The Caliber Wars! Myths Vs. Reality.

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While caliber does make a difference, I am a firm belever in multiple shots with handguns, I like high capasity mags, and shooting untill they go limp. While I perfer the 40 and 45 myself I would not hesetate for a second to carry a 9mm with 17 or 19rd mags. Turns bad guy into hamburger before he hits the ground. The point I was trying to make about energy earlier, in every single case I can find, when comparing different calibers with near identical energy the one that uses the heavier projectile is always more deadly with properly tuned bullet construction for both. Momentum is an important secondary energy that many people do not take into account. The 9mm can match the energy of the 45 ACP but even the most hardcore 9mm fan won't say that it is more effective then the big bore.
 
If you are going to compare the 5.7x28mm to the .45, then use the round that Brassfetcher said is more effective as a defensive choice than the 230 grain Hydra-Shok round.. the S4M. The round you used in your model is the weakest round available to the public for the Five-seveN...

.45 230gr Hydra-Shok ... i1l4pe.gif

.224 50gr ProtecTOR II . dhfms1.gif

.224 28gr S4M ............ 5da0w0.jpg
 
Jath,

Great job at stimulating conversation!! There are two distinct camps and both raise good and valid points. Scientific theory versus real world experience, never the twain shall meet!
 
G|0cKbYtE if you and all the other 5.7 guys think that TWC is the true mesure of terminal performance you have alot to learn. There simply is no substatute for a substantial wound tract a second after the bullet has exited. Even if you beleve in TWC over all the 5.7 will let you down again. Just because the 5.7 can almost match the 28.4 cu inch of a slow mo 230gr 45 ACP does not make it a top contender, a high performance 40 S&Ws can over double that volume (69.1 cu inch), and the 357 mag has been mesured as high as 79.8 cu inches with hangun length barrels. Not knocking the 5.7 it is still powerful enough to make a suitable SD handgun, but to imply that it is more effective then a high performance 9mm or .40 S&W is just plain silly. The math says it all. Higher energy, more mass, more momentum, and larger caliber.
 
I think you're the one ignoring the math my friend. Energy = 1/2 Mass* VELOCITY Squared. That means Velocity has more effect on energy than mass does.

Temporary wound cavity is an effective measure of stopping power. The guy shot it going to FEEL it more. Plus it has more immediate effects on the target.

In general ( I said in general, not always) size of TWC cavities are directly proportional to PWCs. If you look at the videos of these TWCs and the end of the videos, you'll see that I'm mostly correct here. Those 5.7 wound tracks don't shrink back down to nothing, they stay substantially big.

As for a 9mm being more effective than the 5.7s, we've proven over and over again using scaled pictures that your wrong. You keep SAYING that 9mm is better than 5.7, but you haven't produced any PROOF. so keep saying that and we'll keep proving you wrong. Give us some data... some proof, and I don't mean a news article from Fort Hood, and a claim that 14 deaths of 30 shot is a low kill rate.
 
I know the math, much better then you think. TWC is NOT the primary factor in stopping power. No TWC is not an indicator of PWC, if you read my previous posts you know that the 9mm makes a larger TWC and smaller PWC then the 45 ACP. You really need to read what has been posted before dragging up the same old same old. That has been tested and proven more times then you ever care to read. You really need to read the FBI handgun wounding and effects book, the conclusions they came to were that TWC and fragmantation were minor secondary effects and PWC is the first and formost effect that we should be looking for. If you want to argue their findings with them go right ahead, but I take it that the FBI knows a thing or two about gunshot wounds, and stopping angry bad guys......more then me and more then you that is for sure. Like I said before compare the ballistics and then applications for the 5.56x45 vs the 454 Casull there is simply no comparison and I would dare anyone to challage the conclusion that the 454 is proven vastly more effective on large and dangerous charging anamals, the 5.56 is not even remotly up to the task dispite it's higher energy. Now explain that to me.
If you want to be the first to try your AR to stop 1,200lbs of charging teeth and claws I won't go with you but I might send flowers to your funeral. Be sure to tell him about the size of your TWC as he is ripping your leg off. Get real dude. Dangerous game hunters have used large caliber rifles and handguns for a very good reason, they work where smaller calibers fail, that is all there is to it. The larger PWC makes all the difference.
 
