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Discussion in 'NFA Firearms and Accessories' started by Demi-human, Apr 18, 2020.

  1. Demi-human

    Demi-human Member

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    Good morning!

    Very recently I have become more interested in suppressors. Past the normal “Oh, man! That would be sweet!”.
    It has become time to get one.

    I find them more useful than upgrading my cache with a .410 flashlight.;)


    Rather than bludgeon the section with another colloquial “Which Can is quietest?”, I hope to increase my understanding of silencers as a whole. I hope to learn how to choose the best moderator for the application, thus being able to find my own best muffler.

    To that end, what do need to know about in general about Suppressors and suppressed shooting?
    (The sticky covers the legal, we can skip it.)

    I’ve been to Silencer Shop, but it isn’t easy for me to tell differences between a few. Maybe I am not using the site right.

    What is the current best technology? I’ve heard about K-cups and baffles being different.
    I know a mono-core is cut out of one piece.

    Would one kind work better over multiple calibers?
    I have a rimfire pistol and several different AR rifles. I know I need two at least. But, is just switching the end cap on the rifles an actually viable choice?


    There isn’t a best mouse trap, but I need some thoughts on how to find one that will work for my house. I can read reviews and dBs numbers, but that won’t tell me what I didn't know I need to.:D

    I want to dive right in, but that’s usually my first mistake. I think I’ll talk about it for awhile this time...:)
     
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  2. pdsmith505

    pdsmith505 Member

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    So, lets get one thing out of the way first that makes sense when you think about it.

    Unless you are limited to only having one can for some reason (you'd have to justify it to yourself, because I certainly can't), plan on getting at least three:

    A rifle can (typically a .30 caliber)
    A pistol can (typically a .45 caliber)
    A rimfire can

    The jack of all trades cans can do it all, but don't do it well. Too big/heavy to be handy on a pistol, too loud on rifles.

    The rifle silencer can cover all your hunting weapons and tactical weapons. You'll pay a price in weight to have something that can handle rapid fire over a dedicated lightweight hunting can. A .30 cal can will do just fine on 5.56 as well. No reason to get a serviceable can, and welded ones are lighter/stronger. Only need to service it if you plan to shoot a lot of cast lead rounds.

    The .45 can does almost as well as a dedicated 9mm can on 9mm, but has the advantage of being able to handle the bigger rounds.

    The rimfire can will be lighter weight and serviceable to deal with leading issues.

    For pistols, radials seem to have taken the crown as the best baffle design over K's now a days. Your rifle can will do best with cone baffles. The rimfire cans are also going away from K baffles for ease of getting them out of the tube.

    That's my current assesment, and I'm sure others will chime in... ECCO machine posts here and is a wealth of knowledge.
     
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  3. Havok7416
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    Havok7416 Member

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  4. MachIVshooter

    MachIVshooter Member

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    Well, monocores suck, so I would say pass on any of them, no matter who built or what is claimed. Integrally suppressed .22 rifles are about the only exception.

    As far as other designs, there is no "magic bullet" in terms of baffle profile. Certain geometry works best in certain appliactions, not as well in others. K baffles can be made to work well, as can radial cones. I personally have had consistently better results with conical baffles across the board, and now employ a mix of smooth & stepped conicals in rifle cans.

    As for choosing what's best for you, let's start with more specificity on the host you're trying to suppress, and where your priorities lie in terms of sound suppression, precision, length, weight & cost. Even though you've said "ARs", that still leaves a lot of variables. What works best for a 20" bull barrel .308 AR meant for precision shooting is less than ideal for a 5.56 SBR
     
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2020
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  5. Demi-human

    Demi-human Member

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    Ah, see? Another kind. :)

    Alright.:)
    Hopefully rimfire will be easy to start with.

    I have a target rifle and a Ruger MKIII pistol. The pistol would just be for quiet fun. The rifle for precision.

    I would rather the (Ugh, I don’t like it but, it’s easier to peck-type than suppressor is every five seconds) Can to be geared for precision on the rifle, but that it could also be used on a pistol. I use the rifle more than the pistol and enjoy that it is finely accurate. It would spend most of its life in the rifle bag. Occasionally it would be put on the MKIII and used for steel fun at closer ranges.

    I think I would place a premium on durability here. I see myself liking it and using it a lot. Which would necessitate often cleaning.

