The AR-15 all famous m4 "Chart" that some swear by.

Discussion in 'Rifle Country' started by helz_mcfugly, Dec 13, 2008.

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  1. rob_s

    rob_s Member

    Jul 19, 2006
    SE FL
    I have to wonder if some of you people read the explanation of features or if you just see that your pet gun doesn't have as many Xs as you'd like and roll back to hysteria.

    There's all kinds of comical posts in this thread like "who needs a black insert" and "what difference does it make if there's parkerizing under the FSB or not". READ the explanation of features and decide if you need these features or not.

    The problem with the Chat is simply that most people can't read it objectively. Some see it and find that their pet rifle has a lot of Xs and use it to justify their purchase. Some see it and find that their pet rifle doesn't have a lot of Xs and think it means the chart is "bunk".

    The Chart is a collection of facts. If you don't understand, or don't care, what those facts are and/or how they relate to your needs in a firearm then ignore it. But that doesn't change the facts.

    And I'll say one more time, since people continue to go on about how "milspec doesn't mean anything". Milspec is the BASE standard for rifles of this type. Now go back and look at the Chart and look at how few makers even come close to meeting that standard.
  2. hobgob

    hobgob Member

    Oct 22, 2007
    I personally hate that chart and all that it stands for!
  3. ugaarguy

    ugaarguy Moderator Staff Member

    Mar 19, 2006
    In a good carbine course you'll run 1,000 to 1,300 rounds of ammo through the rifle in two days. It's much harder use than DCM competition. Call any major school / instructor and they'll tell you what works and what fails. Remember, we're also talking about 16" barrel defensive carbines, not 20" barrel DCM rifles. The shorter gas system leads to more force and higher velocity on the bolt during extraction, which is why the QC/QA processes on the bolt are so important.
    The TDP doesn't call for beefed up extractor springs and inserts on rifles. See above comments on bolt velocity and force with carbine length gas systems. The color of the insert is merely a quick visual reference to make sure the right insert is in carbine bolts.
    Again, more violent extraction on carbines. M16 carriers both cock on the carrier (protecting the firing pin), and add weight (slightly slowing BCG velocity). Combined with an H buffer they help tame the recoil impulse and smooth extraction on carbines.
    With the volume of fire done in a good carbine course you'll easily overheat red loctite.
    The point is that you shouldn't have to do it yourself. It's a known reliability issue. If the company is too lazy, cheap, or indifferent to perform this essential task at the factory, then it tells me they're a cheap assembler, not a real manufacturer.

    Go back and read the explanation of features. As has already been said, this is a compilation of data -nothing more, nothing less. Bartholomew Roberts wrote about all these corner cutting procedures in the thread "34 Ways To Cut Corners When Manufacturing an AR-15", which is stickied in the THR Rifle Forum Reading Library. Rob just put the data into chart that's a quick reference showing which makers do what. He's said all along to simply understand the features and only pay for as much rifle as you want or need.

    Last, for those who want to start calling names - Quit! It isn't high road, it's against forum rules - remember attack the argument, not the person. The name calling and cussing detracts from a heated, but otherwise civil, discussion. We can strongly disagree and still be polite about it. Cussing and calling each other names ends discussion and starts a yelling match.
  4. XavierBreath

    XavierBreath Member

    Jan 6, 2003
    If you are unable to debate a subject without namecalling and irrationality, expect your thread to be closed and PMs to be sent.
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