The AR charging handle...why?

[trackskippy]

@trackskippy , your banter back and forth with CraigC has been rapid fire and humorous from over here in the cheap seats (sorry CraigC) but you got my curiosity aroused as to how you can operate the safety and mag release with the shooting hand without letting go of the pistol grip( breaking your shooting position). I also wear large to x large gloves, and for the life of me I can't figure out how to reach the safety or mag release with the shooting hand while holding a mag in the left, as you suggest. Not interested in the speed of it, just how is it possible? Would you make us a little video to show me and the others how?

All you do is reach up with your middle finger and sweep it off. (I said it was simple. ) I don't have death grip on the grip and my hand has room to move.

Same for the mag release, just push it with your middle finger. That grip is a little tighter. With the muzzle slightly down, the mag will fall right out.

Of course, Im doing this with a "stock" AK. I haven't tried to Americanize it with parts that change up the geometry of things. Standard pistol grip, standard selector, furniture, etc.. Its an AK, not an AR.

ETA: One thing all AK's benefit from too is, the selector and mag release are "stampings" and tend to have sharp edges because of it. If you break those sharp edges/points where they tend to grab with a file, things work a lot smoother.

 

[CraigC]

All you do is reach up with your middle finger and sweep it off. (I said it was simple. ) I don't have death grip on the grip and my hand has room to move.

Same for the mag release, just push it with your middle finger. That grip is a little tighter. With the muzzle slightly down, the mag will fall right out.

Of course, Im doing this with a "stock" AK. I haven't tried to Americanize it with parts that change up the geometry of things. Standard pistol grip, standard selector, furniture, etc.. Its an AK, not an AR.

ETA: One thing all AK's benefit from too is, the selector and mag release are "stampings" and tend to have sharp edges because of it. If you break those sharp edges/points where they tend to grab with a file, things work a lot smoother.

That's what I thought. In your rush to score a hit on me, you apparently you missed the fine details.

You still have to shift your grip to manipulate the safety and the mag release has to be operated with the left hand. Whereas both can be accomplished on the AR with the trigger hand, without even shifting from a shooting grip. Makes for snappier reloads.

I didn't say it couldn't be done. I said you couldn't do it without breaking your shooting grip. If you're shifting your hand forward to manipulate those controls, you're "breaking your shooting grip". These are facts. Not a lack in experience or training. The aftermarket safety on at least one of the rifles in the video (that you probably didn't watch) is a good example of a fix for that particular issue. I've also never seen anyone running an AK fast that operated the mag release that way.

Except the railed top cover, everything I've done to my rifle is on the front end. NOTHING about the modifications (one modification, the Alpha forend) affects the issues we're discussing here, the basic operation of the rifle. You just used that as an excuse to denigrate me and the rifle, obviously without even understanding the purpose of it.

Of course, Im doing this with a "stock" AK. I haven't tried to Americanize it with parts that change up the geometry of things. Standard pistol grip, standard selector, furniture, etc.. Its an AK, not an AR.

No, it's an AK with ample wiggle room for modernization, just as was done with the AR platform, within the more restricted confines of the basic design. It's not an AR stock or grip, it's Magpul furniture designed for the AK. Unlike the M4-style buttstock that is on the actual Russian military counterpart. Your comments about stock length or "changing geometry" make no sense at all. Overall, the above statement doesn't seem to have any merit whatsoever. Seems more than a little hypocritical to laud the AR's modernization but denigrate the same effort on the AK platform.

 

[BreechFace]

With a stock AK grip and safety selector, I with size L hands have to break my grip to manipulate.

On my AK’s I run a selector with a shelf that has been tuned (selector massaged for correct tension, as well as rough edges eased). With this I can manipulate my AK’s without breaking my grip.

As far as mag changes swiping with a fresh mag at the back of the release and spent mag drops the mag free then rock and lock the fresh mag home. Then underneath with the offside hand to rack the charging handle. One can get proficient and fast, but never as fast as one can get with an AR with equal time on both systems.

The AR is just simply more refined in ergos in respect to minimizing movements and manipulations to run.

