The biggest joke in the Firearms industry...

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This will be mostly rant, the question is at the bottom.






Saw this today on a certain website:

keltecweapons.com/about said:
Kel-Tec continues to grow and expand at our Cocoa facility... to keep up with demand.

A search on gunbroker shows that the KSG is selling (with actual bids) for almost double MSRP. If you can find one you can literally double your money in a week. Same is true for the PMR-30, and I'd suspect other guns. The only KelTec firearms that I ever see available are their .380, .38, and 9mm handguns.

I want a KSG, I want a RFB, I want a PMR-30, but there is no way I can afford to pay 2x retail for them, and even if I could, I can't find one locally anywhere.

I really don't understand this. I have run a company before and if I could not meet demand I expanded until I could. Responsible businesses don't just leave customers wanting their product indefinitely, they know that their customers will find a competitor that can supply them, at this point I am hoping that Beretta or Mossberg or Benelli or someone else starts making a bullpup shotgun to compete with KelTec so that I can actually get my hands on one.

The question is this: Why? Does anyone know the real reason that they haven't expanded their manufacturing capabilities? It can't be for lack of demand or profitability, the equipment would pay for itself in a couple of product runs. KelTec has the potential to be one of the most successful firearm businesses around, so why don't they?
 
I don't have the answer, but it seems like they have some of the most innovative designs on the market, and no way or for some unknown reason desire to reliably mass produce them.

Noting their location, I am assuming they started off doing space program work and branched into firearms?

Just my .02,
LeonCarr
 
I have no idea. I can speculate that there's a lot of companies that aren't expanding and hiring and spending because of uncertain economic times, an inconsistent and uncertain tax policy, and anticipated costs from certain legislation & regulation.
 
Ever heard of Harley Davidson?
Yea... I can go down to the Harley Davidson store and take my pick from a hundred different bikes today if I wanted to. I can drive for 200 miles in any direction and I would bet that I couldn't find one of the three guns I mentioned.
 
Were you around in the early 90's? You had to order a Harley, and wait months for your new bike, then pay 50% over list.
 
Ever hear of a "bubble"? Bubbles burst eventually, and this one will, too. It happened with Harley, the Mazda Miata, the Volkswagon "New Beetle", Cabbage Patch Kids, and countless other products. Kel-Tec knows this. I'm sure the company does not want to pour huge amounts of money into expansion of a product line, and then be saddled with all that "extra" when their own bubble bursts.
Remember, for a while there, it was hard to find many of their pistols, too, without paying a substantial markup. In 2008 and early 2009, the PF-9 was hard to come by for many people.
I think your thread title might contain a little exaggeration..
 
KelTec already has a somewhat mixed reputation. Both very innovative on the one hand, and inexpensive, plastic, and "cheap" on the other. I'm sure they are being VERY careful to get as many bugs worked out of these guns as they possibly can, and make sure that their process can keep up (and improve!) quality at accelerated rates of production. They can't afford to push their market position any further toward the "cheap junk" end of the spectrum.

Further, with any new product there's a painful period of working out the bugs through field-testing. The general idea is to let the "early adopters" run your products into the ground and show you where the deficiencies are. Then you've only got a few thousand guns out there you're responsible for upgrading or replacing when the common defects are figured out. Dumping 100,000 new KSGs onto the market, only to find out that the trigger breaks off at 1,000 rds or whatever, just hurts them. I'm sure KelTec has the patience to let the early adopters do their work, figure out the good and the bad and what needs to be upgraded on the KSG.v2. The rarity and cachet of these seldom-seen guns can only drive the demand crazy, and when they're ready with a fully complete product, they'll rake in the money with the hurdles of beta testing behind them.
 
I have heard from multiple gun shops that Kel-Tec is not only a gun manufacturer. I wanted a SUB 2000 and it was almost impossible to find one. I was told they do runs of models and then move onto the next. So if it is a popular model it may run out fast and there are no more until they do a run again. I also heard that manufacture other things, I think stuff for aircraft, and so while that is happening they are not manufacturing any guns.

This is what I was told why it is hard to find some Kel-Tec models. Is this just gun shop drivel? I have no idea.

Shawn
 
I have heard from multiple gun shops that Kel-Tec is not only a gun manufacturer.

My LGS owner told me their "bread 'n butter" is in the aerospace business. I don't know if there is 1 oz of truth to this, but it could explain why some of their firearms are hard to find.

Their RFB has been out close to 5 years.....still hard to find. How long should it take a guy like George Kellgren, who has made firearms for over 30 years, to work-out the "bugs" on a new gun?
 
How long should it take a guy like George Kellgren, who has made firearms for over 30 years, to work-out the "bugs" on a new gun?

Apparantly quite a while. And it could simply be that the company is not happy enough with the final product (so far) to want to ramp up and make a million of them. From the reports of various users who have managed to shoot one, the gun is perhaps not quite ready for prime time.
 
A good business model does not expand too rapidly. Bubbles to burst.

However, I agree that there is a completely UNMET demand for these Keltec guns. When a gun has been on the market for a year, 2 years, even 6 months and it's still 'vaporware' that is a problem.

I've been to plenty of gun shops and gun shows. I've never seen in person the RFB or the KSG. If I thought they were quality, I'd pay a competetive price for them. But having never seen them and with their prices much higher than other guns, no thanks
 
I suspect they are doing what is most profitable for them. The market the KSG, PMR 30, RFB is nowhere near the market for the P3AT, P11, PF9.

These guns you are looking for are more of a niche market. You want one, and they are hard to find, but the masses are not demanding the guns. The people that really want them are much smaller in numbers than the 380 & 9mm crowd.

