 has taken more deer in the US than any other cartridge tends to lend credence to the idea that if gun writers actually ever did make such claims on a widespread basis, they were also largely ignored by the general public on a widespread basis.
     
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  9. Riomouse911

    Riomouse911 Member

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    Not to stir up the coals on what should be a long dead campfire, but a quick question for those much more knowledgeable about firearms history than I:

    I know that Euro armies had efficient 6.5, 7 and 8mm cartridges for martial use back in the mid 1890’s...my Q is, were any actual sporting rifles (bolt, single shot or other) advertised or available in the US in those calibers back at the turn of the century? And if not, does anyone know when they were available?

    We know the 1895 was ultimately chambered in high performance .30-03 / .30-06, (and 7.62x54R Russian for their army) but never in 6.5x55 or 7 Mauser etc...(Wiki says it was chambered in 8 Mauser but I can’t seem to find a source for that one).

    Just wonderin’

    Stay safe.
     
  10. mustanger98

    mustanger98 Member

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    The kid has a .30-30 and wants an M1? Sounds like he has good taste.
     
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  11. mustanger98

    mustanger98 Member

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    For American hunting rifles chambered for the Euro military cartridges mentioned, I haven't read about them being available in that time frame. However, I can picture Spanish-American War veterans arguing about which is the better deer rifle... U.S. .30-40Krag vs Spanish issue 7x57mm.

    If Winchester ever chambered a 1895 in 8x57JS, I never saw one.
     
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  12. Newtosavage

    Newtosavage Member

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    That's right. I was shocked to see that as an option, especially with the resurgence in the 7.62x54R Mosin's
     
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  13. PWC

    PWC Member

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    This discussipn reminds me of a similar one, on another forum, about the 1911 being irrelevent. 30-30 and 1911s are still liked and appreciated because just like Paul Neuman said about himself in the movie HOMBRE, "I can hack it"....the 30-30 and 1911 can still hack it. Noone here is going to argue anyone else into, or out of liking, buying or using either one.
     
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  14. Goosey

    Goosey Member

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    Yes, they could find some Mannlichers and Mauser sporting rifles, and after they started selling to the public the Krag was popular and after a while, some people could even manage to get their hands on a Springfield. But bolt-actions did not really take off until after World War I. For many years I believe that in the game fields, even the .30-06 was much more commonly seen in a Winchester '95. Consider that the Savage Model 1920 was, as far as I know, the first commercial high-power bolt-action hunting rifle offered by a major American company. The 30-30 was a mild cartridge designed for a lever-action. As far as American hunters were concerned the system was on the cutting-edge. I don't see how it was "obsolete".
     
  15. LRDGCO

    LRDGCO Member

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    It's an excellent question. First, the bolt action rifle was relatively new in the mid 1890s. While invented in 1824, the U.S. Army only adopted one in the early 1890s, while the Navy was ahead of the game with the 6mm Lee in 1895. There were no major manufacturers producing non-military rifles in bolt action prior to the turn of the century in the US. While some may have been available from European and small scale U.S. makers, neither the cartridges, nor the rifles to fire them, became somewhat widely available until after WWI in the US. The sale of surplus Krags started putting them into the hands of some folks prior to the war, and servicemen who had used them in France and elsewhere helped make them popular.
     
  16. wanderinwalker

    wanderinwalker Member

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    I don't see Spanish-American War vets arguing the merits of deer hunting with the bolt action rifles, as American hunters were lever action users until the mid-war period into the 1920s. Bolt actions as hunting rifles weren't necessarily in widespread use here in the States until post-WWII.

    I also question the assertion that so many lever action 30-30s were sold purely due to the Western craze of the 1950s. My grandfather purchased a Winchester 94 carbine in .30-30 as his first hunting rifle when he was 14 or so, circa 1940/41. And I doubt he'd seen many moving pictures by that time, growing up on rural NH farms. Judging by the condition of the various Winchesters and Marlins that have passed through my hands, these rifles were bought and USED by people like my grandfather and his brothers, until they couldn't physically get out any more. I'm guessing it's because the little carbines blended adequate power, range and accuracy with easy portability and modest cost.

