The Caliber Wars! Myths Vs. Reality.

[Kachok]

G|0cKbYtE what exactly do all those incidents prove? That a 5.7x28 can kill soneone? No kidding I have said as much at leased a dozen times now. Does that prove anything at all in the context of the issue at hand....NO! My grandfather was killed with a 22LR does that make it the be all end all of firepower? I ask for documanted tests and this is the garbage I get? REALLY?!?! What does gunning down unarmed civis in the streer have to do with self defence situations anyway?

 

[Andrew Wyatt]

Glockbyte: you need to go back and look at the rules for linking from other sites.

 

[Kachok]

If the champions of the 5.7 cult are Mexican drug gangs and Major Hasan that is just plain sick. Are there no justified shootings involving the 5.7 stopping armed attackers?

 

[Skribs]

What I've learned over the last few years is that media reports are less accurate than wikipedia. Most rival uncyclopedia. There's a joke that according to the media, every handgun is a "glock revolver" (I've seen it in an article) and that every long gun is an AK-47. I've seen MP-5s tagged as "AK-47" in media posts.

A "cop killer" round is any round that has killed a cop. The media believes cops to be these magical people who are impervious to bullets unless you use specific "cop killer rounds."

Heck, there are several posts probably still up in General Discussion which talk about the media. There was one where this lady is going on and on about how all-plastic guns can get through security systems, and have been able to for decades, and we aren't doing anything to stop them. I guess she's referring to the Glock 7 from Die Hard 2?

Point of the above is that you can't use the media as a reliable source for firearms information, for the most part. Their job isn't to get facts right, it's to tell a story. "Cop killer" is a lot more emotion-wrenching than "yawing". Most people aren't going to know what the TWC is or how the speed of a 5.7 affects that, including the reporters.

ETA: Kachok, I assume the reason the drug cartels want the FiveseveN is for the compact size of the weapon. Yes, the .223 is better, so the military will generally go with that. However, the .223 won't fit in a pistol grip, and is optimized for a much longer barrel. The 5.7 is a "PDW" round, which seem to be fairly niche rounds. I think most cops are better suited with a semi-auto/SMG combo (cheaper ammo) and most militaries will want full-size carbines.

 

[Loosedhorse]

A "cop killer" round is any round that has killed a cop.

Strangely, perhaps, I agree with that usage. An AP round that has not been used by a cop-killer, is IMHO not a "cop-killer bullet."

 

[Ankeny]

G|0cKbYtE what exactly do all those incidents prove?

Probably proves the 5.7 is more readily available...

 

[Skribs]

The problem, Loosedhorse, is that the media takes "cop killer bullet" to be a bullet designed to kill cops (because if it can kill a cop, it can obviously pierce through any known body armor, because all cops are covered head-to-foot in kevlar...note that what's in these parenthises is sarcasm except for this statement explaining that it is sarcasm), and therefore needs to be banned.

Ammunition which can kill cops can stop bad guys. Banning ammunition which has killed cops prevents me from effectively defending myself when there are no cops in the equation (just me and a home invader). Thus, the whole "cop killer" thing is the start of a slippery slope to us having to use slingshots for SD.

 

[Loosedhorse]

Fair enough. It's just funny that when the whole cop-killer bullet ban came about, the anti-ban argument was that hard alloy didn't make a bullet a "cop-killer"; now the argument seems to be that we should confine the use of that term to hard-alloy bullets.

But I do see your point.

 

[Kachok]

I am on the fence over allowing AP rounds in handguns, handloaders have been able to do that for years, but you don't run across too many bad guys shooting cops with their custom handloaded ammunition. I was in LE back in the 90s I don't like the idea of some gangster being able to pull a pistol out of his console and shooting through my vest, but on the flip side I am a strong supporter of our right to bare arms, and don't like Washington messing with that. I guess the ultamate solution would be issueing Dragon Skin armor to all LE officers. That is some tough stuff, it even stops steel core 5.56x45 and 7.62X39 rounds!! No 5.7x28 or 454 Casull could ever dream of punching through that making it a non issue.
17HMR is able to punch right through vests too, but it never get a stupid nick name like cop killer.

 

[Skribs]

Has the 17HMR been used to kill cops, and then the story was covered in a widely publicized article?

I am a strong supporter of our right to bare arms

I agree, tank-tops are amazing! (Sorry for the sarcastic grammar-nazi moment).

 

[DmL5]

That is a sissy pressure slow as heck

And so is the SS197SR in the gelatin test you just posted. The temporary cavity is also not backlit or dyed like the 9mm was in the other test.

Please note the lack of spiral bruising like the 9mm had.

There is no such thing manifested in either test. That is complete fabrication on your part. You're looking at (visually enhanced) temporary cavities; nothing more, nothing less.

