The Beretta 92FS is the most common pistol in the world

[Correia]

As far as military use, I'm only aware of a handful of countries that issue the Beretta. US, France, Italy, and a handful of Asian countries. I believe that Japan uses their own version of the Beretta. I also believe that Taurus is very common in South America, and South Africa makes their own version as well.

The BHP, and the newer DA FNs are in use by Canada, England, Australia, Belgium, and have been used all over the world. Literally. It has got to be the most common.

The CZ 75 dominates in eastern Europe and parts of the world that had Russian influence, as well as a several places in Africa and South America. I know that the CZ is a pretty common side arm in South Africa.

Germany uses HKs. The Swiss army uses Sigs. The Austrians use Glocks. Most Euro cops use Sigs, HKs, Glocks, or Walthers.

Here is the kicker though. In the grand scheme of things the US public market is enormous compared to most of the world's armies. There are probably more Rugers sold in the US than there are Berettas issued to troops.

Heck there are something like a million cops in the US alone. Figure Glock owns about half that market.

So what is the answer?

Who knows.

 

[NevadaPistolero]

Funny thing is the troops are not saying the same things about the M9........of course its easier to kill the messanger......M9 info about half way thru the post.
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Special Report: War on Many Fronts
ARTICLE 03
SITREPS from Afghanistan


SITREP 1: Poor Small Arms Performance

Editor's Note: The following account of U.S. military small-arms performance written on March 26, 2002, was forwarded to Col. David Hackworth by a friend serving in Afghanistan.

The current-issue 5.56mm (.223 cal.) round, especially when fired from the short-barreled, M-4 carbine, is proving itself (once again) to be woefully inadequate as a man stopper.

Engagements at all ranges are requiring multiple, solid hits to permanently bring down enemy soldiers.

Penetration is also sadly deficient. Even light barriers are not perforated by this rifle/cartridge combination. Troopers all over are switching to the seventy-seven grain Sierra Matchking (loaded by Black Hills) whenever it can be found. Its performance on enemy soldiers is not much better, but it does penetrate barriers.
***********
We're fighting fanatics here, and they don't find wimpy ammunition particularly impressive! Adding to our challenges, our issue M9 pistol (Beretta M92F) is proving itself unreliable. They are constantly breaking. To make matters worse, the 9mm hardball round we use is a joke. It is categorically ineffective as a fight stopper, even at close range.

Some troopers, after numerous, desperate requests, are now being reissued [Colt .45 automatic] 1911s! However, the only ones available for issue are worn out. Magazines are hard to find, and 45ACP ammunition is scarce. We are frustrated here that none of the forgoing seems to be of the slightest concern to people in Washington. It is a damn good thing that we have air superiority and are not yet heavily engaged on the ground. Inferior weapons and ammunition are making us all nervous.
************
Lesson: Here we go again! We're going into war with small arms and ammunition we know to be impotent and (in the case of the M-9 pistol) lacking in durability. What makes the iniquity even worse is that these inadequacies have all been common knowledge since the Gulf War ten years ago. During WWI, American troopers were issued a French light, automatic rifle, as part of an economic sweetheart deal with the French.

The gun, called the CSRG (Chauchat), was notoriously unreliable, and that fact was well known by Americans and French alike. But, it was issued anyway and we will never know how many Americans were needlessly killed as a result. That this kind of casual nonchalance is apparently still standard procedure at the Pentagon, is disillusioning.

We really haven't come very far in eighty-five years. Our young men, in the minds of politicians and military brass alike, are still cannon fodder!.
*******
I beleive it was also proven that the aquisition of Beretta for our military was very flawed. Also it doesnt say anything about servicing at 5,000 rounds It says "SERVICE LIFE" which is not the same as servicing a pistol. The above article is from SFFT.org website. It was written by a guy in the field in Afghanistan and what he sees as a severe problem.
Also I never stated anything about head and heart shots. At least try and read the post before jumping in. Dont add something to my post I didnt say just to make yourself feel good.
Sometimes facts just get in the way of what you believe(theres plenty of police horror stories about the 9mm being inefectual). Thats your problem not mine. Now you can dislike Hackworth all you want...he didnt write the post above. Im not trying to pi** of Beretta owners...just stating facts. By all means buy and shoot the weapon you like the most. Personally I just dont like Beretta or the 9mm round (no matter what gun shoots it). Dont forget our GIs are not using high tech bullets...its ball ammo, big difference. If someone can show proof that the beretta is a superior military weapon please post it, Ive supplied links to back up what Im saying. Just because it is used doesnt mean its the best by any means. Sorry George I wasnt on planning to hijack your post but when Im attacked I fight back.

