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The ACLU, an idea

Discussion in 'Activism Discussion and Planning' started by Caliper_Mi, Jan 28, 2010.

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  1. Caliper_Mi

    Caliper_Mi Member

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    Had an idea recently. I'm not sure how everyone here feels about the ACLU, but we can all agree that they are a longstanding and active organization, but a little weak on the 2A. The ACLU's official position on the 2A is that it is a "collective" right (whatever that means) see: http://www.aclu.org/racial-justice_...law-reform_immigrants-rights/second-amendment

    Well, apparently with the recent financial turmoil, one of the ACLU's major donors is unable to make his/her/their regular donation. This has left the ACLU with a 20% budget shortfall and they are of course looking to their other members to help make this up.

    Sounds like an opportunity to me. We are all accustom to contacting local Senators and Representatives, why not write the ACLU? Would you write the ACLU a check (or a larger one) if they stood up for the 2A as much as they did the 1A and other rights? Tell them how you feel about the 2A. Tell them that there is no collective right without an individual right. Remind them that "The People" referred to in all the rest of The Bill of Rights are individuals. Let them know that their stance on the 2A is preventing you from writing them a check! (or a bigger one)

    Go here: http://www.aclu.org/contact-us and let them know. Let's see what we can accomplish, right?
     
  2. fletchbutt152

    fletchbutt152 Member

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    I suppose, but they're not gettin' a cent until they spend some good money promoting
    2A on the all media circuits.
     
  3. Ashcons

    Ashcons Member

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    I agree with your sentiment and idea, but from what I recall on their mission-statement-type of literature and arguments, they are politically prone to follow progressive-democrat themes, including supporting gun control. Without being down about 100% of their budget and clearing out some detritus in the board/ED position, I doubt their political motivation for pushing agenda would change too much :)

    I did send them a short contact e-mail expressing my desire to donate to causes that promote 2A freedom, though.
     
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2010
  4. mljdeckard

    mljdeckard Member

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    I agree. What is to prevent them from taking the money and blowing you off? If they came to me WITH the NRA-ILA with a new leaf having been turned over, I would.....read their pamphlet very carefully.
     
  5. PublicRelations

    PublicRelations Member

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    That's a great idea that can't hurt.

    Why not send them an email suggesting they support 2A as strongly as they support anything else.

    It cannot do our cause any harm and has the potential to do great good.

    I will send them an email. :)
     
  6. Ashcons

    Ashcons Member

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    Their reply

    Dear Mr. _____,
    Thank you for the question about the ACLU's position on the Second Amendment. The national ACLU is neutral on the issue of gun control.

    We believe that the Constitution contains no barriers to reasonable regulations of gun ownership. If we can license and register cars, we can license and register guns. The question therefore is not whether to restrict arms ownership, but how much to restrict it. If that is a question left open by the Constitution, then it is a question for Congress to decide.

    You can find more about the ACLU's positions at http://www.aclu.org

    If you are not already an ACLU member, we encourage you to help support our aggressive work on the issues you care about. To join please visit http://www.aclu.org or call 1-888-567-ACLU. They seem to ignore that without individual rights, there are no collective rights. Wonder how they'd feel about licensing speeches or writing.

    Sincerely,
    D. Barber
    Correspondence Manager, American Civil Liberties Union


    As you can see, they're "neutral" on gun control. Obviously gun registration is no different than car registration. This irony really made me laugh, "we encourage you to help support our aggressive work on the issues you care about." They seem to selectively ignore the fact that without individual rights, there are no collective rights. Bet I could guess how they would feel about licensing for speaking and writing.
     
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2010
  7. shockwave

    shockwave Member

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    Hard to understand why they get so demonized. They defend Nazis if Constitutional rights are at risk. The ACLU is an extremely neutral organization that follows the letter of the law. It's just that when the law is accurately followed, it's less strictly conservative than many would prefer. The NLA is our PAC and our Association and they represent the interests and rights of gun owners, as well as promoting safe and responsible ownership.

