The California experience

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by Zoogster, Mar 24, 2018.

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  1. Zoogster

    Zoogster Member

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    I had said goodbye last summer, and have since relocated most guns, disassembled others and may have destroyed or gotten rid of others.
    I doubt I could even recall where they are, but should be out of state.
    Retaining only the most basic firearm in the state.

    I have a busy life and cannot be bothered trying to keep up with a state intent on making me a criminal. At this point I believe I am 'legal' and won''t even discuss where or how or anything else about current or formerly owned firearms because what is legal continues to change and I don't know if that will violate some future law I don't keep up with.

    At this point in time I want to focus on business and family, and nobody seems willing to actually stand up physically, and I can see the slow loss legislatively.

    The writing is on the wall, the nation will be disarmed over time, government has always wanted it and always will want only agents of the government to be well armed, it is in their best interest even if not in the interest of the individual. That was understood by the founders and why it was a restriction put on the government.

    Our cultural values that supported guns are also rapidly changing, and part of that is the rapidly changing demographics of our nation.
    Immigrants are brought in at an extraordinary rate both legal and illegal, backed both by states and politicians that like how they lean politically.
    While big business likes to hire the cheapest workers with the skill set they need. At this time that means Mexicans for menial work, and Indians for skilled work. Any opinions that may interfere with that could impact a business' bottom line and will be made unacceptable at the professional level, aka topics that may cost you your job.
    It doesn't have to have anything to do with ideology, or what is or is not best for the nation, their ideology is their bottom line!
    Most business has no loyalty to our nation anymore, with production in one nation, HQ or other management in another, and the US merely a market for goods. They support whatever policies favor that and will pretend to believe in whatever other reasons are politically feasible to accomplish that.

    Large tech companies are making things like the freedom of speech meaningless. Facebook, Google, Apple, and I could go on and on with companies that most Americans rely on now being against firearms and the firearm culture. Youtube is owned by google and will increasingly not support or allow firearms, just as the ability to trade or sell them like other goods through ebay ended so long ago, so will the ability to share the firearm culture on mainstream social media. When the only place for guns is gun only places, they are easily marginalized and defeated.
    People have also lost anonymity on the internet for the most part being linked and tracked through social media at both a professional and personal level and having a strong opinion on anything may reduce your employment or other opportunities in life, which means you better not actually exercise your freedom of speech!

    Urban places continue to grow and the rural space in between continues to shrink. Urban places generally feel more entitled to controlling what other people can do, and generally are less favorable to guns, that means just geographically we will have less firearm support as time goes on. Even places like Texas are starting to flip, and that was once considered around the world as the most cowboy, gun toting, etc place you could go.

    I had hope the South would keep things at bay, and the rest of the nation would benefit at the federal level as it relates to firearms. While I don't support slavery or various other things of the confederacy and may not even support the confederacy at all, I know the removal of the rebel culture and rebel icons and confederate supporting statutes and other historical things will over time also erase the rebel spirit and a willingness to thwart the federal government. The rebel spirit has long enabled the South to do what they want irregardless of what D.C. says. That I believe was one of the strongest reasons gun rights had little to fear in the South and why the feds could only go so far at a time. That is changing now too.

    I hope you guys keep the pace slowed so I can benefit, but I think there is only so many more decades of firearm rights left in America and they will continue to diminish.
    The computer databases and increasing use of AI and surveillance and other automation also means government will be increasingly capable of accomplishing more and retaliating better, and government never has been in favor of arms that pose a threat to it or increase the resources it must expend. The less armed the population the fewer well armed law enforcers required to impose and enforce things.

    I do welcome opinions to the contrary, and would like to hear why that is not the case.
     
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  2. LNK

    LNK Member

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    Stop being so negative. When CT passed the legislation to register magazines that held more than 10 rounds after Sandy Hook, they had single digit % compliance. That is in a very Blue CT. NY had a similar record. The good news is that they are getting bolder and just might go for the gusto, which would be a mistake. They would be better off slowly working on the next 2 generations than to pull a ban. I think they might go for the ban, which would fail miserably. So, don't go getting your knickers in a twist just yet.

