The 9mm and 10mm

[pwrtool45]

Pet peeve alert:

The only .41 magnums the 10mm compares to are the downloaded rounds like the Silvertip. Using bullets of similar sectional density and similar barrel lengths, the 10mm best compares to a full-bore .357 magnum, with slightly more energy and slightly reduced penetration. (http://recipes.alliantpowder.com as a starting reference). Depending on your use (defense v/s hunting) this can be advantageous (or not).

//end pet peeve alert

Sorry about that.

Now, I enjoyed my Colt Delta 10mm and found recoil to be more tolerable than my .45 Kimber Custom Royal. Not necessarily "softer," per se, but different and to my mind more pleasant. That pistol is on the short list of those I regret getting rid of.

For a plinker, I'd stick with 9mm. In fact, I have. The only centerfire autopistol I own these days is a newly acquired Sig 229 in 9mm.

 

[artherd]

I've recently gotten into pistols, and found a pleasant surprise in the 9mm and pistol recoil in general. It's far more tolerable than I thought it would be!

My first pistol will almost certinly be in 9mm, because it's *ehough* recoil to actually teach me how to shoot (for that reason I do not really want a .22LR to start) and still *very* cheap to shoot. Not sure between SIG and Glock at the moment (not even sure of G17 or G19).

I then plan to get a Glock 20 and play with the ability to shoot everything else, from 10mm, to .357SIG, to .40S&W, with a barrel change.

Don't let anyone scare you from 10mm in price or scarcity. It's fairly available over-the-counter, and via Mail Order, only about 2x the cost of the very dirt-cheapest 9mm, and on par with say .40S&W or .45.

One of these years I may get a .45, but that thing's nearly sub-sonic!

Oh, 10mm has nearly TWICE the muzzle energy of a 9mm. ~340lb-ft for 9mm, and well over 650lb-ft for 10mm. This bests even the best .45 loads.

Best!
Ben.

 

[Majic]

My first pistol will almost certinly be in 9mm, because it's *ehough* recoil to actually teach me how to shoot (for that reason I do not really want a .22LR to start)

Recoil comes after the shot is made. It has absolutely nothing to do with the mechanics of making the shot. After you have learned the grip, sight picture, breath control, muscle memory, and trigger manipulation then you have learned to shoot. Recoil only affects the amount of time needed to begin the next sequence of firing a shot.

 

[50 Freak]

Hey Stinky,

Take it from a big Glock fan. Skip the 9mm Glocks. Get a 40 SW Glock platform. ie G27, 22, 23. Then spend an extra $100 bucks and get a 9mm barrel. It will drop right in and then you will have two pistols in one gun.

Then spend another $100 later on and get the 357 sig barrel. Then you'll have 3 pistols in one gun. 9 mm, 40 sw, and 357 sig.

Practice with the nine (as it's dirt cheap) and use the 40 or 357 as defense rounds.

Mags will interchange with no problems.

You can do that with a 40 or 357 sig frame. But you cannot put a 40 or 357 sig barrel in a 9mm frame. Not enough pins/strength.

Trust me. You'll thank me in the future.

50

 

[agtman]

Well, here's my suggestion:

The choice of a 9mm pistol as a "starter" gun isn't all bad for many reasons already mentioned.

There are a ton of guns made in 9mm, and one of these will surely "fit" your hand. If it's one that's comfortable to shoot, you'll get out and do just that. 9mm ammo's way cheap, and that's a boon for doing lots of shooting.

As you can figure out, more practice allows you to hone the basics of good shooting technique, to develop muscle-memory (important, along w/ technique, in handling recoil), and to improve hand-eye coordination.

Once you feel you're ready to move up to a larger caliber pistol (and that'll happen quicker than you might think), personally I'd skip the .40S&W and look at either the .45acp or 10mm AUTO.

Both are good for targets or terrorists, while the 10mm's power curve makes it additionally effective for handgun hunting (if you're into that) or protection against 2- or 4-legged critters if you're backpacking or camping. (My pet peeve: People who claim the 10mm is "only good for hunting" are usually the same people who've never shot one).

In other words, while the .45's fine, the 10mm's simply more versatile.

As Sean noted, you can find affordable 10mm ammo at places like Georgia Arms. Also, a wide variety of "factory" loads are available that cover the entire range of the 10mm's power curve, from mildish .40-level stuff to loads that safely exceed the original Norma specs. If you reload, there's a huge number of 10mm/.40cal bullet-weights to work with, running from 135grs to 220grs.

