The case for the .243 as a deer cartridge.

[HowieG]

While those articles are interesting, I know what exits and wound tracts I've personally examined, and if we get past the opinion of 350 lb deer being bullet proof, I know what a slurry of 6mm pills will do at many various impact velocities on quite a few different shot angles. We can include .22 cf on good sized muleys too if you like.

I never meant to imply that I thought 350 lb mule deer are bullet proof. First, we don't have many, if any, 350 lb deer here unless they are called elk. What I will state outright is that I have rifles in the safe that will do a better job than my 243 with less effort. My carbine has a pretty stout barrel on it and it weighs in at 8 lbs with optic. For that weight, I can shoot 100 grain bullets at 2700 or so, but I do have a fake hip. My Tikka T3 Hunter weighs in at just under 7 lbs with optic and shoots 130 grain Accubonds at 2800 fps. If I wanted to shoot 22 I could use my 22-250 with a 50 TTSX which works well for me at my altitude, but again my Tikka weighs a 1/2 lb less than my Cooper and shoots harder farther so what do you think I grab when the nuts need cutting?

The only advantage my 243 carbine has is that it fits in my Wrangler really really well, but so does my 30-30 Marlin which I dare say is a better deer/elk slayer than my 243 as long as I keep it under 150 yards. Really the deal is that I just really like that carbine. The fact that mine is a 243 is secondary. It could be a 6mm Rem or a 308 for all I care. I don't have a great love affair with the 243 cartridge, but I don't dislike it. It's the least potent of all the 308 based cartridges, but it is still fine.

 

[HowieG]

could well be, we were shooting them in the late 90s from 30-06s and .300s. Id actually switched to Hornady bullets almost exclusively by the time i got my 7mm, so didn't try any besides the 120s in that cal till recently.

I tried these 120's in 6.5, but haven't used them in anything before or since. I use Hornady first, Sierra second, and Barnes/Nosler third with Speer a very distant fourth.

 

[LoonWulf]

I tried these 120's in 6.5, but haven't used them in anything before or since. I use Hornady first, Sierra second, and Barnes/Nosler third with Speer a very distant fourth.

I usually got Hornady, Nosler.....and that's about it lol. I really like Sierras, but rarely use them. I shots the 120gr nosler bts out of my 7-30 contender at 2400ish, and from my 7Mag at 3200ish.
I shot a lot of speers for a while, and still use them for accuracy testing, and in my .375, but the only real consistent bullet failures I've had were 150grs out of my 06s

 

[horsey300]

No, my failure was a 120 grain 6.5mm BT at 2900 fps. Target was a muley buck at 80 yds quartering away. I hit the back of the rib cage on the right side to angle forward into the chest and that bullet just flat blew up. Little bitty pieces. No penetration. Made a wound about four inches across and did bad things to the ribs under the impact point. Piece(s) of rib got the liver which is how I know what happened. After the BT first came out, there were a bunch of those stories circulating around. Add some range and it is supposed to be a winner. Accurate too. A 6mm BT moving a bit slower out of a carbine might be fine, but I am not buying a box to find out.

What I am playing with in the Mohawk 600 243 is the Sierra Game King 85 BTHP. The Ballistics Research guys say it's a winner. Little hollow point slows down expansion and allows the bullet to penetrate. I can drive them in the 2900 to 3000 fps range depending on the powder. Another supposedly good bullet is the Hornady 87 BTHP. I tried the 85 Partition and got great ballistic uniformity, but the darned things just don't want to group.

The 85 gameking has a tougher jacket than the 100 gameking I liked it well enough, the prohunters and 95gr sst SHOULD group well and do what you are looking for out of a short barrel, my old 100 gr round noses hit like a mack truck at 100-250, but when you reference longer shots the sst is the first I think of, if your rifle didn't like the Barnes or partition, how did it do with the 87? That thing was too long for the 788 to stabilize. I'd also suggest norma jaktmatch and oryx.

 

[Chuck R.]