 

[coltjeeper]

Nevada,

No ones "jumping in" or "putting words in your mouth". Your the one posting your "links" and talking about 5000rd service lifes. Your last post didn't say anything about a 5000rd service life.

George asked for proof about your numbers. Its already been mentioned about Hackworth being a blowhard. If you don't like something, in your case the 9mm or the M9, your not likely to use it or care much about whats written about it. I on the other hand do. And being in the Army and issued an M9, none of my experiences or others, including numerous armorers, reflect what your saying. The M9 is doing just fine in our circles.

These are peoples opinions, being influenced by each sides views. Please don't take that as some sort of personal attack. It was never meant that way and I didn't want you thinking that.

 

[John G]

No, NevadaPistelero, You didn't say anything about head/heart shots. That was kind of my point.

Nine hits with a 9mm in the leg don't mean much. SHOT PLACEMENT is the key here. Your post about the Colorado policeman shooting a "BG" nine times with an ineffective 9mm is the same old argument. I suspect they were NOT head/heart shots, and if they were, the bad guy would have ceased being a threat.

There is no magic pistol round. If you can't hit your target, don't blame the bullet.

 

[bountyhunter]

" I was saying the expected service life of the US Military beretta is only 5,000 rounds. ....Well heres the proof. .... Also Ive read alot of articles about the Berettas in use in Afghanistan.....the troops are complaining all over the place. They stop working and take to many rounds to knock down the bad guy. It will be interesting to hear what comes out of Iraq about the Beretta. "

OK, I think you must be quoting the article by hackworth. It has been so thoroughly discredited I did not think anyone even listened to him anymore. He has an anti-Beretta vendetta going and is tring to make his name by constantly claiming the government is killing off our soldiers by giving them defective weapons. he claimed that the M-16 single handedly killed "thousands" of our soldiers when they jammed in firefights. He is a the biggest blowhard you will ever hear from. Here is the original well from which much BS has been flowing:

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=28212

 

[Serpico]

."..the Beretta M92 (was) built to U.S. Army specifications. One should understand that these specifications were:
Only the frame has a specified service life.
That service life is 5,000 rounds.
The slide is a disposable part.
99% of the military pistols will fire only 80 rounds per year. "


Iit says it was built to army specs..it doesn't mean it won't go further than 5,000...

 

[George Hill]

I passed on some of this information to this character. Here is what he wrote in reply:

Canada has a tiny, tiny Army. Australia uses the Glock 19. Belgium's army is even smaller than the Canadian Army (it's only a couple of brigades).
The UK's armed forces are smaller than the USMC. This is the point I was making. I think it is slightly possible the Hi-Power is more common than the Beretta, but I wouldn't be surprised if it wasn't.
It does not dominate in Eastern Europe, or anywhere that had Russian influence, it's not a Russian gun. It genuinely is not that common.
In Eastern Europe you'll see the Makarov or some weird adaptation of the Walther PP most often. Have a look at all the crap being seized in Afghanistan, mostly Tokarevs and a few Makarovs. No Army anywhere has adopted it as standard issue (except maybe some halfarse outfits in Africa) and only the Czech Police use it.
It was exported to Africa and South America, but in numbers that would even come close to the use of the Beretta in the US? No way. And in numbers that would rival the Beretta copies sold by Taurus, the local manufacturer?

As to South Africa, the standard issue pistol for the SADF is the Beretta 92F, called there the Vektor Z88, made under license. It is also the most commonly sold pistol on the civilian market. Definitely more common than the CZ-75, although a lot of CZ-75s have been sold there. In South Africa they levy huge import duties on firearms, so the local product wins out.

{About the guns used by Germany similar} Indeed, but not in numbers that would rival the numbers of Berettas in circulation, that was by point. All the P220 series guns added together is around a million. H&Ks are far less than that, and Walthers are less than that. Lot of Glocks about but not as many as there are Berettas. Eventually there might be more Glocks but not at the moment.
Japan uses a copy of the P220. The point you're forgetting here is that the US has more guns than almost everyone else put together!

France doesn't issue the Beretta, they use the old MAS 9mm, but the Gendarmerie and the Air Force use it. Spain uses a copy called the Llama M82. Mexico also uses it. Egypt officially uses it, but I'm not sure how widespread it is. So does Lebanon and a fair number of other small countries.

The point you have to remember here is that Brazil, South Africa and the US are the main markets for civilian guns, and in Brazil and South Africa the Beretta is the most popular gun on the market, and it's quite popular in the US also. When you add in US military stockpiles, it adds up.