They are putting their resources into what is selling in large numbers

Oh and I would not call Kel Tec the biggest joke in firearms. If I am not mistaken they are #3 in the US in production of handguns. They are doing a lot of things right
 
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Responsible businesses don't just leave customers wanting their product indefinitely, they know that their customers will find a competitor that can supply them, at this point I am hoping that Beretta or Mossberg or Benelli or someone else starts making a bullpup shotgun to compete with KelTec so that I can actually get my hands on one.

Responsible businesses use very cautious and well thought out planning to allocate their resources toward maximizing their profits. Honestly, if they can make 9mm and .380 pistols at a better expected return than their speculation about a bullpup shotgun or (yet another) .308 semi-auto rifle, the responsible thing to do is concentrate on the pistols and abandon the other idea.

R&D and bringing out new platforms is a bonus, something a successful company might do with a bit of excess cash. It is what you do if your company NEEDS a boost and you're looking to increase your market. If you're already doing great and can't get the already mature product lines out fast enough to meet demand, devoting time and cash to new models is foolish.

Dumping a somewhat ragged and unpolished new product onto the market in large numbers just increases their chances of having to pay for a recall of many units to fix defects, or harming their brand image if the new product is perceived as down market, cheap, and/or gimmicky. That would be irresponsible.
 
I give Kel-Tec credit for not only providing inexpensive carry weapons, but also pushing the envelope of small arms design and innovation. It would be nice if they would ramp up production of the RFB, PMR-30, and KSG, but as was pointed out by Sam1911, they're probably ironing out final production version bugs to ensure that when they do finally ramp up production, all of them will be accurate, reliable and durable without having to send them back.

Goes with the territory of building gun designs that are completely new and untested. :)
 
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I agree Sam, they should either xxxx or grt off the pot. This show and tell hide and seek mentality, only show me that they are not a company that I want to have anything to do with. I believe their culture is flawed, their weapons hit and miss, and their ability to fulfill expectations severlly damaged.
I would never buy a Keltec product again. When someone comes out with a gun, and expects the public to "fix it" for them it's just irresponsible. Their Ktog forums are just full of fixes and reccomandations for using different ammo because they made a part too small or too big. Such as the PF9, they say right up front that some will shoot 147 grain remmington FMJ's and some won't, if yours dosen't, you should try different ammo. That's a lot of crap. And it's true, i had one and it fired 115 grain HP's perfectlly fine, but I stuck in a mag full of 147 grain one day, and bingo every other shot was a FTF, FTE. Put back the 115's and it was fine. That is unacceptable when you give folks a HD gun.
Make the gun work before you release it, not after people find out that it doesn't work part of the time. I hope that someone comes out and rips off their design, and makes a finished product with this shotgun, just to teach them a lesson. The same with the PMR, they ripped off Grendel so wh are they kidding. Do you R&D before you release your product.
 
This show and tell hide and seek mentality, only show me that they are not a company that I want to have anything to do with.

:) So, get it to us NOW, but get your R&D done FIRST, but don't slow down making the pistols people actually are buying as fast as they hit the shelves, and don't tease me about a gun I might like!

No problem! ;)
 
So far as we know KelTec is not a government run operation.

They need to think long term, manage responsibly and show profitability.

But hey, maybe get a few stimulus bucks and there could be a RFB, PMR-30, and KSG on every table at your next local gun show!
 
I really don't understand this. I have run a company before and if I could not meet demand I expanded until I could. Responsible businesses don't just leave customers wanting their product indefinitely...

This is often true of companies that mass produce and many see a significant drop in quality. I've waited for as long as nine months to get what I wanted.

Order a Randall Knife and let us know the wait.

You had to order a Harley, and wait months for your new bike, then pay 50% over list.

And some dealers wouldn't sell to you unless you already owned one.
 
I agree Sam, they should either xxxx or grt off the pot. This show and tell hide and seek mentality, only show me that they are not a company that I want to have anything to do with. I believe their culture is flawed, their weapons hit and miss, and their ability to fulfill expectations severlly damaged.
I would never buy a Keltec product again. When someone comes out with a gun, and expects the public to "fix it" for them it's just irresponsible. Their Ktog forums are just full of fixes and reccomandations for using different ammo because they made a part too small or too big. Such as the PF9, they say right up front that some will shoot 147 grain remmington FMJ's and some won't, if yours dosen't, you should try different ammo. That's a lot of crap. And it's true, i had one and it fired 115 grain HP's perfectlly fine, but I stuck in a mag full of 147 grain one day, and bingo every other shot was a FTF, FTE. Put back the 115's and it was fine. That is unacceptable when you give folks a HD gun.
Make the gun work before you release it, not after people find out that it doesn't work part of the time. I hope that someone comes out and rips off their design, and makes a finished product with this shotgun, just to teach them a lesson. The same with the PMR, they ripped off Grendel so wh are they kidding. Do you R&D before you release your product.
Gym,
George Kellgren designed BOTH the PMR and the Grendel. He didn't rip off anyone,as that pistol was his own design 20 or 30 years ago.
 
Wasn't the Nintendo Wii the same way when it came out? The XBox and PS3 were going for $600+ in stores and the Wii was listed at $200. Suffice it to say, no one could keep it in stock and it was selling for WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAy above that price online. Marketing tactic?
 
I wouldn't pay retail for any kel tec product. In fact, after my experience with kel tec you can't give me one.
 
Also the carbine Grendel as well...RMR is the update of that design.

Some cool designs for sure, but it's not like any of their guns would sell in great volumes like Smith, Glock, Springfield, Colt,Ruger etc guns.

They have a niche, you don't go mass production on a product like that.

But I agree they could add a few more machines and smiths to the crew.
 
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