    Around here in New England brush country, the little Marlin and Winchester rifles remain reasonably popular today even. To those predicting lever action and .30-30 users will all be dying off in the next couple of decades note that I'm 35 and my grandfather passed at 91. So it's looking like the .30-30 has at least one fan with a solid 5 decades left in him. ;)
     
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  17. BigBore44

    BigBore44 Member

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    I guess I’m just not that fast to throw history out the window. Some may place importance on present sales. And it is a determining factor in “new” popularity. But how many 30-30 rifles are there out there in safes, display cases, and gun racks around the country? Probably millions. How many people still hunt with them? Maybe not as many as once did. But many still do. I do. I’ve know I’ve bought 2 in the last 3 months. And a 35 Rem.

    Cutting edge at inception or not, is really irrelevant. It’s just a point for someone to make an attempt at an argument for the sake of arguing. But if it was the first commercial US cartridge designed for smokeless powder, I’m not sure how that’s not cutting edge. It was the FIRST. Also, since the Legend is brand new, I would think the Legend IS supposedly cutting edge. And it’s still not proven to be any better. It’s just offered in a different platform. A platform still ~60 years away from creation when the 30-30 came out.

    So yeah, Legendzzz.
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2019
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  18. midland man

    midland man Member

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    yep I will use my 30-30 for years to come so lets rally our youth back to using this grand old cartridge!
     
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  19. Buckeye63

    Buckeye63 Member

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    The 6.5 Grendel really looks good on paper , especially with 120gr pills...
    Im not a AR guy .. But that round in a Ruger American Ranch would be a nice combo
     
  20. entropy

    entropy Member

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    That option starts at about $1000 for a no-finish-left shooter, on up. I still want one, ans I love the look, the history, and I have a few rounds around to shoot from it.
     
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  21. mustanger98

    mustanger98 Member

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    Spanish-American War veterans... many would still be using leverguns, but those who had experience with the U.S. Krag and Spanish Mauser, and could get ahold of a Krag or had brought a Mauser home... I won't say they never discussed the matter. Sporting rifles in those chamberings are another story... generally unavailable until the mid-1920's.

    The rest of the quoted post, I generally agree with.
     
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  22. mustanger98

    mustanger98 Member

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    I'm thinking it's on a par with a Krag-chambered '95, which might be found in better shape than the Russian contract guns. How to economically feed the two looks to me like a toss-up... Krag handloaloads vs Russian surplus ball.
     
  23. wanderinwalker

    wanderinwalker Member

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    I also wonder if it may be regional as well, depending on the local terrain and game animals. That was something I wanted to mention earlier, but posting on a small-screen mobile isn't conducive to the best thought organization.

    What I do know for sure is that up until even the end of the 1950s, money wasn't as readily available as it seems to be these days. And particularly for folks like my grandparents, who grew up on farms during the Depression, money and "stuff" couldn't be counted on to be available. Definitely the source of "make, repair, make do or do without." While something like a Winchester 54, Remington 30, or a sporterized Springfield or Krag may have been better ballistically, why spend that money when a Winchester 94 and it's .30-30 cartridge do the same thing at less expense? Also note a lot of the folks at that time were meat hunters, and high velocity rounds developed an early reputation for lots of meat damage.

    The other thing about all of the early military cartridges that I probably missed being noted earlier, they were all originally loaded with RN bullets, just like the .30-30. While you get great penetrating power from those nice, long, FMJ bullets, their ballistic arc isn't really that much better than a .30-30. Increased velocity doesn't flatten the trajectory of RN or FN bullets in the dramatic ways we're used to seeing with more streamlined designs. It really is the introduction of the spitzer bullet that cements the superiority of the rimless, bottleneck rounds, and that didn't happen in the military loads until a good 10+ years after the .30-30 had already been on the market.
     
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  24. Jason_W

    Jason_W Member

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    No mention of the 6mm Lee Navy yet? Unless I missed it.

    Possibly the most forgotten of all cartridges adopted by the US armed forces.
     
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  25. mustanger98

    mustanger98 Member

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    To post #123, several good points about cost, availability, and RN bullets. I do think regional considerations, as well as an individual's economic situation, would play a role.

    The part where you did with what you had... not everyone customized their rifles either, whether an 1894 .30-30, a U.S. Krag, or a Spanish war trophy. (Also, not everyone who lived through the Spanish-American War was a veteran of it. That's kind of a limited group compared to the WW1/WW2 veterans.) If the sights and ballistics allowed them to make it work for their situation, that's what they'd use. The most some did was switch to a Redfield or Lyman reciever sight, but during the depression, not everyone could do that.
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2019
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