The LEA's that have been involved in OIS's with that weapon have ditched it in favor of 5.56's all day long.

Wrong.

You're regurgitating misinformation you read on an internet forum. Go ahead and try to cite an actual verifiable source for that claim.

I know of no military or NGO that carries that weapon for any reason.

Now you do:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FN_P90#Users
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FN_Five-seven#Users

Note that all of the users listed in the above links are each externally sourced so they are not sourced from Wikipedia; they were merely compiled at Wikipedia.

what exactly do all those incidents prove?

That the round kills, and more importantly, that it does so consistently.

Point of the above is that you can't use the media as a reliable source for firearms information, for the most part.

Wrong.

There are Five-seveN pistols, 5.7x28mm cartridges, and 5.7x28mm casings shown in many of the accompanying photographs. Furthermore, most or all of the articles linked earlier actually describe the caliber itself (5.7x28); it is quite clear all of the aforementioned sources are accurate. The same goes for all of the first-hand accounts from witnesses of the Fort Hood shooting.

 

[Skribs]

Yes, I realize that the 5-7 is used there. However, what I'm saying is you can't rely on newspaper articles to give accurate information. They sensationalize and bias it. I've seen articles on "5 facts of science" that are on the borderline of science-fiction and fantasy. Just because an article says that the 5-7 is magic doesn't mean it is.

Part of the problem is you've linked and quoted a ton of information, most of it irrelevant to the question at hand - comparing pistol calibers, or in this case the 5.7 to the "standard" calibers. I read several paragraphs about how Hassan wanted something with a high magazine capacity, and had nothing to do with the actual round. Then there was what the store owner said, which I wouldn't exactly call the most authoritative source on the subject.

What I see on the Fort Hood shooting is 32 injured and 13 dead, which leads me to believe the bullet isn't magic. The person who took him down was wounded, so even though the 5.7 wounded, it didn't magically stop that person. I don't think it's a bad round, personally, but I don't think it's magic, either.

------------------------------------------------

I also think we're going to get nowhere in this thread linking pictures of gel tests. People are going to read them the way they want to read them, as is apparent. What we need is pictures of gel tests where it is clearly labeled what was temporary cavity and what was permanent cavity. On all of the ones linked so far, I haven't actually seen the difference explained on the page, it's been up to the interpretation of us.

 

[Kachok]

OK DmL5 I was going to leave you alone now but since you wanted to jump right back into the fray here we go.
The 5.7 round tested was shot from a 16" barrel giving it 2400fps near S4 performance, and MUCH higher then your regular over the counter stuff in a pistol length barrel. You just vomited up a sub par 880fps test of a different bullet claiming it was the same thing, an outright LIE and you knew it, shame on you!
How do a few news articles of unarmed people being executed by a 5.7 prove that it kills consistently in self defence situations? There have been many cases where people have been shot by that caliber multiple times that have lived just fine afterwards. Besides I never said it could not kill, in fact I said the opposite if you actualy READ what I posted. I just hold to the fact that it simply will not out perform a modern +P 9mm JHP against soft tissue, and the science supports that. If there was some kind of "magic" to the 5.7 then why oh why did the 9mm outperform it so drasicly at the same energy levels? Same lab, same gel, same calibration you really cannot get more fair then that.
Why all the misinformation and lies to try to support your case? Just stick to what we can reserch and evaluate.
The day caliber, mass, and momentum no longer mean anything to terminal performance I will start deer hunting with a .17 Fireball

 

[Kachok]

I wrote EA and they said that they do not offer S4M or other high performance ammo to the genral public at this time. They will be offering a special limited run of S4 ammo to the public for a short period of time so it is not illigal but don't count on being available for the long term, they did not specify if the performance was the same as the LE spec. So we are both right, you cannot buy it now, but you will be able to in 11 days for a short period of time.
I cannot vouch for their ammo, but the customer service is out of this world, a real person replied to my e-mail in no time
At over a dollar a pop performance does not come cheap, but that is true in any caliber.

 

[Mike1234567]

So... if one wants the full performance this caliber is capable of in a commercially available offering then buy big, wait long, and pray it's offered again?

 

[DmL5]

Just because an article says that the 5-7 is magic doesn't mean it is.

No news source posted in this thread said any such thing. The dozens upon dozens of articles did nothing except document actual shootings that happened to have been done with the 5.7x28mm.

Part of the problem is you've linked and quoted a ton of information, most of it irrelevant to the question at hand

The 5.7x28mm kills, and does so consistently, even with FN's watered down ammunition. That is entirely relevant to this topic. Tenths of an inch and temporary cavities are not relevant to the topic because we already know how the round performs in actual human bodies.

What I see on the Fort Hood shooting is 32 injured and 13 dead, which leads me to believe the bullet isn't magic.