All that said, I still really like AK’s, just something about them that are cool. Like running a standard tranny big block muscle car.

 

[BreechFace]

Oh and I’ll just leave this here for comedic relief…

 

[halfmoonclip]

adoption by LE and/or military are probably the biggest drivers of civilian popularity in small arms,

It certainly fed the desire for 'forbidden fruit' during the Clinton Ban. Before we weren't allowed one, most shooters had little interest in ARs. I know I didn't, in any case, despite recent experience with one in the military. I did want a 1911.

As a squaddie once said, ". . . can ye nay coont to thirty?"

Was it 5 or was it 6...do you feel lucky, punk?
Gotta tell you, if it was a two way range, counting shots wouldn't be a personal priority, though a rough count would be useful.
Remember, the two loudest sounds in the world; click, when you expect bang, and bang, when you expect click.
BTW, lysander, who was the Celt?
Moon

 

[.455_Hunter]

Like many here, I got my first exposure to the platform at age 18 courtesy of Uncle Sam. Even as a lefty, the GI charging handle has never given me any problems on the A1, A2, M4 or my current civilian clones.

 

[trackskippy]

That's what I thought. In your rush to score a hit on me, you apparently you missed the fine details.


I didn't say it couldn't be done. I said you couldn't do it without breaking your shooting grip. If you're shifting your hand forward to manipulate those controls, you're "breaking your shooting grip". These are facts. Not a lack in experience or training. The aftermarket safety on at least one of the rifles in the video (that you probably didn't watch) is a good example of a fix for that particular issue. I've also never seen anyone running an AK fast that operated the mag release that way.

Except the railed top cover, everything I've done to my rifle is on the front end. NOTHING about the modifications (one modification, the Alpha forend) affects the issues we're discussing here, the basic operation of the rifle. You just used that as an excuse to denigrate me and the rifle, obviously without even understanding the purpose of it.



No, it's an AK with ample wiggle room for modernization, just as was done with the AR platform, within the more restricted confines of the basic design. It's not an AR stock or grip, it's Magpul furniture designed for the AK. Unlike the M4-style buttstock that is on the actual Russian military counterpart. Your comments about stock length or "changing geometry" make no sense at all. Overall, the above statement doesn't seem to have any merit whatsoever. Seems more than a little hypocritical to laud the AR's modernization but denigrate the same effort on the AK platform.

LOL. As much as you want it to be, this isnt about "you" Craig, its about running an AK. If its still a challenge for you, spend some more time with it. You can nit pick all you want, what next, criticize my spelling trying to make some imaginary point? Time to grow up and move on to the 4th grade.

My hand is on the grip when I work the controls, just like it is on my AR's. I don't remove it from the grip to work any of the controls, even the charging handle. As soon as I sweep the selector down, my fingers are where they need to be on the grip to shoot the gun. Whats the problem?

Maybe you should give the mag release thing a try, its basically as simple as dropping an AR mag and the mag well is empty when the fresh one gets there. No fooling around beating on the gun trying to get the mag out.

Just judging by the looks of the gun you posted up, its not had much use. Theres barely a drag line on the selector or a ding anywhere. What other AK are you using to work with them to know them so well if youre not using that one?

 

[trackskippy]

With a stock AK grip and safety selector, I with size L hands have to break my grip to manipulate.

On my AK’s I run a selector with a shelf that has been tuned (selector massaged for correct tension, as well as rough edges eased). With this I can manipulate my AK’s without breaking my grip.

As far as mag changes swiping with a fresh mag at the back of the release and spent mag drops the mag free then rock and lock the fresh mag home. Then underneath with the offside hand to rack the charging handle. One can get proficient and fast, but never as fast as one can get with an AR with equal time on both systems.

The AR is just simply more refined in ergos in respect to minimizing movements and manipulations to run.

All that said, I still really like AK’s, just something about them that are cool. Like running a standard tranny big block muscle car.

No doubt the AR gets the nod for being a tad ahead, at least for those who are practiced and accustomed to using them. Do you suppose someone trained on an AK with no experience with an AR would say the same about the AK, when handed an AR and told to work it without knowing it or having much experience with it? Its all what you know.