    There are serviceable centerfire Cans. Would these be an option for both the 22 caliber ARs and the rimfire rifle, if I forewent compatibly with the pistol?


    Two more ARs are in 30 and 45 caliber. Realistically the Bushmaster will not be suppressed. Would a 30 caliber can work well enough on the 22calibers? Would one with a changeable end cap work better?

    I would use this the most with the Blackout. It will most likely see coated bullets. I know they keep Cans cleaner, but will it still need to be cleaned periodically? I can nearly guarantee I will not use bare lead.

    Suppressors are just as long lived as firearms, right? In a perfect world I would have many. I probably will, but I would like to get as much use out of the first ones as possible.

    I guess I just don’t want to have made doofus mistakes in the beginning. I don’t want to be unique in these purchases. I don’t want a Datsun when everyone else has a Chevy, not even knowing I bought a Datsun.


    It is irritating having to wait so long for the Government to let me have what I have bought already. Is suppressor technology advancing so quickly that there will be radical new Cans out soon?
    I don’t need new just to have new. But I do like modern technology.

    Sorry for the rambling. Off to go shopping, so I can better answer the questions you’ll have for me about my questions.
     
  6. MachIVshooter

    MachIVshooter Member

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    Yes, rimfire is easy, generally much less specialization there, comes more down to budget & expectations. The TBAC Takedown 22 and Dead Air Mask are two of the best production units out there, assuming you want major label and don't care to go the Form 1 route.

    As for rifle cans, yes, .30 cal cans work well on 5.56 guns, and tend to help with backpressure. As a rule of thumb, figure on the reduction due to overbore condition meaning that you will need about an 8" long .30 can to equal the performance of a 6.5-7" dedicated 5.56 can. That said, using cast or powder coated bullets does mean you're going to want a serviceable can, which are few and far between in the production rifle can world. You may want to consider doing a Form 1 for that.

    No, suppressors aren't like the computer world, designs becoming obsolete every few months. There were some really good cans made many years ago, and there's a lot of mediocre stuff being pumped out today. Most of the advances the last decade have been materials that allow lighter weight and better durability. Many 90s & 00s cans were hulking beasts of 300 series stainless and carbon steels, often weighing 2 pounds or more. Today, 17-4 PH, Inconel, Stellite, and of course titanium have the average rifle can weighing closer to one pound and far tougher.

    This is one of my models, 100% 17-4 H900 stainless, 1.6 x 6.5", full auto & magnum rated, 15 ounces:

    20191214_201840.jpg

    And on top is my 1.6 x 9" Accipiter, also all 17-4, which brings a 22" .300 win mag down to 131 dBA at ear and can take full auto fire as well. Weighs 18.9 ounces. The other can is an AAC 7.62 SDN-6:

    20200123_203136.jpg :
     
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  7. Demi-human

    Demi-human Member

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    Whew! Good.

    This is also good to hear.
    I had some demolition work today and haven’t looked around. But a nice quiet can for the Blackout and an adequate one to use for the rest is appealing and what I will be looking for.

    This means build it myself, right?
    It can’t be as easy an an AR, could it?
     
  8. Havok7416
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    Havok7416 Member

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    If you want a nice Blackout can, I highly recommend MachIV's own designs (he really makes some good stuff). Making your own can is NOT as easy as an AR, but with a lathe and some other stuff it can be done. You do still have to pay the $200 for the tax stamp though.
     
  9. Elkins45

    Elkins45 Member

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    I shoot a TON of lead bullets in my Blackout SBR, and until recently they have all been lubricated cast lead bullets, most gas checked. Only in the last year have I begun experimenting with HTC and powder coated bullets. I have two commercial 30 caliber cans, both user serviceable, both monocore. One is a Thompson Machine Thirty and the other is a Lane Scorpion. The Lane is a bit lighter and sounds about the same as the heavier Thompson. I soak both in 50% ATF and mineral spirits overnight before I take them apart because it makes them easier to break the cores free from the tube. For what I do I wouldn’t even consider a sealed can.

    My commercial 22 can is a Spectre II and I just love it, although I am told the newer Dead Air Mask is the current gold standard for rimfire cans. I also have two Form 1 cans that I made from “solvent trap” tubes and homemade baffles. I bought the commercial 22 can because I wanted to see how much better a highly rated can performed than my homemade one and was delighted to find that I can’t tell them apart by sound. My Form 1 is bigger, so the volume difference makes up for my less sophisticated baffle execution.