    You support the ACLU if you are concerned about civil liberties and the Bill of Rights in general. Support the NRA if you want to actively support the 2nd Amendment.
     
  8. TexasRifleman

    TexasRifleman Moderator Emeritus

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    Not hardly.



    That's far from neutral.

    http://www.aclu.org/blog/organization-news-and-highlights/heller-decision-and-second-amendment

    Right before Heller was decided their website basically said "We agree with Miller". They are an anti organization plain and simple.

    Old joke; How does an ACLU lawyer count to 10? 1,3,4,5,......
     
  9. Ashcons

    Ashcons Member

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    Apparently sarcasm isn't compatible with the Internet :)
     
  10. TexasRifleman

    TexasRifleman Moderator Emeritus

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    Grrrr.... Sorry, went right over my head LOL

    The subject tends to send me into a fit ;)
     
  11. JImbothefiveth

    JImbothefiveth Member

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    They get demonised because of stuff like the letter they sent to Ashcons.

    They're not even good with that. You know they once stopped a high school class president from speaking because of her religious views? A high school class president for crying out loud.


    In other words, they are open to an assault weapons ban. Show me where there are cars in the constitution!.
     
  12. Caliper_Mi

    Caliper_Mi Member

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    Sorry, didn't mean to imply that you should send a letter with money. Just like with legislators - write and express your opinion but base your vote (money) on actions.

    I don't think this is too different from writing a known anti-gun politician. You are not likely to get a positive response, but if you don't let your voice be heard your chance of a positive response is zero. ;)
     
  13. rm23

    rm23 Member

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    Really? Look at the cases they take. They don't give a damn about the Constitution, all they want to do is further liberal agenda. They care more about removing manger sets and crosses and gays being boy scout leaders than anything else.
     
  14. Bullnettles

    Bullnettles Member

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    This is the point, to make them go in another direction. Sadly, support can be bought easily...
     
  15. shockwave

    shockwave Member

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    They will go to bat for anyone if their Constitutional rights are being infringed. I've seen enough cases to know that. Thing is, the "ACLU-bashers" only talk about the ones that bother them. When they went to bat for the Skokie marchers, they got immunity from the "they're all liberals!" insult. Anyway, I don't really care all that much, I just don't like to see untruth on the Net and the ACLU are not the bad guys some people make them out to be. Just like the NRA is not a bunch of crazed gun-waving freakos.

    And to reiterate that point, the ACLU is not in the business of protecting the Second Amendment - they protect citizens whose rights are being violated. The NRA-ILA in particular is the advocacy organization that politicians listen to, and if you want to donate to a group protecting our interests, they're the best choice.
     
  16. hso

    hso Moderator Staff Member

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    I want to remind everyone of the rules for Activism that are clearly posted in the stickie.

    Firstly, naysaying someone's plan is one of the things we ask members not to do. Constructive criticism that enhances the plan presented by it's originator is fine, but that's as far as it goes.

    Secondly, Activism isn't a discussion forum. It's for presenting plans. Activism Discussion is the place if you want to talk about activism efforts and where glimmers of ideas can be hashed out into real plans. The toleration for negativism is a little broader there, but still not helpful.

    Thirdly, we're supposed to be open to all ideas in support of RKBA. Every little bit helps and the combined effort of all elements of the RKBA community is needed. Even the ones "you" may think are naive or silly or a waste of time. Afford the same respect to other members as they're expected to show for your "silly" ideas.

    Since this is more of a discussion than a solid plan I'm moving it to the discussion forum for consideration.
     
  17. TexasRifleman

    TexasRifleman Moderator Emeritus

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    Pretty much everyone agrees Richard Heller's rights were being violated, even the Supreme Court.

    That the ACLU continues to maintain that his rights were NOT violated doesn't really fall in line with your post does it?
     
  18. DeepSouth

    DeepSouth Member

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    I feel that America and the 2A would be better off without them.

    I think our donations would be in better hands with the NRA, Guns Owners of America or similar organizations.
     