After the first generation back in the 80s, Nosler supposedly toughened them up to take care of the blowing up issue. Maybe they did. Or, maybe they only worked with certain calibers, like the ones likely to be used on elk. Anyway, the first one I fired at live game blew up and left a bad taste in my mouth. I have heard that at extended range, they are much slower to expand, which would explain your find.

When they 1st came out in the late 80s I'd agree with you. I never lost an animal (deer, chamois & boar), but I did get some horrific damage on close shots, especially when you hit heavy bone. I've used Nosler BTs since they started and they were modified at one point. I've killed 40+ deer with them, 5 Chamois (Austria), and 3 Boar (Germany), the majority in .270 (130BT over 58.2 IMR 4831, 3130 FPS, 23.6" barrel), more recently .260 Rem (6), and a couple 30-06, two .300WM and all have been one shot kills from 30 to 300+ yards. A couple years ago we were culling does on a 1000 acre farm and I was shooting 5+ does and a buck a year with BTs. One "episode" was 4 does from 25-40 yards as they ran past me, it was the 1st and only deer stampede I've ever been in. The damage on them was about the same I'd expect from any 3100+ FPS cartridge at that distance.

The newer BTs have a thicker jacket and close to the rear 1/5 is solid copper:



The last 5 years of BT use:

 

[H&Hhunter]

Yes, the only difference that affects terminal performance between the .243 Winchester 100 grain and .308 Winchester 150 grain is projectile diameter and Sectional Density. Diameter favors the .308 and S.D. favors the .243. Which do you think contributes more to the terminal effectiveness of a load ?

Spoken like a man who's done some reading and little to no actual hunting. I've seen a Barnes TSX.150 gr .308 round punch through both shoulders of a big bull elk. As mentioned earlier SD is an indicator of penetration but bullet construction negates the importance and theoretical predicted penetration of SD somewhat. And as Craig mentions above these things are inseparable. But given a good SD, weight (which of course indicates SD for a given diameter) and construction then we can compare apples to apples.

So if you want to compare penetration results between two calibers you've got to compare bullets with comparable SD's and like construction. Your comparison of a 150 gr .308 bullet and a 100 gr.243 are inconsequential. You'll need to compare a 165 gr .308 SD/.248 and a 100 Gr .243 SD/.242. Then you'll need to use bullets of the same construction. If both give adequate penetration for the medium being tested, the .308 will have more diameter and momentum with the heavier and bigger diameter bullet.

And I'll say it again, on deer it really doesn't matter, on small hogs it really doesn't matter. On bigger thicker built stuff you'll start to see a major difference.

 

[CraigC]

Well, I can clearly see why I feel differently about the .243 as a deer round, because I wouldn't take that shot no matter what rifle I had in my hand at the time.

I wouldn't hunt mule deer without a rifle/cartridge/bullet capable of that shot. Not sure why anyone wants to hunt with a cartridge/bullet that can't bust through a shoulder either, if necessary.

 

[Aletheia]

I wouldn't hunt mule deer without a rifle/cartridge/bullet capable of that shot. Not sure why anyone wants to hunt with a cartridge/bullet that can't bust through a shoulder either, if necessary.

You seem to be astonishingly capable of completely missing most of the points made in this thread.

 

[earlthegoat2]

You seem to be astonishingly capable of completely missing most of the points made in this thread.

This thread is so long I may have missed some too. What were they again?

The one I got is that .243 is adequate for deer. I agree with this point even though I would never use one.

What were the other ones?

 

[CraigC]

You seem to be astonishingly capable of completely missing most of the points made in this thread.

What would those be, enlighten me?

 

[Hog huntin Harry]

Spoken like a man who's done some reading and little to no actual hunting

It's more a situation of little variety in hunting, I myself have never taken any game larger than CXP2 class. So any difference between .243 and .308 I'm mainly not going to notice.

 

[Hog huntin Harry]

I didn't realize how hot a topic .243 Winchester vs .308 Winchester is

 

[HowieG]

The 85 gameking has a tougher jacket than the 100 gameking I liked it well enough, the prohunters and 95gr sst SHOULD group well and do what you are looking for out of a short barrel, my old 100 gr round noses hit like a mack truck at 100-250, but when you reference longer shots the sst is the first I think of, if your rifle didn't like the Barnes or partition, how did it do with the 87? That thing was too long for the 788 to stabilize. I'd also suggest norma jaktmatch and oryx.