    LNK
     
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  3. JO JO

    JO JO Member

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    I think your correct as they are brainwashing the schools and the youth "molding them to their likes" so yes as these brainwashed youths become our future our future will change I was watching the news as some of the anti gun youth protesters spoke today and one said "IF YOU DO NOT CHANGE THE LAWS NOW WE WILL VOTE YOU OUT AND FILL YOUR SEAT" these youths will be voting soon and with the schools pushing the liberal views starting in grade school through collage the next decade of new voters will be anti gun anti freedom and pro socialist votes.
    Unless folks start to push back and start putting the schools on notice that we want our schools teaching education NOT political views and agendas we will for sure face a different America in a decade or two
    This anti American movement is just pushing a more divided Country and they are very loud willing to fight and riot, and not backing down , the silent majority needs to start speaking up before we become steamrolled into becoming a minority and loose our rights for good.
     
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  4. yokel

    yokel Member

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    Logic and reason are lost on those who blindly seek to disarm and then enslave the American citizenry. No amount of logical discourse, historical observation, or simple rational use of the English language will dissuade them from their "beliefs". The crux of the gun argument comes to down to who will prevail in the long run, and what level of force will be required to win: those who cherish liberty, or those who just have no faith in the basic goodness of humanity, those who think that the law functions because people are afraid of the consequences of breaking those laws, or those who see the law as an extension of what good people view as "right". I have had the latter argument with law school graduates who only see the law as an instrument of force; it is those same people who truly think that humans have to be "controlled" or else complete havoc will be unleashed. Those people are what I call The Enemies of Freedom; they will never cease nor will they ever admit that the Second Amendment means that citizens of the U.S. have what is supposed to be an uninfringed right to keep and bear arms. Before this argument is settled, there are going to be some very interesting times in America.
     
  5. luzyfuerza

    luzyfuerza Member

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    I had to come to california for a quick visit this weekend. The suffocating putrescence of government oppression is palpable here. Yet so many inmates don't seem to mind.

    Personally, one of the happiest days of my life was when I moved out of this mess, never to live here again.

    Edited to add: I hated to have to leave my carry piece at home for this quick trip. Utah, Nevada, and so many other states think that I'm ok to carry a firearm concealed. Why not california? Hint: its not because I suddenly become a danger to my fellow citizens when I cross the border...
     
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2018
  6. CoalTrain49

    CoalTrain49 Member

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    You must be in CA.

    Yeah, that's a real mess. The whole west coast is a mess.

    Must be the marine air.

    I think it all started when the hippies moved into SF.
     
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2018
  7. Flechette

    Flechette Member

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    I understand your alarm and sorrow. Believe me, I really do.

    But let me ask you this: Why is the Alamo remembered so fondly by Texans when the defenders were completely defeated?

    Answer: Because they fought on principle and never gave up.
     
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  8. Water-Man

    Water-Man Member

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    " They would be better off slowly working on the next 2 generations than to pull a ban."

    They don't have to work on these generations. They are doing it on their own.
     
  9. JeeperCreeper

    JeeperCreeper Member

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    Just hold on. When homemade laser guns become a thing soon, the powers at be will not be able to contain it.

    I'm actually not kidding. Technology will make it easier to control people, but it may also be the downfall of control.
     
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  10. barnbwt

    barnbwt member

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    Homemade guns are a hundreds-years-old tech that can't be contained, yet illegal machineguns are a rarity due to the stiff punishments. The same goes for illegal store-bought lasers above the allowable power levels already, what makes you think that will change just because batteries improve?