But starting your marksmanship training with a 9mm autoloader is a good way to begin. Have fun.

 

[Bobarino]

since nobody has stood up for my favorite round, the .40S&W, i will. Glock is an excellent choice for a first gun. they don't get much simpler or more reliable. (except H&K ) the .40 gives a bit of an advantage in energy, but in the case of Glock, gives up a few rounds in the capacity department. ammo that is nearly as cheap and many of them will convert to .357Sig with just a barrel change. but when forst starting in handguns, practice is the key and the cheaper it is, the more you can do, so i wouldhave to agree with everyone else and say a 9mm, is the way to go. the G19 is cheap to buy, cheap to feed, cheap accesories, widely available parts, reliable as a hammer, and will last well beyond 10,000 rounds.

your accuracy expectations are a little high. 3 inches at 25 yards is considered to be "combat accurate". for 1.5 inches, you'll have to move up to something like a Sig P210 or and H&K SOCOM, or some exotic race gun. heck i'm still happy if i can shoot 3 inches at 25 feet!

Bobby

 

[Frohickey]

How about buying all four?

And you call yourself a THR member.

 

[Grayrider]

Nice to see my fellow 10mm fans all here. We really should get together more often!



I must differ in opinion from a few of the gentlemen above on the suggestion of starting with a light recoiling round then working your way up. Sort of like saying why don't you learn to bust broncos by starting off riding cats.

I know many people do learn with a 9mm and work up without major difficulty. I started out that way, but noticed a problem with this plan. I came to see the 9mm as a "normal" level of recoil, and compared everything else to it. Thus a .22 seemed light, a .38 Super a little warm, and stuff in the .40+ range hot. I never could seem to handle a .45 or 10mm, much to my frustration.

So one day (determined to master the 1911 and get a grip on shooting .45) I just quit shooting 9mm. I put my wondernines in the safe and vowed to shoot only .45 and only a 1911 until I shot as well as I knew I could, and had seen others shoot. An amazing thing happened. The recoil went away. I stopped flinching, got used to the recoil, and .45 seemed "normal". Soon I was faster and more accurate with a .45 1911 than my friends with their 9mm pistols. I must credit some of that to (IMHO) the handling characteristics of the 1911. I was getting dual benefits by mastering the round and the platform I chose.

More recently I went back to 10mm. Suddenly it didn't seem much warmer than a .45. When it first came out I thought it was a monster, but back then it was in comparison to my "normal" choice of a 9mm. What happens now when I shoot 9mm? Feels like a featherweight.

So while I agree you should try different guns out for feel, I must say if you want to go warmer than 9mm from the beginning that would be skipping some steps in the process you may be better off skipping. I must also say that if the 1911 package interests you, by all means go ahead with that. Had I to do it all over again I would have stuck with that from the beginning.

GR

PS. I am also endorsing the .45 as your starter caliber. It is commonly available at good prices, no harder to shoot than the .40, and sits in some of the finest handgun designs available today. If you want 10mm later, you will end up with guns like 1911s, Glock, and Smith large frame autoloaders. The shape and configuration of these guns in .45 will be identical. In 9/40 some are smaller. Get used to what you will handle in 10mm, then when you get one later it will seem much the same.

 

[Frohickey]

If I would do it all over again, I would forget about the 40Short&Weak.

Start out with the 45ACP, and if you have the desire to go for the high capacity pistols, get yourself the 9mm. The 10mm is a good not-quite-exotic cartridge, and it has a strong following because of the cartridge's characteristics, being good SD, and enough power to hunt thin-skinned game with.

Of course, if you want to only stick with 0.452 diameter bullets, you could pick up the 45ACP standard load for your automatics for normal self-defense work. Load down the 45ACP to plinking loads for high volume plinking. Put in a stronger spring on your automatic for 45Super loads (approaching 10mm levels). Get a new slide and barrel/compensator for 460Rowland for hunting thin-skinned game (more power than 10mm levels). Get a modern revolver for 45Colt and hot potent loads for hunting thin-skinned game (more power than 10mm). Get a modern revolver for 454Casull and hot loads for hunting killer wabbits.

 

[Majic]

Grayrider, while you are advocating the idea of starting off with powerfull cartridges, you actually did as others have suggested. You Started with a 9mm and found you couldn't control the 10mm right off. So you moved up one power level to the .45acp to learn to master that. After the .45acp was mastered then you went to the 10mm with minimum trouble.
How can you advise others to do something that you yourself admit you couldn't do?