I haven't shot the Hornady 87 BTHP. I just read that it is pretty close in performance to the 85 BTHP game king. Can't see how it would be too long. Most, if not all, 243 rifles have the same twist unless they screwed up the barrel plus the 87 bthp wouldn't be as long as the Hornady 100 bthp. As far as Barnes goes, none of my rifles shoots the all copper bullets that well except for my Cooper 22-250. By 'not well' I mean large for me. Inch and a half tending towards two inch groups. Frankly, I don't complain about those same groups in a 30-30 lever gun. It's all perception. A two inch group would be fine out to 300 yards, so maybe I need to be less picky. As far as the partition goes, I always read they are great killers, not great shooters.

 

[HowieG]

I didn't realize how hot a topic .243 Winchester vs .308 Winchester is

This thread has some legs huh?

 

[HowieG]

When they 1st came out in the late 80s I'd agree with you. I never lost an animal (deer, chamois & boar), but I did get some horrific damage on close shots, especially when you hit heavy bone. I've used Nosler BTs since they started and they were modified at one point. I've killed 40+ deer with them, 5 Chamois (Austria), and 3 Boar (Germany), the majority in .270 (130BT over 58.2 IMR 4831, 3130 FPS, 23.6" barrel), more recently .260 Rem (6), and a couple 30-06, two .300WM and all have been one shot kills from 30 to 300+ yards. A couple years ago we were culling does on a 1000 acre farm and I was shooting 5+ does and a buck a year with BTs. One "episode" was 4 does from 25-40 yards as they ran past me, it was the 1st and only deer stampede I've ever been in. The damage on them was about the same I'd expect from any 3100+ FPS cartridge at that distance.

The newer BTs have a thicker jacket and close to the rear 1/5 is solid copper:

View attachment 968092

The last 5 years of BT use:

View attachment 968093
View attachment 968094
View attachment 968095
View attachment 968096
View attachment 968097
View attachment 968098

Well, I certainly am going to defer to your experience. I don't hunt big game that much. Apparently though, the problem hasn't really gone away, at least for certain calibers. I didn't lose my buck so all was well. It did give me a fright though. I thought I had missed. The deer jumped and then started looing around and moving back and forth. Then it finally fell down from internal blood loss. It wasn't quite dead when I got over to it. I will say that when I shoot a deer at 80 yards, I would like to see a through and through with a bucket of blood on the off side and a DRT (dead right there) result.

 

[HowieG]

I usually got Hornady, Nosler.....and that's about it lol. I really like Sierras, but rarely use them. I shots the 120gr nosler bts out of my 7-30 contender at 2400ish, and from my 7Mag at 3200ish.
I shot a lot of speers for a while, and still use them for accuracy testing, and in my .375, but the only real consistent bullet failures I've had were 150grs out of my 06s

The Speer I am playing with right now is the 6.5mm 120 Gold Dot bonded bullet. It's supposedly for personal protection, but I suspect it would work good on medium game. It shoots well in my rifle.

I have done a ton of testing/hunting with 224 bullets. I find that Sierra is maybe a bit more accurate than Hornady, but not enough to matter to me and the Hornady is also usually cheaper. I use Nosler and Barnes 40 grain hollow points quite a bit in my K Hornet. They both work equally well. My 224 Valkyrie prefers the Sierra 80 match king over the Hornady ELD. My 1885 Low Wall 223 just flat shoots everything I throw into it just fine, so I use whatever I have happen to have in the 50 grain range and usually that is the Hornady 50 VMax. My Ruger M77V 22-250 really likes the 40 grain VMax in front of IMR 4064, so that is all I use in it.

I find that if I open my bullet drawer, I see a bunch of red boxes. If I want another color box of bullets, I usually have to get up and paw through storage.

