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The BATF Paid Me A Visit Yesterday

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by braxton14, Jan 5, 2013.

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  1. Onmilo

    Onmilo Member

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    Sideplate is marked:
    Browning Machine Gun
    I thought semi auto guns had to have that marked out and:
    Semi Auto Only
    stamped below the markings,,,

    More to add.
    Don't worry, you won't be charged with anything, you didn't take possession of the gun, but for whatever reason, they are looking at the doings of the manufacturer.
    You may want to give them a call and let them know what is going on...
     
  2. HOOfan_1

    HOOfan_1 Member

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    I also wonder if the ATF realized they had no right to seize them, and since they overstepped their bounds, they came up with the BS story about being able to convert them to real firearms.


    My next project....easily converting this

    tumblr_l1g007MwjN1qb3mmfo1_400.jpg

    into this

    M1A1-Abrams-USMC-01.jpg
     
  3. 7.62 Nato

    7.62 Nato Member

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    Some people assume too much.
     
  4. NavyLCDR

    NavyLCDR member

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    That's weird.... I always thought that what made a firearm semi-automatic was the fact that only one round was discharged for each pull of the trigger but that the firearm loaded another round ready to fire at the next pull of the trigger....
     
  5. mastiffhound

    mastiffhound Member

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    Nevermind
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2013
  6. SunnySlopes

    SunnySlopes Member

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    That's my guess. The weapon is marked "Browning Machine Gun." Gun dealers aren't always knowlegeable about all variations of all guns manufactured. That speciman would give me pause as well, just because of the sideplate marking. I've never seen one. Cool, though.
     
  7. MagnumDweeb

    MagnumDweeb Member

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    1919s are one of those guns that's actually a PITA to make semi-auto only. It's far easier to make one full-auto. With 1919s, the kits are still very popular, and have only gotten more expensive.

    This is also the ATF we are talking about and like any government employee they are probably playing CYA. God forbid you got the gun out of there with people thinking it was Semi-auto only, the next thing you know the same gun is used a few months later in a mass killing, with it being full-auto. I know its obscene and ridiculous but this is the way many government stooges think. Better to error on the side of paranoia and have nothing bad happen, then be reasonable and risk something horrible happening.

    Think about it, the ATF is currently run by the Dems and their mentality. Better to destroy your rights than....well take the chance the gun will be used in a crime.
     
  8. Sam1911

    Sam1911 Moderator

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    Geez...there's waaay too high a "signal-to-noise" ratio in this thread. I only count about 6 posts out of 30 (not even counting 6 I deleted last night as just vapid) that even speculate in a helpful way. And NONE of us actually know anything about what's happening yet.

    In truth, Onmilo may have been closest -- perhaps that manufacturer has been cutting a few corners or doing things he maybe shouldn't (it HAPPENS) and they're inspecting each of the guns he's made to be sure he's followed the law. Those two "ignorant" ladies MAY have just saved you from coming into possession of an illegal machine gun. We just don't know.

    Braxton, send me a Private Message when there's something else to report and I'll reopen the thread. Perhaps we can all learn something once there's something to learn.
     
  9. Sam1911

    Sam1911 Moderator

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    The OP has asked me to reopen this to share the following:

     
  10. michaelbsc

    michaelbsc Member

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    The fact that the tracked the two revolvers is a little disconcerting.

    Clearly they hang on to old records.
     
  11. braxton14

    braxton14 Member

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  12. animator

    animator Member

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    Had a friend get a visit from the local ATF office after having several handguns transferred at one time. He produced his 03, and all was well.


    But yes, it happens.
     
  13. braxton14

    braxton14 Member

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    03?

    Sent from my SGH-T989 using Tapatalk 2
     
  14. Aaron Baker

    Aaron Baker Member

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    I'm in no way paranoid about interactions with the ATF, but I have to say that when federal law enforcement agents want to start talking to me about more than the reason I was originally on their radar, I get cautious.

    If you bought two revolvers, they probably got the form referenced above that reported that. If you still own both of them, I suppose it couldn't hurt to simply be honest with them and tell them that, and possibly even show them the firearms. That would almost certainly satisfy their curiosity.

    However, you are under NO obligation to speak to them about those revolvers, PERIOD. Sure, they want to ask you questions. Cops want to ask people questions all the time. You are never required to answer those questions. You can absolutely get yourself into more trouble by doing so. Especially if you've innocently sold one of those revolvers in a face-to-face transaction. All sorts of legal, innocent things can look fishy to ATF agents who are on the hunt for problems.