29 wounded, and most of the survivors were shot in extremities and other non-vital areas of their bodies.

The person who took him down was wounded, so even though the 5.7 wounded, it didn't magically stop that person.

Completely false. You're recycling misinformation.

Sgt. Kimberly Munley returned fire before being hit, but she did not hit the killer. Sgt. Mark Todd stopped the killer. She was incapacitated (and nearly died) as a result of her leg wounds. The bullet shattered her femur into "hundreds of bone fragments" according to her personal comments on her blog, as well as other news sources. According to her blog, she subsequently underwent a complete knee replacement operation and she won't be able to do patrol work anymore.

http://sgtmunley.blogspot.com/


"I was given a second chance at life. I was also fortunate to not lose my leg. The awesome surgeons were able to do an arterial graph and repair my femoral artery. But for a couple of days, there were unsure about the outcome and if I was going to be able to keep my leg at all."

"I stay in a lot of pain because the bottom of my femor is blown into hundreds of bone fragments that are pushed into my muscle tissue and until the surgery, they will not be removed."


While we're on the subject of the Fort Hood shooting, by the way, the killer was hit with five 9mm bullets and survived.

The 5.7 round tested was shot from a 16" barrel

Wrong.

The last 5.7x28mm gelatin test you posted (the supposed "backlit" test) was showing SS197SR (at 1,700 ft/s) out of the Five-seveN pistol. Try to keep track of what you post.

You just vomited up a sub par 880fps test of a different bullet claiming it was the same thing, an outright LIE and you knew it, shame on you!

You just vomited up a sub-par 1,700 ft/s SS197SR test, claiming it was a fair comparison to the other 9mm's backlit and dyed temporary cavity in the other test; an "outright lie" and you knew it.

How do a few news articles of unarmed people being executed by a 5.7 prove that it kills consistently in self defence situations?

Dozens upon dozens of news articles and first-hand accounts of fatal shootings with the caliber prove that it kills, and does so consistently.

As for Fort Hood, the victims' innocence and lack of weapons is utterly irrelevant. They were not unmotivated. They were very intent on surviving and helping others survive. Many of the victims actually described feeling the effects of adrenalin during the shooting and as they were being shot at. Two of the victims even charged the shooter with chairs (both were killed they could reach him).

The heroine female police officer (Munley) was also intent on stopping the shooter but by all reports, was incapacitated (and nearly died) by her leg wounds. The bullet shattered her femur into "hundreds of bone fragments" according to her personal comments on her blog, as well as other news sources. According to her blog, she subsequently underwent a complete knee replacement operation and she won't be able to do patrol work anymore.

If there was some kind of "magic" to the 5.7 then why oh why did the 9mm outperform it so drasicly at the same energy levels?

You're looking at a backlit, dyed temporary cavity, which is completely meaningless, just like the rest of the fiction you've spewed in this thread.

They will be offering a special limited run of S4 ammo to the public for a short period of time so it is not illigal but don't count on being available for the long term,

Limited for the year. Clue: we are near the end of 2011. EA has always offered S4 in runs, and they will continue to do so. Sorry.

 

[DmL5]

So... if one wants the full performance this caliber is capable of in a commercially available offering then buy big, wait long, and pray it's offered again?

No.

That is what the fictionmonger would like you to believe. EA has offered the S4 load for years now and they will continue to do so. They are simply coming up on the last big run of ammo for this year (2011).

 

[Kachok]

It makes for a good excuse to take up handloading. I picked up a press when I got a 6.5x55 SE, factory loads are made for 100+ year old mausers, my modern action can take a heck of alot more pressure then that, so now I have a super Sweed pushing near 2800fps with a 140gr bullet, a full 250fps over factory fodder, and 30-06 energy/momentum at 200yards and beyond, not bad for a 120 year old sissy kicking caliber.
I am sure you could match or exceed S4 speeds with the right powder, though I personaly would go with a 40-55gr bullet due to the higher momentum/sectional density, not quite as fast but as we have already established speed is not everything.
Edit. Who is calling who a fictionmonger, this coming from the same guy who just got caught lying his butt off trying to discredit me, busted red handed, that little stunt lost you any and all credit in this forum.
I was only repeating what the e-mail told me, don't beleve me? Wright them yourself and see what they say. Limited run, Oct 15-31th last run of the year.

 

[DmL5]

Wright them yourself and see what they say. Limited run, Oct 15-31th last run of the year.

That's what I just said. They are simply coming up on the last big run of S4 for this year (2011). End of story. EA has offered the S4 load for years now and they will continue to do so.