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PWC at handgun speeds is more a result of crushed tissue rather then ther stretching of tissue. Yet again this is a well established fact not some crazy theory impossable to prove. Hence a larger caliber projectile, especaly one that expands will crush much more tissue then a smaller one, while soft tissue can be stretched beyond it's elastic limits and tear, that effect simply does not happen in any usable quantity at standard handgun speeds, or five and seven speeds for that matter.
You can spout all the stories about the 5.7 you want to, the fact reamins that in terminal performance it has NOTHING on a modern high performance 9mm or .40 cal, no mesure that we know of gives the 5.7 an edge, so please explain this mystery energy to me.
 
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I think you're the one ignoring the math my friend. Energy = 1/2 Mass* VELOCITY Squared. That means Velocity has more effect on energy than mass does.
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Not the simple. Kinetic energy is transformed into TWC, sound, heat, and deformation of the bullet, itself, on impact. It's mathematically possible for a bigger bullet to do more actual damage with less energy.

Now, when you consider two projectiles that will produce identical permanent wound cavities, but one has a larger TWC, then I agree. It is probably better in some situations. Although it might actually be worse for some weird hit on bone, or whatnot.
 
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Kachok, I read your previous posts, and I'm not ignoring them, it's just that you're wrong. 9mm does not make a bigger TWC than .45. That's a fabrication.

As for FBI testing, you can't pick and choose which pieces of data to pay any attention to, you have to look at them all. While the FBI has some good tests for many different calibers and bullets, they don't have tests for them all. They tested one or two types of 5.7 round a while back, and chose not to use it. The FBI isn't the end all authority for whats effective anyway. I would trust the secret service, and the CIA just as easily, and they don't always agree with the FBI standards.

I'm not claiming that TWC is the only, or the most important factor to the effectiveness of a round. What I am suggesting is that it is a big factor to the IMMEDIATE effect the round has on a target. PWC is clearly also an important factor. But in almost all of the data I have looked at, and I can't say this enough times, the TWC and PWC are USUALLY directly proportional. There are a few exceptions, but when you stretch tissue enough beyond its limits, it starts to tear. This tearing may not be part of the PWC, but it still bleeds, and still causes nervous interruption. and the PWC serves as a channel for the TWC's tributaries in the river of blood.

Now you can choose to carry whatever you want. 9mm, .45, freakin' .22LR for all I care, so long as your proficient with it. I want you carry a gun because you're doing it legally, and you might be the dude who stops a crazed gunman from shooting my wife or daughter in the back of some grocery store some day. I just want everyone to really know what their rounds are capable of so they can have some level of confidence with their weapon. I'm tired of lies being told about this round or that. Just use raw data, and come to a scientific conclusion, and move on.

Anyway, I appreciate your and everyone else's interest in this thread. I have really enjoyed the discussions. I hope to do some of my own ballistic testing in the near future. Thanks again to everyone participating.
 
GLOOB said:
Not the simple. Kinetic energy is transformed into TWC, sound, heat, and deformation of the bullet, itself, on impact. It's mathematically possible for a bigger bullet to do more actual damage with less energy.

Now, when you consider two projectiles that will produce identical permanent wound cavities, but one has a larger TWC, then I agree. It is probably better in some situations. Although it might actually be worse for some weird hit on bone, or whatnot.
Click to expand...
When someone measures the energy of a round, they don't weigh the powder. That explosive energy is what is lost in heat, noise, etc. etc. They measure the velocity of the round, and calculate that with its known mass. That is how much energy the round has. As for deformation of the bullet, there is no energy lost there. a little law called conservation of energy ensures that. Yes, there is a MINOR amount of energy turned into heat and sound at the target, but that is nominal in a soft target, and In fact, sound waves can cause tissue damage as well.