 

[Grayrider]

Majic,



I had wondered how long it would take for someone point out that seeming contradiction. I skipped some detail to avoid lengthening an already lengthy response. At the time I got into pistols, I spent very little total time with the 9mm before dropping it and focusing on the 45. I was working in law enforcement and did not trust the 9mm, so I moved fast to dump it for something else. While I did shoot 9mm enough to consider the recoil "normal", I cannot advocate that period spent as having won me any advantage. You see I also made some very bad choices for handgun models that served me poorly and I shot poorly. The result was I learned next to nothing about shooting--certainly not enough to claim I learned on a light caliber then worked up. Did I adapt to recoil? Perhaps. But had I started with a gun/caliber that fit me better in hindsight I think I would have progressed much more quickly. I think another lesson here is the point of finding a gun that fits you well and sticking with it. I didn't. That cost me a lot of time and ammo I should have spent on the 1911.

So my advice to the original poster is basically take some time deciding, get the gun and a caliber he wants from the git-go, then shoot, shoot, shoot....

GR

 

[artherd]

First handgun I ever shot was a G23 in .40S&W.

*Loved it*. Didn't just like it, I LOVED it! Recoil totally not what I expected, very controlable. Damn near bought one that week.

Next gun was a SIG 239 in 9mm, loved that too. Recoil is lighter, feels practically like a .22 (ok, no it dosen't, but it's headed there) found I could place folloow-up shots a little quicker...

Now it's getting intresting...


Do I get a high-cap 9? (G17, G19?) or a .40 I liked so much? Or possibly a 10mm G20 or .45 (need to shoot some of these in different sizes/weights, but G20 and 1911 or USP in 10mm and .45ACP/Super respectively.)


The one thing I would recomend is getting a gun that fits your hand well. It's hard to explain, but hold enough, and you will know what it feels like.


Note, I can hardly tell the difference between .40S&W, and the 9mm. There is one, but mild.
I put near 100 rounds through both, and over 100 through my (ok, compensated and 10 lbs with scope, but still!) .30-06, and didn't want to leave the range when the sun set. So maybe I like (or at least tolerate) recoil?

 

[N3rday]

9mm for plinking, definitely. Cheap, and a satisfactory manstopper.

.40 and .45 have about the same stopping power, but cost significantly more than 9mm. better for self-defense than a 9mm, but that won't matter too much...shot placement is more important than caliber.

10mm has the best stopping power out of the four. If I was to fight a bear with a handgun, it would be a 10mm. Its expensive though, so unless you are rich, go with something else.

aww...no .357 sig?

 

[HBK]

I would recommend either a Walther P-99 or a Glock 19. I am partial to the Walther, but the Glock is a great gun. You can find high caps for either gun, the Walther holds 16 and the Glock 15. The 10mm....that is a sweet round, but alas, gun makers have not provided us with many chouices there. The Glock 29, IMO, is the best 10mm currently manufactured. I love the 10mm round, but for your purposes, the 9mm is the way to go. That is, if you can't buy both!

 

[JShirley]

Any handgun capable of being carried well concealed will be underpowered compared to a shoulder arm.

With that in mind, rapid repeat shots matter.

In any case, I would largely make my decision based on whether you load, or not.

If you load, get a 10mm. You can start off with powder puff .40/.45 ACP standard pressure loads, about 980 fps with a 180 grain bullet.

If you don't load, and are on a budget, start with a dependable but cost-effective 9mm, such as a used Glock 19. CZ's seem to be available at good prices right now, as well. It sounds like you want a fairly versatile handgun, so be sure to get something you can conceal without too much difficulty. Glocks, Kahrs, and Kel-Tecs all work well for this, though the KT will probably have too much recoil and too little punch (3" barrel) for your purposes. (If you can shoot one well, though, you'll be able to shoot a Glock or 1911 like it's full auto!)

Have you written off revolvers? I know I had no attraction towards them when I first began buying firearms, but now, I'm appreciating them more every day. A .357 K-frame with a 3 or 4" barrel will cost less used than virtually any of the autoloaders mentioned, can shoot cheap .38 Special ammo, and can be loaded up to good deer loads.

Luck with whatever you decide.

John

 

[cheygriz]

I believe the 9MM is your best choice. The full size Glock 17 is one of the best platforms, although the Beretta 92 and the Sig P226 are superb as well.

Don't get hung up on the "caliber wars." The 9MM, .40, 10MM and .45 will all get the job done equally well if you put the bullet in the right place. They will all fail if you don't.