 

[HowieG]

Man! Whatnickname got his money's worth out of this thread. Everybody has a 243 opinion it seems. I have been sitting here trying to remember if I ever even killed anything with mine. I don't think I actually have unless I popped a jack rabbit somewhere. My carbine certainly isn't a pasture poodle shooter, not that I would use it for that. I have never even carried it for big game. I have used it on coyote stands that didn't work out. I believe I carried it on a javelina hunt a few years back, but a truck got to the only one I saw, so no joy there. Hmmm, I guess I need to get out and do something about that.......

 

[horsey300]

I haven't shot the Hornady 87 BTHP. I just read that it is pretty close in performance to the 85 BTHP game king. Can't see how it would be too long. Most, if not all, 243 rifles have the same twist unless they screwed up the barrel plus the 87 bthp wouldn't be as long as the Hornady 100 bthp. As far as Barnes goes, none of my rifles shoots the all copper bullets that well except for my Cooper 22-250. By 'not well' I mean large for me. Inch and a half tending towards two inch groups. Frankly, I don't complain about those same groups in a 30-30 lever gun. It's all perception. A two inch group would be fine out to 300 yards, so maybe I need to be less picky. As far as the partition goes, I always read they are great killers, not great shooters.

Savage uses a 1:9.25 Ruger 1:9 new remington 1:9.125 whilst all others are 1:10.

The Speer gold dots are a very hard bullet. They won't open fast and shocking but they will retain weight decently enough. For up close shoulder busting they work well, for extending the range, it'll be a smaller wound channel.

 

[CraigC]

The Speer I am playing with right now is the 6.5mm 120 Gold Dot bonded bullet. It's supposedly for personal protection, but I suspect it would work good on medium game. It shoots well in my rifle.

I got to test them out of the 6.5Grendel this week, on a roadkill six point buck I found in the front yard. The shoulder shot broke the onside shoulder and was found just under the hide on the other side. The double lung shot exited and was dug out of the ground. Still need to weigh the recovered bullets but it appears that they did what I wanted them to. Which is to say they expanded but held together and penetrated. Still hoping to shoot a doe with them before the season closes.

 

[HowieG]

Savage uses a 1:9.25 Ruger 1:9 new remington 1:9.125 whilst all others are 1:10.

The Speer gold dots are a very hard bullet. They won't open fast and shocking but they will retain weight decently enough. For up close shoulder busting they work well, for extending the range, it'll be a smaller wound channel.

My Mohawk 600 is 1 in 10 and I have had no problems stabilizing any bullet I have run through it up to the 100 grainers, boat tail or not. Obviously, I haven't tried any 105 or heavier match bullets in that gun. Waste of time.

By the way, I check twist rates by personal measurement. I know for a fact that factories screw up barrels, especially Remington (RIP) and the previous Winchester (US repeating arms). I know of Remington products coming out with NO rifling and I have personally see a Winchester M70 22-250 that had a bore so oversized it wouldn't stabilize a thing.

I got to test them out of the 6.5Grendel this week, on a roadkill six point buck I found in the front yard. The shoulder shot broke the onside shoulder and was found just under the hide on the other side. The double lung shot exited and was dug out of the ground. Still need to weigh the recovered bullets but it appears that they did what I wanted them to. Which is to say they expanded but held together and penetrated. Still hoping to shoot a doe with them before the season closes.

Sounds like pretty solid performance to me. It's nice you were afforded that opportunity for testing.

 

[HowieG]

For some reason, Speer skips over 6mm in the Gold Dot category. They might work pretty well in a .243.

 

[horsey300]

For some reason, Speer skips over 6mm in the Gold Dot category. They might work pretty well in a .243.

Look for a federal fusion

 

[LoonWulf]

For some reason, Speer skips over 6mm in the Gold Dot category. They might work pretty well in a .243.

Look for a federal fusion

Ive got about 100 fusions (we think) left if either of you wants them, I'm not loading .243s anymore.

 

[HowieG]

Ive got about 100 fusions (we think) left if either of you wants them, I'm not loading .243s anymore.

You don't need them to snipe pineapples with??

 

[LoonWulf]

You don't need them to snipe pineapples with??

.243s too light for Pineapples