    One big advantage with going the Form 1 route is that filing them electronically gets your stamp in your hand much faster than waiting for a Form 4 to come back on a commercial can. The downside is that you have to do some machine work (or at least careful drilling) and engraving.
     
  10. greyling22

    greyling22 Member

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    Elkins, what is 50% atf? I struggle mightily to get my liberty mystic apart. Best I can find so far is dropping it in the ultrasonic cleaner with a 50% purple power and water.

    Demi-human, it can be as easy as building an AR. Form 1 it with a recore. Get a tube and endcaps from machv or diversified machine or some place, file the paperwork, engrave it, drill a small hole in the end, then send it to machv for a recore where he puts a nice professional can in it.
    That's what I did, it works great, and it only took 2 months start to finish. Most of that was waiting in the tube from diversified machine.
     
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  11. pdsmith505

    pdsmith505 Member

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    I think he means Automatic Transmission Fluid. Good stuff.

    I had MachIV recore my old diversified machine based Form 1 30-cal can. That was from back when formed and drilled freeze plugs were the best way to do baffles without a lathe... While I can't say for sure that it's quieter since I couldn't do a side-by-side, it sure seems quieter, and I'm getting better accuracy. Not to mention having a high-quality serviceable, 17-4 heat-treated baffle stack. The price was super reasonable too.

    This thread has me thinking it's time to build out the last stamp I got before the new rules for trusts was finalized... gonna go with one of MachIV's "solvent traps" and immediately have him re-core it as a sealed can since it won't see any cast boolits.[/QUOTE]
     
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  12. Elkins45

    Elkins45 Member

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    Yes, ATF is automatic transmission fluid. It’s one of the best penetrants and general purpose lubricants you can buy. 50/50 ATF and acetone is said to be the best penetrating fluid in existence. I wouldn’t use acetone for a long soak simply because it’s so volatile, but if you used a sealed container it would absolutely be a better choice than mineral spirits.
     
  13. Demi-human

    Demi-human Member

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    Whaaaaaaaaaat?!
    That’s like cheating!
    I’m totally in!:D

    And I can stretch the truth just a little and say I made it!

    Like most things Gun there seems to be a run on even aluminum tubes.:eek:
    But to circumvent the, now even longer, wait even a little is happy news to me.

    I won’t bother MachIVshooter with a message, as I read some of his face book and he seems to be up to his arms in work (jealous emoji), but does he have a website? I am not fluent in FakeBook, nor will be.

    I read his sticky in the section heading. I would love to patronize his business. I would like to see what he offers, but the Form One route sounds neat.
    So that means it would look like what ever tube I get. Not that looks are going to make it quieter...

    If I got endcaps and a tube, would I necessarily need to have baffles and drill them, too?
    Or could I forego the plugs and just have it filled by a professional?
     
  14. greyling22

    greyling22 Member

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    You do not need baffles, but you do need endcaps.
     
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  15. pdsmith505

    pdsmith505 Member

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    Like everything else in the NFA game, the wait time doesn't get shorter the longer you wait to start waiting (if that makes any sense). MachIV is very responsive via PM here and does not have a regular website.
     
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  16. Demi-human

    Demi-human Member

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    Alright. I bought a solvent trap to help me clean my firearms. (Wink, wink.)

    I got a titanium one from Diversified Machine. A known name, not a Google ad aluminum solvent trap for thirty dollars. I got one to fit a rimfire. It was more inexpensive for a first time at "building" one myself. So if I mess it up beyond repair...

    I have a wood lathe. (I know. Not the same.) But it does have a four jaw chuck and concentric tail stock. I planned on this as opposed to my well loved drill press. While the material I'll be drilling is thin, I don't know how perfectly perpendicular I can adjust the press and keep it there through multiple drilling cycles.

    I'll be filling out a form online today. Then I suppose I just wait for stuff to get here, not drilling anything until I smell the ink on the stamp.

    Hmm...
    Is it a stamp? Like a sticky paper stamp? Or like an embossed seal of authority? I hope it looks official and all.
    I've never seen one. Huh.
    Anyway.

    On the engraving part.
    It there a specific way it must be engraved?
    A certain depth? Size of lettering? Is nicely done Vibra-pen acceptable?
    Would a laser cause harm to the metal? I don't have a laser, but I know humans that do.
    Is script acceptable?