You stated that large slow rounds can cause more damage then higher energy fast rounds. This is true. It depends on how well the energy was transferred into the target, and how the damage was mechanically done on both sides though. if you have a round that is 500 foot pounds for example, and only 50% of that energy is used on target, a 350 foot pound bullet depositing 100% of its energy into the target is going to likely be more effective.

That is where bullet design comes in.
 
If you choose to ignore messured documented facts then there is nothing else I can do to help you. If you ever happen to get your hands on some high speed video equipment test for yourself, 115gr Carbon +P loads make a good bit more TWC then even the 230gr 45 hydroshocks due to the much higher speed, but don't take my word for it.
For the sake of everyone elses information there is no coralation of TWC and PWC at handgun speeds, the 357 magnum can genarate a huge TWC, but the PWC will almost always be smaller then the .45 ACP with HPs. TWC is a result of high speeds and expansion, PWC is the result of crushed tissue at handgun speeds. This is well established fact and not even in debate among ballistics experts.
No doubt there is some truth to TWC creating a secondary wounding effect, I would never argue that point, but TWC is breif damage and almost all organs bounce back from the stretching (except the liver) I personlay think this effect is much more painfull then just having a slow bullet plow through you. Mind you I have never been shot but I am judging that off of what I have seen from gunshot game anamals. Just my .02
 
Here's some more raw data for you. Read the conclusion at the end. This is by guys who directly test this stuff. It's not some BS propaganda. 5.7 is effective. period.
 
Energy dump theory is bogus. Want proof of that ask anyone that used the lightweight bullets in their 243s and 6mm rems when they first came out. They had a reputation for blowing up in the shoulder without doing substantal damage to the vitals. The 243 is still trying to get past the bad rep it got back then. Consistant wound tracts though the vital organs with adaquate penatration are vastly superior to a bullet that blows up at one narrow point even if the consistant bullet expends some of it's energy on the far side of the target.. Don't be fooled by advertisments telling you otherwise. I never load deer hunting bullets that don't have a reputation for through and through performance, and my recovery record is as good as it gets.
"5.7 is effective. period." never said it was not, just not superior to other proven rounds. I am still waiting for an anwser to the magic energy that we cannot messure.
Edit. Here is what I am talking about with energy dump. Let's compare the performance of a bonded bullet out of a 44 mag vs a more powerful 500 S&W with a bullet that comes apart and "dumps" into the first few inches.
500 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ZCqQWJhjtY&feature=related
44 mag http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VXhCHhFFIFc&feature=related
The less powerful 44 is clearly the more effective round in this case, had the 500 been loaded with a properly designed bullet it would have blown it away no doubt about it. That is about as clear as a comparison can be, anyone care to debate my conclusion?
 
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Summary: according to many, energy dump, hydrostatic shock, ballistic pressure wave (anyone mentioned that yet?), etc. either don't exist (are a myth, are bogus, etc.) or don't matter. Permanent wound channel is everything.

Yet some light, fast pistol rounds (9mm+P+ 115gr JHP, 5.7 S4M, etc) are proven stoppers.

I guess there's no explanation for them. Move along now: nothing to see here.

Oh, about knock-down power...:D
The less powerful 44 is clearly the more effective round in this case
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More effective for what?
 
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It looks like this conclusive test has proven what I already knew. The .357 Magnum is the best handgun round ever created!
 
I don't think anyone here is ignoring TWC or BPW or whatever else people like to call hydrostatic shock. They all boil down to the same thing, though BPW and TWC are the two we can messure, and they are joined at the hip for sure. Where you find one you find the other. I agree that small caliber high speed rounds can be effective even if their PWC is smaller then the 45s, not saying more effective but effective enough for handgun use.
Edit. I was making refrence to the 44 mag vs 500 aginst a human or deer sized target, the failure of the bullet dramaticly reduced the results of the 500 no doubt about it.
 