    At the risk of sounding overly cautious, now might be the time that you want to speak to an attorney. You don't want the ATF to end up letting you talk yourself into some trouble.

    What should happen now is that they inspect this firearm, verify it isn't fully automatic, the transfer is completed and you're done. The fact that they are now wanting to question you about other guns you've legally purchased and own is not a good sign.

    Aaron

    P.S. As for the off-topic chuckling in this thread about the Tacoma seizure of airsoft rifles, it might be worth checking the facts before laughing at the ATF. The Taiwanese manufacturer was striving for such an accurate reproduction that he produced a metal lower receiver with three holes (easily seen in the video) in the receiver, including the one for the autosear, as well as working takedown pins and a functioning magwell. You'd have to swap on a real upper receiver, and remove the guts and add a lower parts kit with an autosear, but that's relatively easy work. If a "real" lower with the third hole drilled is an illegal machine gun, then an "accurate reproduction" of a lower, made from metal, with the third hole drilled... is just a toy? It might have broken after the first couple rounds were fired, and maybe no one was going to try to convert it, but that doesn't make it not an illegal machine gun. There are guys building Glocks using accurate airsoft reproduction frames. (Which is not illegal, since there's no machine gun issue.)
     
  15. kludge

    kludge Member

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    This is what I immediately thought when I read the OP.

    Nice.
     
  16. Deanimator

    Deanimator Member

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    Regarding the secondary matter of the revolvers, I would NEVER talk to them without a lawyer present. BATF(E) has a proven track record of mendacity, including under oath.

    Talk to them without legal counsel at your own risk.
     
  17. RetiredUSNChief

    RetiredUSNChief Member

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    Hmmm...

    It's interesting to note that it was the FFL who called in the BATF. Understandable, if he didn't realize what he was dealing with and didn't have the experience to understand and verify that something that was stamped "machine gun" was semi-auto only. Any legitimate FFL would not want to be caught up in illegal firearms transactions.

    Considering that I would have told the FFL what to expect in such a transaction, I would have expected him to voice any concerns with me personally, so that things could have been straightened out as part of a professional relationship with a customer. But not knowing me from Adam, this may be a stretch. Certainly he wouldn't want to get involved with a possible disagreement/altercation with a criminal.

    That said, once the BATF is done and they've cleared the 1919 as a legal, semi-auto only weapon, this should be the end of it.

    HOWEVER, I simply cannot believe that they will not provide you with documentation of their investigation. Most especially since they have questioned you about it. If they had done all this "in the background", with you having never known anything about it, then fine. This is because you have yet to take possession of the firearm...it's not yours yet. But they have questioned you about this and that brings you into the picture.

    I would talk to an attorney about this...and don't put it off. Some might say "this isn't an official investigation", but that's semantics. They ARE investigating. Even if everything is on the up-and-up, you likely have every right to have that documentation in writing. So get an attorney and pursue that.

    As for the questions about the pistols, as an unrelated subject with respect to their investigation...the BATF absolutely should know that all appropriate paperwork was filed. That's part of the documentation they most certainly would have reviewed. If so, then they had absolutely no business questioning an legitimate, legal transaction unless they were looking for something else.

    Now, some people like to use that line "if you have nothing to hide..."

    Rest assured, even if you don't have anything to hide you have every right, and a responsibility to yourself, to politely refuse to answer any such questions.

    Why?

    Because, contrary to popular belief, criminal investigators aren't looking to clear an individual of a crime. They're looking to find any evidence of a crime, period. If you say the wrong thing, even innocently, that remark will become part of an official record and will start a world of hurt for you.

    Because these BATF officials should have already KNOWN you had made a legal multiple handgun purchase through their access of the records documenting that fact, you should immediately contact an attorney.

    Now, because we all know that things like this are documented in official records somewhere, you need to do the smart thing yourself: document it in your own official records. Make it part of all the official paperwork you should be keeping anyway. Years down the road, if something should ever come up, you will have this. Another reason to have a copy of what the BATF is doing.

    I'm not saying you're in trouble. Very likely you are not based on what you've presented here. However, it would be somewhat less than smart for you NOT to contact an attorney and discuss this.