 

[Slvrwrx]

The only ammunition EA restricted to LEO is their old barnes banded solids loads, they called DevastaTOR's. S4 is no longer made because S4M has replaced it. They only offer it when they have the components to load it, same with all of their other offerings. Only the DevastaTOR is restricted to LEO, not anything else of EA's current lineup.. I'd be more than willing to bet they meant that year round S4M is offered to LEO as they need it if they have it..

 

[Kachok]

Direct quote from their website.

S4 Ultra RapTOR LEO Duty Round, CCW, Self Defense Hollow Point with higher degree of penetration. Green Lead Free bullet.

ProtecTOR II LEO Duty round, CCW and Self Defense Night Stand load

S4M LEO Duty Round, CCW, Self Defense Hollow Point with higher degree of penetration. Green Lead Free bullet.

Check it out yourself if you think I am making this up. http://www.eliteammunition.net/57_CHART.html

 

[Skribs]

UK Crime stats

According to this, since knives kill more civilians than guns, the knife is the uber self defense weapon.

The number of civilians killed by a weapon doesn't make it an optimum weapon.

And the fact that only 28% shot at Ft Hood died means that the round itself doesn't simply "kill." It failed to kill 72% of the time. I don't see it as that much more powerful than anything else.

 

[DmL5]

UK Crime stats

According to this, since knives kill more civilians than guns, the knife is the uber self defense weapon.

That is an incredibly poor analogy. Knives may be more very commonly used, but that does not mean they consistently kill when used. The 5.7x28mm kills, and does so consistently, even with FN's watered down ammunition; and that has been established by dozens upon dozens of shootings.

And the fact that only 28% shot at Ft Hood died means that the round itself doesn't simply "kill." It failed to kill 72% of the time. I don't see it as that much more powerful than anything else.

I addressed that in my last post. Try to keep up. Most of the survivors at Fort Hood were shot in extremities and other non-vital areas of their bodies; of course they weren't killed. If you think that's bad, see:


http://articles.cnn.com/2011-02-06/...ng-multiple-shell-casings-student?_s=PM:CRIME

Two men were arrested Sunday in connection with a shooting that left an Ohio university student dead and 11 other people wounded, police said.

<snip>

The shooting happened at a house where members of the Omega Psi Phi fraternity were holding a party, Hughes said.

<snip>

Authorities found multiple shell casings from two semiautomatic handguns, one a .40-caliber and the other a .45-caliber, Hughes said.

Direct quote from their website.

S4 Ultra RapTOR LEO Duty Round, CCW, Self Defense Hollow Point with higher degree of penetration. Green Lead Free bullet.

ProtecTOR II LEO Duty round, CCW and Self Defense Night Stand load

S4M LEO Duty Round, CCW, Self Defense Hollow Point with higher degree of penetration. Green Lead Free bullet.

Check it out yourself if you think I am making this up. http://www.eliteammunition.net/57_CHART.html

Do you not know what CCW is? The S4 load is offered to anyone for LEO duty, CCW, or self defense purposes.

 

[DmL5]

Edit. Who is calling who a fictionmonger, this coming from the same guy who just got caught lying his butt off trying to discredit me, busted red handed, that little stunt lost you any and all credit in this forum.

Has anyone else had trouble following this man's incoherent, childish blather? What a trainwreck. He apparently got bored with polluting this thread and he is now spamming my PM inbox with more of the same; I have received no less than six garbled, barely intelligible private messages from him in the last 24 hours. how can he be so obsessed with a caliber or gun without even owning it.

 

[Kachok]

OK there is a bunch of confusion about my oppinion on the 5.7x28 so let me clear the air once and for all, if you get mixed up after this there is no hope for you.

1 The 5.7x28 IS a suitable defence caliber especaly with modern high power loads and quality bullets
2 The 5.7 is NOT the king of terminal performance, it won't match the +P 9mm loads but it's ultra high capasity and rapid fire charactoristics makes up for the difference in damage per shot.
3 The factors that hinder the 5.7 in the defence market are the short supply of high performance ammo and less then impressive results of the low power stuff that FN markets to us civis. The prices of practice ammo and the one pistol that chambers it does raise an eyebrow too.

The 5.7 might be for you if.
You are highly recoil shy.
You train for rapid follow up shots (recomended for anyone)
You like carrying 60+ rounds for your CC weapon.
You like poly guns over steel, since you only get one choice.
You handload so you can get AE level performance even if AE supplys run dry or more gov banns kill the factory high performance ammo.
The thought of having to fight armord attackers is always crossing your mind.
You just want something different then your friends at the range.

The 5.7 might not be for you if.
You expect one shot drops (yeah right)
You like being able to buy cheap ammo at any Wal-Mart or country hardware store.
Loud cracking muzzle blast bothers you even with your hearing protection.
You are a good enough shot not to need 20-30rd mags.
You like the ability to engauge attackers on the far side of common barriers.

I think my conclusion is completly fair, would anyone disagree?