The AR is "our" gun, and it makes sense that more people have experience with them, and anyone else's is likely going to be subpar, especially if you have no experience with them. Just look at how a lot of people try and shoulder an AK and bitch about the stock being too short or the controls being screwy.

Only way to really know, is to spend some time learning the other one, as its used by those who use them, to see a closer to real difference. As Ive said a number of times now, they are "pretty close" in reality, and not all that far apart, if you're familiar with both. The AR still gets the edge, but the AK is no slacker if you know how to work it. A red dot on both brings things even closer.

 

[CraigC]

The AR is just simply more refined in ergos in respect to minimizing movements and manipulations to run.

Exactly!

All that said, I still really like AK’s, just something about them that are cool. Like running a standard tranny big block muscle car.

Me too and as I said before, a lot of the gripes I always heard from AR fans seemed to have been exaggerated or unfounded. Yet somehow 'some' seem to have gotten the idea that I'm denigrating them. Wouldn't have spent $500-$600 on the Alpha kit if I didn't like them. I'd like to have two or three more. I'd like to have a 9mm pistol version, along with one of the modernized 5.56 variants.

The AR is "our" gun, and it makes sense that more people have experience with them, and anyone else's is likely going to be subpar, especially if you have no experience with them. Just look at how a lot of people try and shoulder an AK and bitch about the stock being too short or the controls being screwy.

This ain't a brain-dead Ford vs Chevy argument. I'm not emotionally invested in either platform. The AK is a bit slower to manipulate because it's slower to manipulate. The AR's controls are situated in such a way that it is quicker and easier to run fast. The AK requires more physical movement to accomplish the same tasks. Again, that's fact, not opinion. The "modernization" mostly just allows us to attach more crap to them, which folks may or may not have a use for. You clearly think they should remain as basic rifles and that's fine. I'm more interested in increasing their capability. You're also making it a way bigger deal than it really is.

No doubt the AR gets the nod for being a tad ahead, at least for those who are practiced and accustomed to using them. Do you suppose someone trained on an AK with no experience with an AR would say the same about the AK, when handed an AR and told to work it without knowing it or having much experience with it? Its all what you know.

Now take this logic, flip our roles and insert it into the single action revolver discussion we had recently.

 

[BreechFace]

No doubt the AR gets the nod for being a tad ahead, at least for those who are practiced and accustomed to using them. Do you suppose someone trained on an AK with no experience with an AR would say the same about the AK, when handed an AR and told to work it without knowing it or having much experience with it? Its all what you know.

The AR is "our" gun, and it makes sense that more people have experience with them, and anyone else's is likely going to be subpar, especially if you have no experience with them. Just look at how a lot of people try and shoulder an AK and bitch about the stock being too short or the controls being screwy.

Only way to really know, is to spend some time learning the other one, as its used by those who use them, to see a closer to real difference. As Ive said a number of times now, they are "pretty close" in reality, and not all that far apart, if you're familiar with both. The AR still gets the edge, but the AK is no slacker if you know how to work it. A red dot on both brings things even closer.

I think they are closer than people think they are, but probably think there’s more separation than your experiences.

Not discounting your experience, but an AR on tactical reload drills is really hard to beat on a timer. The mag release with thumb, straight insert mag well while thumbing bolt release is just quicker in my experience than a swipe, rock and lock, then underhand release of the bolt on an AK.

There’s just more movements on an AK, no way to get around it. The AR combines mag release, mag insert and bolt release ALL with offhand and all with mount contorting one’s thumb its right there.

 

[BreechFace]

This guy even best his AK time with an AR by more than 1.5 seconds faster (60% faster) on a tactical reload while sporting an accent.

Found a short one minute video.

AK vs AR | Fast Reload

A quick comparison of emergency reload time between Tula AKS74u and Windham Weaponry AR15 with 11.5" barrel. There was 1 bullet in the chamber, after firing ...

youtu.be

 

[CraigC]

This guy even best his AK time with an AR by more than 1.5 seconds faster (60% faster) on a tactical reload while sporting an accent.

