THE COMPLETE HISTORY OF THE AR-15 RIFLE

Discussion in 'Rifle Country' started by 45CalPal, Jan 20, 2022.

  1. 45CalPal

    45CalPal Member

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    Ok, I found the article I was refering to earlier today in another post, and as promised Im posting it here. For copyright reasons Im only posting the link as I do not own this article or the site.

    The article is from 2017, which is about the time I started to get interested in the AR platform. I started to research the firearm and as I began it was nothing but posative feelings toward it.
    once I seen the history on it I was sold before I finished reading this.

    https://smallwarsjournal.com/jrnl/art/the-complete-history-of-the-ar-15-rifle
    and this more recent one...
    https://blackrifledepot.com/blog/the-history-of-the-ar-15-in-the-us/

    How the .458 was incorporated into the existing platform.
    https://military-history.fandom.com/wiki/.458_SOCOM
     
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2022
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  2. Wyo82

    Wyo82 Member

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    I find it odd that he has a picture of an air soft M1 Garand instead of the real thing, and it irks me that in the very opening sentence, he refers to the AR as an “assault rifle”. He does address the misconception in the second paragraph, but why open with a line like that. Instantly grinds my gears.
     
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  3. 45CalPal

    45CalPal Member

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    he was just the researcher, i doubt he has an AR 15, and the Ar is commonly refered to as a short hand abreviation for Assault Rifle. When in fact it is not. But that does not stop the uninformed and rookie noobs from assuming this.

    It in fact stands for "ArmaLite Rifle"
     
  4. Wyo82

    Wyo82 Member

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    . Exactly!!! Not trying to **** on your post, just this guys writing. As a “researcher”, he should have been educated before he attempted to write.
     
  5. 45CalPal

    45CalPal Member

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    No offense at all, I always prefer open honest feedback on anything I post.

    Yep, just like the prosecutor of the recent KR trial.
    Pointing it at the jury and calling it the same "assault rifle" that every other person does that has not got the proper knowledge.

    But his facts are on point!
     
  6. entropy

    entropy Member

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    The Author is an avionics electronic engineer, and not qualified to write about the AR-15/M16. If I wanted an article about The F-111 Raven, he'd be my go to guy. But him writing about the AR is like Eugene Stoner writing about AEW/ECM systems. No, actually I'd bet Stoner knew more about that than Bocetta knows about the AR system. His article shows some anti-gun bias that I'd wager is from his working in Canada. I'd say it was lifted from Wikipedia's page on the AR/M-16, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M16_rifle ,but Wikipedia's is much more comprehensive, correct, and complete than this fluff.
    Now if Mark Humphreville wrote an article or book about his involvement in the development of the M16A2, that I'd read. I spent several hours on the phone with him, trading stories about the M16A1 and M16A2, and learned a lot that isn't commonly known about both rifles.
     
  7. MistWolf

    MistWolf Member

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    All three articles had factual errors and were painful to read. There are other more credible sources about the AR and its development. Get the books THE BLACK RIFLE and BLACK RIFLE II to start.
     
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  8. edwardware

    edwardware Member

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    The first two sentences are factually incorrect, and the errors are trivially refutable. The next two paragraphs are grossly erroneous vis-a-vis history and technical detail. At least I don't see any grammatical errors.

    The author who would write that under guise of 'research' should be avoided. He might have a bright future in journalism thought!

    I disagree that one must be professionally certified in a subject to be qualified to write authoritatively about the subject. I wouldn't want that author working on my avionics because he doesn't care about attention to detail.
     
  9. earlthegoat2

    earlthegoat2 Member

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    Larry Vickers’ AR 15 books are probably the pinnacle of AR history and knowledge
     
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  10. 12Bravo20

    12Bravo20 Member

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    If he goes by Cold Blue on ARFCOM, then yes you are correct, that man is a wealth of knowledge.

    I always get a kick out of the timelines on the A2, or any new weapons. They might get adopted on a certain date, but that does not mean everyone gets issued one right away. A lot of Reserve and National Guard units still had the A1 into the 90's. Quite a few active duty training units still used the A1 up until 1990-1991. In fact I didn't get the A2 issued to me until I got to Germany in Jan 92. And We still had the 1911's and M3A1 SMG until late 92/early 93.