  19. rm23

    rm23 Member

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    Is the ACLU in the business of protecting the 1st Amendment? the 4th? the 6th? You better believe it. The 2nd is just as much a civil right as anything else and if I had to pick one from the whole Bill of Rights, honestly, that'd be my pick. So for you to say they protect people whose rights are violated is a total crock.

    Go to the ACLU's website. They've got an article celebrating the 37th anniversary of Roe v. Wade (which is pretty disturbing). In the end of June, check their site again to see if they celebrate D.C. v. Heller. Even if they don't fight for the 2nd, they should celebrate the freedom that was confirmed in that case.

    Also, there's a high roader who has a quote from one of the founders of the ACLU. I can't quote the whole thing exactly, but it says something to the effect of, "Americans will never knowingly adopt socialism, but they will end up getting it by constantly accepting liberalism."
     
  20. shockwave

    shockwave Member

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    Roe v Wade is defense of privacy. Look, this isn't an issue. Support the NRA, Gun Owners of America, but don't go waving the bloody hatchet at organizations that are focused on defending our freedoms. The ACLU isn't in the business of taking away anybody's rights. That's not their lookout. When an individual is being abused of his or her rights, they may take an interest. The main point here still being that they are not an advocacy group, they are pro-bono lawyers fulfilling the law as they see it.

    Probably better that we have them around, what, when the government starts stripping you naked in airports, preventing you from buying tickets with cash, they're the ones that might stand up and take your case. The NRA is the best organization I know of that keeps our rights protected and thank God we fund them well.
     
  21. TexasRifleman

    TexasRifleman Moderator Emeritus

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    In Heller we see a case specifically naming a right and the ACLU says they disagree with it even BEING a right. And it's specifically named in the Constitution.

    If they are "pro rights" they should be glad of the Heller ruling even if they choose not to become involved in gun rights cases.

    That they specifically state that they continue to disagree even post Heller makes them an anti organization no matter how you try to spin it.

    If they were neutral on the gun issue they would not word their response the way they do.

    If you want to support the ACLU in the other things they do that's fine, and I have no doubt they have done some good, but their stance on the Second is indefensible.
     
  22. rm23

    rm23 Member

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    I hate NY... so I moved to Texas!
    I live in upstate NY. To purchase a pistol, which was confirmed as my right in Heller, I need to fill out an application, find four character references, get fingerprinted, have a background check and register each pistol with the state.

    Now imagine, just for a moment that the same was true for abortions. What would the ACLU say?

    Your right to having an abortion wouldn't be taken away, but it would be so difficult and such a hassle, that you would likely change your mind and forget about it.

    My civil rights are violated every single day. My constitutional right to bear arms is infringed upon and where are they?

    The sickest and most dispicable thing about the ACLU is, if that hypothetical was true and I was a woman that wanted to kill my baby, they'd be dying to take the case.
     
  23. Caliper_Mi

    Caliper_Mi Member

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    Well, seeing as this has gone to discussion...

    My right to keep and bear arms is infringed, even further if you consider the militia aspect of the 2A. I cannot freely buy automatic weapons, never mind more destructive weapons. How can a militia be effective if it cannot face an opposing modern military force on equal footing?

    While I do not really agree with the NFA, at heart it is a tax and as long as the tax is not onerous I'm not going to go so far as to say taxation is infringement. What I would honestly like to see however is someone take on the Hughes Amendment. Hughes does infringe by being a de-facto ban of automatic weapons. The average person can no longer outfit themselves in a manner reasonable for a militia.

    While I don't see the ACLU easily changing that far, a not-anti-gun ACLU would help to build legal precedent for others to move in that direction.
     
  24. Lou McGopher

    Lou McGopher Member

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    Ask them if they're okay with licensing and registering of printers, printing presses, and websites.

    Then ask them again if they'll consider supporting 2A so you can make a donation to them.
     
  25. kahrdoor

    kahrdoor Member

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    A donation

    As an ex boyscout I will be more than happy to send a check to the ACLU, the same day they declare that attacks on them off limit.
     
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