Found a short one minute video.

AK vs AR | Fast Reload

A quick comparison of emergency reload time between Tula AKS74u and Windham Weaponry AR15 with 11.5" barrel. There was 1 bullet in the chamber, after firing ...

youtu.be

That's the gist of it in a nutshell. It's not a huge difference, never said it was but it is measurable.

 

[adcoch1]

All you do is reach up with your middle finger and sweep it off. (I said it was simple. ) I don't have death grip on the grip and my hand has room to move.

Same for the mag release, just push it with your middle finger. That grip is a little tighter. With the muzzle slightly down, the mag will fall right out.

Of course, Im doing this with a "stock" AK. I haven't tried to Americanize it with parts that change up the geometry of things. Standard pistol grip, standard selector, furniture, etc.. Its an AK, not an AR.

ETA: One thing all AK's benefit from too is, the selector and mag release are "stampings" and tend to have sharp edges because of it. If you break those sharp edges/points where they tend to grab with a file, things work a lot smoother.

Ah, middle finger. Only way I could reach either was that way. Couldn't figure out what I was missing. Been playing with AK pattern rifles for a long time, but sometimes you learn something new.

On the other point, I always take a file to all the edges on any AK I have ownership of. They can be really sharp otherwise...

 

[lysanderxiii]

It certainly fed the desire for 'forbidden fruit' during the Clinton Ban. Before we weren't allowed one, most shooters had little interest in ARs. I know I didn't, in any case, despite recent experience with one in the military. I did want a 1911.

Was it 5 or was it 6...do you feel lucky, punk?
Gotta tell you, if it was a two way range, counting shots wouldn't be a personal priority, though a rough count would be useful.
Remember, the two loudest sounds in the world; click, when you expect bang, and bang, when you expect click.
BTW, lysander, who was the Celt?
Moon

He was a guy that had served in the Royal Fusiliers during "The Troubles", got out, moved the the US and for some reason decided to join our army. I met him in Korea. From day one they were trained to count rounds and change magazines on 19 (L1A1) and later 29 (L85A1). Because this was drilled in to them from the first day they ever shot their rifle, it was second nature, and if there was a lull long enough that you might loose count, you switched out for fresh magazine of twenty. The British never liked the idea of advertising you were out of ammo with a bolt locked back.

With training it's easy. He told us this while we were playing aggressor force, and naturally we didn't believe he could do it, so we quizzed him all through the exercise. He was never wrong.

His best story was his first ride in a "Pig" (Humber APC) in N.I.

 

[Enfieldier]

Like many here, I got my first exposure to the platform at age 18 courtesy of Uncle Sam. Even as a lefty, the GI charging handle has never given me any problems on the A1, A2, M4 or my current civilian clones.

I'm also left handed and was issued an XM16E1 at Ft. Knox BT. I learned how to use it just fine. I went on to the A1, A2, and M4. Anyone who has operated in a truly dusty environment will appreciate how well sealed the M16 type action is. Some M1 rifles choked when used in Korea's dust. SLA Marshall documented Infantry having problems with their M1s failing to function due to dust ingestion. The rifles would fire but would short stroke and have to be worked by hand. I'll take the traditional rear charging on the AR over a side charger with open slot any day.

 

[General Geoff]

Anyone who has operated in a truly dusty environment will appreciate how well sealed the M16 type action is. Some M1 rifles choked when used in Korea's dust. SLA Marshall documented Infantry having problems with their M1s failing to function due to dust ingestion. The rifles would fire but would short stroke and have to be worked by hand.

That is one of the greatest advantages to the AR platform: How well-sealed the action is from contaminants.

 

[halfmoonclip]

That is one of the greatest advantages to the AR platform: How well-sealed the action is from contaminants.