The Beretta 92 is among the most popular pistols in the world, in terms of total numbers if you include the copies it's definitely in the top three, and it might be the most common of all.

Is this guy even close to being correct? Or is he on some other planet?

 

[John G]

Another planet. He likes the Beretta, and therefore it must be the most popular. I read somewhere a long time ago, that the GP-35, aka Browning Hi-Power, was issued to armies in over 90 countries. The Beretta is a good pistol, I like it a lot. But it is not the most popular on the globe.

(by the way, what's this "deactivated firearms" stuff? Do I understand correctly that this guy and his buddies collect guns that don't shoot?)

 

[Stevie-Ray]

I've always heard (since about 1985 or so) the same as some here, and that is the CZ-75. The BHP has been widely known to be the most prolific pistol in the world's forces, but the CZ was always the one that was going to unseat it, or in some reports, already had.

Don't know this to be true, and of course it's highly debated here. It's just what I've heard.

 

[vanfunk]

I may have been mislead on this point, but I believe that even the vaunted 1911 (of which I am a fan, but hardly a fanatic) had an expected service life of 6000 rounds. It must be known that these "service life" numbers are hardly roadsigns to self destruction, after which the firearms in question will simply fly to bits.

People have told me that the rifling on my .300 Weatherby is only good for 1000 rounds before the accuracy goes out the window. I suppose it should baffle me then that my .300 WM still shoots 1" groups, despite having sent more than a 1000 rounds downrange before the summer of '63.

Is a Beretta toast at 5000 rounds? Not if it feeds, fires, ejects and puts bullets in a circle at any reasonable defensive range. Is the jig up at 10000 rounds then, or 20000, or 30000? Not if it works! If it breaks, fix it. If it doesn't, shoot it!
vanfunk

 

[George Hill]

Guys, what does service life have to do with the question?

So, the "Most Popular" or most common pistols around are the 1911, the Hi Power, the CZ-75... Just like I said.

This guy's crack smoking had me dizzy.

 

[Island Beretta]

I think you all are being unfair to this 'deactivated' guy. He did allude to the BHP being number 1 and did use the word 'possibly'.

I also made a post in which I pointed out some issues related to the Beretta. Here again I said the BHP and its variants were number 1 and pointed out that the CZ75B and variants might very well be the biggest threat to the 92fs and variants in terms of popularity worldwide. Did any of you read it???????

If any of you are looking for numbers that may be a bit hard to come by, so we go with what we observe..if that is not satisfactory then undertake some thesis, you may even do a dissertation on it..that could make good reading.....

It is also very interesting to see how the 1911 suddenly became the perfect weapon after the Beretta was adopted by the USA!! For those who do not know what I am talking about do some research yourself.

This 5000 round thing is a Army spec and was req'd of the Beretta.. Berettas have demonstrated longer lifes than that.

To the poster who said the French do not use the Beretta, check that again, they make Berettas under license designated the 92G (decocker only)

 

[George Hill]

No, the 1911 didn't become the Perfect Weapon until after "High Capacity" automatics were banned. With the limit being 10 rounds, the theory is that if your going to only have 10 rounds, then it's best to make them Big rounds. Another reason (among several) for the soaring popularity of the .40.
The AWB, changed a lot. All the sudden we had 1911's back in vogue, the had 10 round mags pop up all over the place for them. "Pocket Rockets" became popular. And Six-Shooters all the sudden sprouted extra chambers... 7 or 8 shot revolvers are no longer rare.

I'm not trying to be hard on anyone... I was just seeking clarification. I doubted something that I thought I knew and could find no reliable source of information... so I asked the Council here.

I wanted to verify who was smoking the crack...

 

[Island Beretta]

George at the end of the day the outcome is what is important.. (cutting through the fog now) therefore what do you now think about the statement this guy made, do you agree that it is possible??

Also, not going off topic here, but remind me- Didn't the high capacity ban affect only weapons made after 1994. IOW, I could carry a 92fs with a 15 round mag today?

 

[Shake]

NevadaPistolero,

I have read numerous documents on the web related to military arms and all of them speak of "service life" as the amount of time between routine maintenance (not just related to the M9, but other weapons including the 1911). If you want your "service life" to be different with the military's, that's fine and dandy by me.

As far as all the "reports from the field" you seem to be hearing/reading. Aside from the one article by Hackworth (who has been labeled as a hack by many NOT on this board-believe him if you want) do you have any other documentation that our soldiers think they are crap?

I have numerous pictures of our soldiers in Iraq using the M9 in various situations (everal with an M16 strapped to their back). Think about it for a second. . . if you were them, would you risk your life by using the unreliable M9 instead of your rifle, regardless of the situation? Believe me, most of them want to come home in one piece as much as you would in their situation. If they had no confidence in the M9, they wouldn't be using it.