    That's only part of it. The other part, the major part at the time, is it was an utterly brutal, repugnant war crime that hadn't been seen by anyone on the American side since the Revolution, and was emblematic of the kind of tyranny embodied by the Mexican attackers. The killing and later execution of every person there later grew into the mythos we see today. Knowing what awaited after defeat is what motivated the subsequent victory at Goliad.
     
  11. brewer12345

    brewer12345 Member

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    If the powers that be move too quickly, I fear we will see an armed domestic conflict. I think they know that and will proceed slowly. It is up to us to continue pushing back.
     
  12. SharpDog

    SharpDog Member

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    I work in tech and those are several of the reasons I don't take jobs on the west coast or the greater NYC or Boston areas.
     
  13. danez71

    danez71 Member

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    In replying about the Alamo....

    Seems history is recorded a bit different than your recollection.

    Texas did win a separate battle at Goliad but that happened in 1835 before thr Alamo and before any of the above happened and even before the battle of Concepcion.


    But your last sentence I made bold begs the question..... What the heck happened?

    You see what has happened in the defeat of NY, CA etc and you've even called it a defeat.

    But you and so many others have the mentality of this pic?

    Is it because TX (and the like) wanted the benefits of the Feds but not have to worry about other states?


    Because now whats happening, again, is those other states that so many say are a lost cause and should be abandoned are the ones pushing the Feds to ram things like the bump stock ban down your throats... and it's history repeating it's self because some of those same state are the ones that pushed the Feds to hand you the AWB in 94. Those are the states that have sent Feinstein, Boxer and now Harris to the Fed level.

    Dismissing and promoting the abandonment of the other states while shouting states rights is sometimes also promoting a Democratic rule and forgetting that we are a Republic and are all in the same boat together.


    Again, what the heck happened cause I see floods of talk of retreating in the guise of states rights in all the forum sections with just splashes of rallying the troops talk occasionally thrown in.

    Why does the pic illustrate the mind set of far too many supposedly pro 2A for all people.

    'Don't Tread on Me' wasn't ever meant in the singular sense. In fact, it's roots, along with ' Join or Die ' go back to the 13 colonies banning together
     

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  14. BSA1

    BSA1 member

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    Then you are part of the problem. Many British subjects living in America were probably to busy to be bothered with fighting for independence from the Crown.

    The war in California is lost. I think in 10 more years the gun laws in California will be so strict that England's will be liberal in comparison. I do not think it is unlikely that California may decide to become a separate country trying to control all of the West coast.

    You are correct that California is a model for the rest of the country but not the way you think it is. Many of us are watching the California and passing pro-2A State laws to prevent such things from happening. Kansas is one example of how pro-gun the laws can be. The majority of the States are pro-gun and we are having considerable success with passing more favorable laws. Consider enacting conceal carry laws for just one example.

    It is difficult to make choices that directly affect our family and businesses. But it was a even harder choice for our Founding Fathers some of whom lost everything.
     
  15. danez71

    danez71 Member

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    I agree with your 1st parts but not the 2nd part.


    It sounds fine and dandy but the fact is that the Feds have handed you the AWB of 94 and about to again with the bump fire stocks at the encouragement and bill proposing from the states everyone wants to give up on is proof that its fundamentally flawed to think that youre fine as long as your state is fine so just worry about your own state.


    It took the 13 colonies to defeat the oppressive rule. They didn't win because of an 'every state for them self' mentality.
     
  16. JO JO

    JO JO Member

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    True ,
    look at California their twisted leadership a horrible mindset just a dirt bag state BUT they are influencing and spreading their poison throughout the Nation , That one state has what 30 % of the electoral votes
    that 1 state does have a huge impact on the federal government I think the mentality of not in my state just allows them to get stronger and spread their ways faster ,
    I think it is a bigger issue then Im good it wont happen here I think they are looking to change how future votes think and vote , maybe not your state today but a decade down the road it will be your state ,
    look at Texas a hard core red state that is now turning purple because of left wing collages and California migration , see these folks are spreading and bringing their views and votes with them ,
    california has now for the most part took over the west coast , the big citys are out voting the rest of the of a state and control a whole state , look at oregon the state is mostly very pro gun but portland outvotes the rest a decides for the state , sorry for being so negative but I am so tired of this anti american movement and these dirt bags marching and protesting and so on to give our rights away ,
     
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2018
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  17. barnbwt

    barnbwt member

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    Oh damn, I confused myself; Battle of San Jacinto (Texians stomped Santa Anna after he had gone all 'scorched Earth', culminating with the Alamo & Goliad). I got them backwards last night, sorry about that. Germans & Pearl Harbor, man.