    In another vein, would aluminum be acceptable for a rimfire? I would generally go for bomb proof but could a single lightwieght can on a bolt action be durable enough to warrant the effort in the future?
     
  17. pdsmith505

    pdsmith505 Member

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    Well, it's not a metal lathe, but your also not really shaping the metal. Probably better than a drill press. Definitely better than a hand drill and a jig. Use good drill bits and plenty of cutting fluid. Titanium sucks to work on.

    Be prepared for a surprise. You e-filed your Form 1. You'll get a PDF with an image of a stamp. No physical copy. It does not look official, but it is.
    qbFQADvRVR-r7Eph3AuhuOYC19AXBakRh6C5dJR3Jl6aHICcmFpKeKa3BIgXGlP1EdWUKWzH&_nc_ht=scontent.forf1-4.jpg

    https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/27/478.92

    I've done it with a Vibra-pen. Then sent the tube off to a laser engraver because it looked like a third grader did it. Tarheel State Firearms does a great job. Picture below is the .45 can associated with the stamp above... Diversified Machine Ti kit.
    cCOBZzqhJmYFk0DN5u-9uec7Ib7ohO_A8t-AQK1uZre7pdOXnsxN_G6OTQw9skfRiOYGmit5&_nc_ht=scontent.forf1-3.jpg


    Yes, aluminum would work. Ti is more durable though. Plenty of aluminum rimfire cans on the market. Don't use "The Dip" on an aluminum can. Better yet, don't use "The Dip" unless you are prepared to properly dispose of hazmat.
     
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  18. Demi-human

    Demi-human Member

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    Thank you for the link @pdsmith505 .
    A professional job it is. There is a trophy shop in town, hopefully he can do curved surfaces. I do think I’d rather have script than third grader.;)

    No dip for me thanks. Our hazardous waste collector doesn’t want toxic stuff...:confused:
     
    Last edited: May 2, 2020
  19. Elkins45

    Elkins45 Member

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    I’ve engraved all my Form 1 cans by hand but I used a Ptouch label as a guide. I won’t say it looks great but the price was right. It’s not like I’m ever going to resell them anyway so I really don’t care how they look.
     
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  20. Demi-human

    Demi-human Member

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    Good point...
     
  21. Texasgrillchef

    Texasgrillchef member

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    Everyone’s needs for a can are different. I want the queues can possible, to cover multiple weapons in a particular caliber. Therefore I went with...

    I have in NFA jail a Dead Air mask for my Ruger 10/22 SBR
    In jail with it I have:
    Dead Air Odessa-9 As I have a 2 9mm pistols, a P365 and a Barretta 92FS

    Dead Air Ghost-M this one covers my S&W 45 acp, as well as my NON-Fully Auto replica of the 1921 Thompson 45acp SMG.

    A friend of mine has the ghost-m and I tried it on both my guns, and it works very well with both. Tried it on my 9’s and it works “ok” by the the Odessa-9 will work much better.

    I don’t do 30 caliber, nor do I do 223/556, or even 762. I’m a 45-70, 454 Casull when it comes to rifles for hunting etc... to put a suppressor on those rifles is more trouble then it’s worth for me.

    However, if I had a 30 caliber of some sorts, or 223/556, or 762, caliber rifle to put a suppressor on, the I would buy an additional can for that rifle. Unless I got a 45 cal rifle, and then I would see how well my ghost-m would stand up to the new rifle.
     
  22. Demi-human

    Demi-human Member

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    Unfortunately the local trophy shop is only versed in small brass tags, completely incapable of engraving cylindrical items. They package them and ship them.

    :(

    I am well versed in artcraft and will engrave it myself.
    I do a lot of things that way.
     
  23. Demi-human

    Demi-human Member

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    Well, I have the finger print cards and the ink pad. Got them both today in the mail.
    I have the form filled out to print.
    DM is making some things for me but seems to be very busy. Ordered a month ago and no word yet.

    But I am sitting at a resort lake, watching my kids try to fish huge hand fed Pumpkin Seeds that are not hungry. Waiting on a chicken by draining a Bourbon tonic, sitting with my eyes closed in the sun, listening to the water and laughter.

    When we get back I shall mail in the forms and appropriate charge card numbers and be swamped with work until things come back.;)
     
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