IMHO and all that. . .

Shake

Note: I'm not a huge fan of Berettas, I own a Beretta Elite II that I think is a great pistol, but they are not my favorite.

 

[Handy]

I think the Beretta might well be one of the most common service pistols. Aside from the militarys mentioned above, they are extremely common police pistols in Europe. I saw them in police use in France and Italy.

The older Beretta 951 is also a VERY common military weapon in the middle east. It's basic design is very similar.

1911s are used almost nowhere. I don't know where that came from.


Basically, most countries tend to favor indeginous designs. HK and Walther for the Germans. Llama and Stars in Spain. Sig in Switzerland. But when the country uses something not home-brewed, it seems likely to be a 92 variant (if it's not a BHP).

While the CZ or other designs may be gaining ground, keep in mind that the CZ wasn't available in the west before the late '80s. But the 92 has been around since the early 70's. That makes it one of the oldest common wondernines. Being established is great for business.

Aside from Beretta, there are old SA designs that most organizations are getting away from, and a handful of other European products that are usually more expensive than the 92. US designs have made virtually no inroads in foreign sales. It's a really reliable, safe and cheap service pistol that has been in common usage for 30 years. Why wouldn't it be common?


As for the 5,000 round thing, the military inspects its M9s every 5,000 rounds. I believe they inspected the old 1911s every 7,000.

 

[TheMariner]

As far as the 92 is concerned.... whatever.... doubt it, but whatever.... The most popular caliber is either the 9mm or the .38 Take your pick...
Close follow up? .45 or the .40 would be my guess...

As for teh M-16/M-4, I think the bullet is too small, but I don't make the decisions now do I? My preference would be teh 30-06 or the .308 if you really wanted range... if not, a modified .40 cartridge would be nice... you know, something in between a pistol and rifle round... more appropriate for intermediate ranges of urban settings.

 

[MJRW]

Island Beretta,

You are correct. As long as the magazine was manufactured or imported prior to 94, its perfectly legal in its pre-ban configuration. I believe some states have clauses about not using pre-ban magazines in firearms made or imported after the ban. But the reason the ban affected popularity was simple availability. More shooters pop up each year and old shooters still buy. So demand is constantly increasing while the supply remains the exact same. You could no longer go to the store and get a Beretta and that 15 round magazine. You had to look around for that fifteen rounder and pay much more for it. You could only readily obtain 10 rounders for it. Now, I'm not saying full capacity are not available, but they are not as readily available or guaranteed availability.

 

[George Hill]

George at the end of the day the outcome is what is important.. (cutting through the fog now) therefore what do you now think about the statement this guy made, do you agree that it is possible??

Yeah, it's possible. The question is if it's TRUE. THAT is what I want to know.

 

[Handy]

George,

Why do you claim the 1911 is so widespread worldwide? I can't think of more than a slim handful of users, aside from civie shooters.

 

[George Hill]

The 1911 is approaching 100 years old. It has been in constant production with only small alterations here and there. Count in all the clones and variants... I think it is one of the most common handguns on the planet by weight of numbers. They might not be Issued. But they are still out there serving their owners well.
Beretta 92 has only been out 20 years. Yet its possible that it is now currently today the most "Issued" pistol... but the question is if it is the most "Common".
Then there are all the other ones... Hi Powers, Maks, CZ-75s and what not that have also been around for much longer than the 92 and follow on variants.

Anyways, the question is one that has proven to be a hard one to pin down. There is no solid source of reliable information and just a lot of claims. This is just a question that is bugging me. Today I am going to go the library and do some research. Online searches turn up way too many softair hits and not enought actual data.

 

[mephisto]

How bout a cz-97? Big. 45. and very nice. George how is dinosaur land?


mephisto

 

[Erik]

P-35s takes top billing. Then arguablely 1911s and a revolver or two. I'd be surprized if the Beretta comes close.

 

[Handy]

I'll ask again:

How the hell is the mostly US issued 1911 going to be one of the worlds most common pistols? Where is this coming from? Hardly anyone even makes ammo for it.

Whatever the most common gun is, it's going to be 9mm Luger if it isn't something like .32. Of 9mms, there are only so many that have been widely issued, and the Beretta is one of the oldest that is still being issued.

 

[bountyhunter]

I wonder if there is an underlying difference in the definition of "most common". If it means, total number in service at this time, I might believe the 92FS could be it. If it means, most guns ever built or used in service, the HP or .38 six shooter would be more likely.