    If cost is a concern, then know that most attorneys offer a free one hour consultation in which they will hear your concerns and let you know what they can do to help and what it will cost. Most attorneys will work with you on payments, too. Since this doesn't actually involve any criminal charges or whatnot, then likely the expense will be fairly minimal...just payment for straight up legal advice and such.


    All this said, realize that I am NOT an attorney. However, I've had a wee bit of experience with the judicial system (civilian and military) because I had the rather unpleasant experience of having married a demon-spawn for a first wife. What I encountered because of that has been very revealing. As have the discussions I've had over the years with various attorneys and law enforcement people in conversations on a variety of other unrelated topics.

    If you are questioned by any criminal or law enforcement agency, you are part of an investigation. The purpose of said questioning is to find evidence of criminal activity, whether you are an official suspect or not.
     
  18. PBR Streetgang

    PBR Streetgang Member

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    First off let me preempt my post by saying that my post isn't meant to be derogatory.

    In my dealings with BATF ,the special agents and attorneys are not knowledgeable in firearms themselves but the Federal laws and rules pertaining to them. I have yet to meet a SA who was a gun guy (or girl)

    On the other hand, their civilian technical branch people are some of the most knowledgeable firearms I have ever dealt with.

    I presented a M203 HE (M406) round to a local BATF SA who explained to me it was just a big bullet. The color drained out of his face after he made a call to their tech division and they told him what he was holding.
     
  19. Bubbles

    Bubbles Member

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    I'm going to agree with this. Also, many dealers want nothing to do with Title II firearms, so they never bother to learn the technical differences between what a 1919 semi- vs full-auto will look like, because they never expect to have to deal with it.

    So, when that 1919 came in obviously the dealer assumed he had unpapered NFA on his hands and called the ATF.
     
  20. rdhood

    rdhood Member

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    This. If I walk into a store and see MY gun on the counter being ogled/handled by anyone, then that's the last time I do business with that FFL.

    Every gun I have ever transferred had to be retrieved from a safe room.



    I second the "do not talk without an attorney present" line of thought. If you say one thing that could be construed wrong, or construed as a lie or that you were being evasive, you could find yourself in a world of legal hurt. Don't do it.
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2013
  21. VA27

    VA27 Member

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    I'm kinda mixed on this. On the one hand, I'd be a little peeved with the dealer for dropping a dime on me. On the other hand, with all that's been in the news and the increased ATF inspections, I can kinda understand why he did. That doesn't make it right, but if he's so uninformed about firearms it makes sense.

    I have no problem with the gun being out for all to see. If I order something unusual I tell my dealer to leave it out to see if anyone else is interested and maybe generate another sale. I want my dealer to be sucessful and be in business for a long time.

    The OP appears to be a polite young man and I find no fault in the way he handled the situation.

    I am neither young nor polite, YMMV.
     
  22. ball3006

    ball3006 Member

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    I have fired both the semi auto and full auto 1919s. If I am correct, the full auto fires from an open bolt and the semi auto fires from a closed bolt. If this is correct, just pull the bolt back, to ensure the gun is not loaded, and pull the trigger. If the bolt slams shut, you may have a full auto on your hands. Or do the opposite, close the bolt, after checking to see the gun is not loaded, and pull the trigger. If it goes click, it probably is a semi auto. I will never be able to afford either gun but they are really cool....chris3
     
  23. psyopspec

    psyopspec Member

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    I'd never heard of a prohibition on recording federal agents in the public execution of their duties. However, I get not raising a stink about it. If you have anymore dealings with them, I would at least keep a notebook handy. Log dates/times/locations, what the nature of the discussion was. Open any encounter with a federal agent by asking to inspect their Bs and Cs (Badge and Credentials). Presenting Bs and Cs should be their introduction to you anyway. Record the name, agency, and badge number.

    The purpose of all this would be in case the mole hill becomes a mountain on you. If anything becomes a court case it can literally take years to navigate, and you may be asked to recall specific events which have long since passed. I'm not trying to be scary, just recommending a prudent measure given that any interaction with that agency could have extreme consequences in your life.
     
  24. SilentScream

    SilentScream Member

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    I would be leery of the ATF's tech lab, as they've been know to drastically modify weapons to get semi-auto firearms to fire in full auto, to get convictions in court.
     
  25. psyopspec

    psyopspec Member

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    Source?
     
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