Ummm... you're wrong again Kachok. The .500 was more effective. You clearly forgot to note scale.

321622_2003608617782_1470617107_31657716_1280201236_n.jpg


Man, no wonder you're making all these crazy claims, you don't know how to adjust for scale.

I think you just lost all credibility man. sorry
 
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500 aginst a human or deer sized target, the failure of the bullet dramaticly reduced the results of the 500 no doubt about it.
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I think Jath is right about scale. From a "common sense" point of view, folks who have fired both the .500 275 gr and .44 240 would have trouble believing the .500 is less effective on deer-size animals.
 
Everything I've seen lines up with what a previous poster wrote - unless the bullet is moving at 2000+ FPS when it hits the target, the TWC is not going to cause any permanent damage enough to cause an involuntary stop. Think about it - a heavier, slower moving object with the same energy is going to push more and slap less (hence why recoil from a 7 pound gun doesn't put a hole in your shoulder).

Therefore, in a handgun or shotgun, it's all about PWC. So instead of making charts on the TWC, I'd like to see charts on PWC with different rounds. That is what would really make a difference in the caliber war. Yes, the faster bullets may cause more pain, but unless they are moving fast enough, the "hurt" will not cause CNS damage or loss of blood pressure.

Rifles are different, because the shockwaves produced by a rifle actually cause the tissue to stretch far and fast enough to cause permanent damage, AKA "bloodshot."

For me, since most handguns will have "enough" capacity regardless of caliber (if you shoot 3-5 shots, it doesn't matter if you have 13 .45s or 19 9mms), it comes down to whether you can accurately shoot the caliber, and speed vs. caliber. Do you want each shot to be more powerful or do you want faster follow-up shots?

I do like what another poster said - priority is shot placement > depth > diameter. This is why lighter bullets, with their faster velocities, aren't as good against targets like bears with thick hides and skulls.
 
Jath also probably isn't factoring in how much "hurt" affects someone who's under the influence of drugs.

OP: There are 2 types of stops, psychological and physiological. Psychological stops can be "Oh, he has a gun, I'll run away," or "I just got shot, you're supposed to collapse when you get shot" (a subconscious response, but relies on the individual's mental state), or "These gunshots really hurt, I'll stop and do what the shooter says before he shoots me again." The first two are caliber independent and can be done with a .22. The third is dependent on caliber, placement, and the target's state of mind, and cannot be relied upon.

Physiological stops are when the attacker is physically unable to do anything, either because of damage to the CNS (caliber virtually irrelevenat, placement and enough penetration are all that matter), or a severe loss of blood pressure (caused by the permanent wounds), which a bigger caliber will likely decrease the time it takes for the target to lose enough blood to be physiologically stopped.

That is why people say the TWC doesn't really matter. It *might* have a psychological effect, which the individual can just grit his teeth and keep fighting. PWC *will* have a physiological effect, and there placement > penetration > caliber.
 
Skribs, you make an excellent point. a TWC that only increases pain won't mean jack crap if the guy is drugged up.

My point on this whole debate isn't that a lighter faster round is always going to do more damage than a heavier slower round of the same energy. The point I'm arguing is against those who claim that a 9mm is as effective as a .45, and that a 5.7 is no more effective than a .22 LR, or magnum. I'm trying to put the calibers into perspective in people's minds. I'm not saying 5.7 is the best, and I'm not saying 9mm sucks. There are advantages and disadvantages to all of them. (I will however shamelessly say that .357 is better than the other 3 calibers) .

One thing you have to realize about the TWC is that even though it might not increase the PWC necessarily, it does have effects beyond the boundaries of the TWC itself. All of the organs just outside the TWC will be compressed as well. It's like anything that is near, but not inside the radius of the TWC is punched. if you punch someone in the spleen or kidney, they are gona feel it. If you punch them simultaneously in the liver, lungs, and stomach... well, ouch.
 
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