    As far as your subsequent comments? Did Houston try to fight the battle of the Alamo or Goliad over again? No. He took volunteers who had joined out of fear/anger from these areas, fled north a ways with a highly mobile army, trained and organized them, and then engaged them at a place of his choosing with a plan.

    A better plan than waiting in place to die, following a failed strategy in a poor location against a massive organized force.

    War strategy is a terrible metaphor for politics, though, which is why I was only pointing out (mistakenly ;)) the fear motivation aspect of the Alamo on subsequent victories.

    Politics is more like a zombie battle or something, where victories make subsequent victories much easier than in warfare, which is a continuous drain of resources. Losing bumpstocks and young gun owners does not cost FL antis resources to hold, it only fuels donations and volunteers to press farther. Which is why I say if Trump/NRA had been quiet or resolute for even two more weeks after Parkland or Vegas, antis in FL wouldn't have had the momentum to swing Republican legislators. Which is why I say the resources pro-gun super minorities supply to anti-gun strongholds by staying far outweigh the advocacy they can achieve behind enemy lines. Which is why I stand so firm against new restrictions, even on 'silly"' bump fires or 'stupid' kids under 21 in places like Texas or nationally.

    You gotta know when to hold, and when to fold. Besieged gun owners only seem to understand the former, the NRA and federal Republicans the latter. Possibly because you guys don't get together much anymore because of your choice of geography. FL could have used a lot more CA gun owners with fresh memories of what happens if they placate the Parkland kids, even a little. NYers too.
     
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  18. danez71

    danez71 Member

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    History shows they did. See above. Not a good point for me to make though because they got slaughtered the 2nd time.


    I agree. I've said the same thing recently.

    Disagree again. Well, half disagree. Way too much talk here on THR of folding far too often.
     
  19. barnbwt

    barnbwt member

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    I'd just like a plausible explanation of what scattered forces in CA hope to achieve. A test-case is a real possibility, since progun districts don't have these laws to challenge, but the district courts consistently fail to hold reasonable rulings (and go en banc to override any odd partial bench ruling) and SCOTUS sits by as this binding legal precedent builds and solidifies. Will SCOTUS realistically strike down precedents in a majority of districts that have the opportunity to rule on AWBs, after toleraring them for decades?

    So besides the judicial gambit, what is there?
     
  20. Quiet

    Quiet Member

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    California is a test bed State.
    Anti-gun groups look to it as the test bed on what they can pass in other States and how to make it "better".

    Before the mid-1980s, California was Republican controled and was NFA friendly (under CA laws, the only NFA items that were prohibited was Title 2 Silencers). So, anti-gun groups/forces worked to change CA, because they believed if they could do it in CA, they can be able to do in other States.

    The key to their success was taking over a major urban population center.
    Depending on the population of the State, having control over one or more urban areas would generate enough voting/political power to bully the rest of the State.

    So for CA, it was the SF Bay area and the LA metro area.
    ^If you remove those areas, CA would be fully conservative and pro-gun.

    Once they were able to fully control those areas, they were able to pass gun control laws.
    First it was incremental changes to existing laws to close "loopholes", then it became "common sense" restrictions, and finally it's outright bans/prohibitions.