Or a reflection that Stoner recognized the potential for mischief in a finely fit machine, in a dirty environment. Yes, the platform is well sealed against junk. Presume it has worked well in the sandbox.
Moon

 

[halfmoonclip]

The M-16 charging handle is way behind almost everything else in ergonomics as far as I’m concerned (not counting the very worst, the M-3A1 Grease Gun charging set up)

Personally like a forward op handle, and have them on some other platforms. There is a cool factor to slap charging like an MP-5.
But the charging handle on the AR works well enough, in conjunction with the rest of the platform.
Our tankers, in my old Guard company, had Grease Guns. They were the most gadawful contraptions, and it did make me nervous, sticking my finger in that thing. Speaking of dust covers, that was the safety on those things.
Moon

 

[trackskippy]

Most people dislike the HK's charging system and the fact that they don't have a BHO. Just another thing that is different/foreign to those who haven't yet learned them.

Whats wrong with the M3A1? Did you prefer the M3's crank charger more?

Those open bolt SMG's can be a terror in the hands of those who don't understand that that bolt locked back like that, isn't a BHO feature. At least not in the way they think is.

 

[Enfieldier]

Most people dislike the HK's charging system and the fact that they don't have a BHO. Just another thing that is different/foreign to those who haven't yet learned them.

Whats wrong with the M3A1? Did you prefer the M3's crank charger more?

Those open bolt SMG's can be a terror in the hands of those who don't understand that that bolt locked back like that, isn't a BHO feature. At least not in the way they think is.

The HK charging system is a pain for left handers on the range and possibly deadly on the battlefield. Try working the action quickly on a G3 while prone when left handed. I'm left handed and owned a HK91. Not my favorite rifle. At least the FAL has the charging handle located near your hand when shooting if you have to clear a function problem.

 

[trackskippy]

I had a couple of 91's and an MP5, and a number of people who shot mine bitched about their MOA. They are a bit different from most other things and do take some getting used to.

A lot of the complaints were about the charging handle and HK would have been better off using one of the larger G3 winter handles (I had these on my guns) or one of the extended 21 handles on the 91's instead of that streamlined version they had on them. The commercial guns were different than the issue guns in a couple of ways, and some of that was due to keeping them compliant.

Not understanding how the guns worked was another issue and how you worked that charging handle and why was something that you need to understand if you don't want trouble. Again, just a different gun with a different operating system and MOA, and like any of them, you need to understand them if you want to be able to get the most out of them.

As far as the FAL (and L1A1) vs HK, I would think for a lefty, they both could be a pain (as would anything made for a right handed shooter), especially the Brit L1A1 versions of the FAL with its folding charging handle. Always preferred the original FN and Israeli version knobs over the folder. At least with those, and with all guns that have a solid charging handle, you can always get medival on them if you get a bad stoppage. The HK does have a bit of leverage advantage there over things like the AR's, but neither of those give a real easy solution.

Once I figured the HK's out, I didn't have any issues with them. All of the HK guns Ive owned or shot were accurate and reliable and I never had any problems working them or shooting well with them.

HK was the innovator of a lot of things we take for granted today across all the different platforms. Prior to the G3/91, things like R/R. no zero loss optic mounts, push pin confiuration changes, a great/realistic "combat" iron sight set up, the predecessor to many of the current sling systems. ect. were for the most part, unknown.

 

[Crosshair]

Yea, I'm not a fan of it. Just one reason of many I've shunned the AR design. You're clearly not alone, as it's a feature that just about nobody has copied.

 

[lysanderxiii]

Or a reflection that Stoner recognized the potential for mischief in a finely fit machine, in a dirty environment. Yes, the platform is well sealed against junk. Presume it has worked well in the sandbox.
Moon

It's a double-edged sword. If it is sealed up and dirt does get it, it can't get out.

If you close the dust cover and keep a magazine in an M16 and throw it in the mud when you take it out it works pretty well. If the magazine is out and the cover open and you throw in it the mud, you have a devil of a time getting it to run short of fully stripping and cleaning it.

 

[cfullgraf]

I can adapt to the “shortcomings” of an AR in exchange for the accuracy that is easily obtainable from the platform.

 

[halfmoonclip]

I can adapt to the “shortcomings” of an AR in exchange for the accuracy that is easily obtainable from the platform.

The package has a great rep for accuracy; mentioned previously that the absence of things rattling around on the barrel is likely a help.
Moon