    In the early days, there was a lot of complacency on the part of CA gun owners. Lots of "that will never happen here" talk and then suprise/shock that anti-gun legislation got passed because not that many voters activily opposed it. During the "common sense" days, several "pro-gun" CA groups sold out in order to obtain exemptions for their groups in exchange for support of the anti-gun laws. Now, it's simple fact that gun owning voters are outnumbered by all the progressive and liberal voters. It doesn't help that the progressives and liberals made it legal for CA to issue CA DL/ID to undocumented immigrants, who in turn vote for whatever the progressives/liberals want.

    The CA model for taking over a State has been imported to other States...
    OR = Portland
    WA = Seatle
    CO = Denver
    NV = Las Vegas
    TX = Austin

    People in battleground States need to identify and curtail the progressive growth in ubran areas, in order to prevent their State in becoming like CA. Don't be complacent thinking that it'll never happen here, because that's how CA got to where it's at.
     
  21. Zoogster

    Zoogster Member

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    California was actually quite conservative and had better gun rights than most of the east coast, and even a lot of the nation in the 1980s. When the gang culture exploded California began down the road it is on now with the population being duped into given up their rights.
    Prior to that they got scared of the armed black panthers and started the initial restrictions when Republican champ Ronald Reagan banned open carry.
    Later Republican champ Ronald Reagan would also grant Amnesty to millions of illegals, most of whom lived in California and while the Bay Area was already quite left leaning from the influx of every demographic that didn't fit in in the rest of the country flooding to it in the 1960s, the state didn't become permanently blue until Reagan gave amnesty and added millions of votes to the other side.


    The middle the country cannot stand against the coasts.

    This is much bigger than Republican/Democrat, but the only reason Trump won is the electoral college, which barely allowed both Trump and George W. Bush in his first election to get in power.
    They lost the popular vote, and the demographic changes in the US mean they will continue to lose ground, because the growing parts of our population are not conservatives.


    The middle of the nation has less population and also spends more government money than it generates. The feds get most of their money from New York, California, and yes Texas. The states that generate most of the federal government's money are left leaning.

    Look up the many graphs and maps of federal taxes vs federal spending. As well as total revenue generated, as well as per capita, and you start to see something. Here is one that spans a good couple decades covering federal spending vs revenue:

    20110806_WOM959_0.gif

    Much of the conservative generally more pro-gun America make the feds less money than they cost them or break even.
    Like it or not California, New Jersey, Massachusetts, Connecticut, Rhode Island, Illinois, New York, and etc with the most restrictive gun laws in the nation pay for Louisiana, Mississippi, Alabama, Arizona, etc with strong gun rights.

    Why does that matter? Well money is what the government operates on and you better believe they take note. It also means the people it relies on the most to accomplish what it does are generally from more left leaning liberal areas that generally have less firearm freedom. Texas, Ohio, and Pennsylvania tow the line, but the feds definitely depend more on left leaning anti-gun locations to fund the government.
     
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2018
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  22. old lady new shooter

    old lady new shooter Member

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    SF, LA, SD, all the big cities are now like living in a third-world country -- millions of people living on the street, which they also use as an open-air latrine, rampant disease and crime... So happy I'm leaving.
     
  23. old lady new shooter

    old lady new shooter Member

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    More people are leaving CA than moving in. A large percentage of those moving in are illegal aliens. Which is why the PTB there want to be a sanctuary state. But losing taxpayers while gaining dependents is not a good way to stay afloat. Maybe not this year or next year, but CA will go bankrupt.
     
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  24. JO JO

    JO JO Member

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    If California goes under that would be a good thing, are they allowing illegals to vote in their system, it would seem California should loose some of its electoral power and voting influence
    Like said about it is a mess for sure
     
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  25. tark

    tark Member

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    The Democratic party will never allow California to leave the union. They need those 50+ Electoral votes, in presidential elections.

    I left the state in 1990, just before the original "assault weapon" ban took place in the state. Illinois has their stupid FOID card, and short waiting periods on new purchases, but otherwise it is not too bad a state, gun-wise.
     
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