    The M4 carbine started getting issued to SOCOM, Rangers, 82nd Airborne, and 101st Airborne in 1994. Other forward deployed or rapid deployment divisions didn't start getting them until 1995. My last duty station was the National Training Center-Ft Irwin and I was supposed to get issued a M4 in 95 but I still hadn't gotten one when I left in 96. The first few M4's issued with the A2 upper receiver were actually XM4 Carbines and most of those went to SOCOM.
     
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  11. Slamfire

    Slamfire Member

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    There are many books about the failure of the M16 procurement, and how Colt Industries took control of the Army Ordnance Bureau and managed to replace the M14 with their rifle. The AR15 was underdeveloped and due to the immature design, many good American boys died with jammed M16’s in their hands. Both Colt and the Army covered up combat failures, combat deaths, and this was of course, scandalous. This book covers that period, it is far too expensive to buy now, but you can get them through interlibrary loan to read. Have to give it back though!

    The Black Rifle: M16 Retrospective (Modern US Military Small Arms Series- Volume Three

    https://www.amazon.com/Black-Rifle-Retrospective-Modern-Military/dp/0889351155/ref=sr_1_2?crid=37YKNLRWEO0RI&keywords=black+rifle&qid=1642776279&s=books&sprefix=black+rifle%2Cstripbooks%2C291&sr=1-2

    basically, given enough money, and enough dead GI’s the AR15/M16 design errors were eliminated or muted as much as possible. The basic limitations of the design were never totally eliminated, magazines have always been a source of unreliability.

    Before we get too uppity, nothing has changed in the relationship of Government and Industry. This book clearly shows how Boeing captured the FAA and similar to the AR15, designed a plane on a shoe string budget. The 737 AMAX is an unstable aircraft, and there are things under the skin, that were not addressed, that will cause future crashes. I recommend reading this.

    Flying Blind: The 737 MAX Tragedy and the Fall of Boeing

    https://www.amazon.com/Flying-Blind-Tragedy-Fall-Boeing/dp/0385546491/ref=asc_df_0385546491/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=475772574912&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=5149422187013802351&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9012720&hvtargid=pla-1187279493993&psc=1
     
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  12. entropy

    entropy Member

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    He goes by Hummer70 here.

    The distribution of A2's was spread out over time because only one company was making them (FN), unlike the M16 and A1, where several were, (Colt, General Dynamics, and H&R) and we weren't in the beginning of a war that was planned to expand beyond what it was when the rifle was issued. (Think McNamara owned Colt or GM stock?)
    The two Airborne divisions got them first, along with SOCOM, then the RDF, of which my division, the 7th, was one of the two of. (The other was the 10th.) Our infantry got them just before I arrived at Ft. Ord (Apr '86), although support units like mine didn't get them until later; after I left in '89. It took a long time, as you know, to get A2's out to everyone that was getting them. By then the M4 was out, and change #10,001-the M16A2's were mostly supplanted by M4's.

    We were stuck 'in the hole' as far as 'shortys' go, as the XM177E2 had been withdrawn, and the M4 was still in testing. Our LRSD wanted CAR-15 like carbines, so they bought some 'civilian' 10" barrels, and mounted them on their A2's. This caused reliability problems because they had cut rifle gas tubes down to fit, overgassing them. Working with the Maint. Activity and the LRSD Armorer, we found that by 'pigtailing' the full length rifle gas tube to fit under the short handguards, we'd have a reliable "recon" carbine. Of course, now purpose-made pistol gas tubes are available, with ID's matched to gas the action correctly. (though in my personal experience, the 7-8" pistols are still overgassed.) I also heard of, though never saw, a shim kit to make the A2's 3 rd. burst 'disappear'. I knew a lot of 'Light Fighters' that would have loved to have that!

    My comment had noting to do with professional certification. But his bioline at the bottom listed nothing about his connection with the AR, not even whether he'd ever seen or fired one. At least the "The AR traumatized me" 'journalist' had at least done that. ;)
     
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2022
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  13. someguy2800

    someguy2800 Member

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    The story from the man himself. Very interesting series of video's.

     
  14. 12Bravo20

    12Bravo20 Member

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    Until I was stationed at NTC/Ft Irwin, I was always assigned to Engineer Battalions whether as an engineer or as a machinist. Things were messed up when I got to Germany in Jan 92. My unit was transitioning from 293rd Eng Bn - Construction, 18th Eng Brigade to 40th Eng Bn Combat. And on top of that we were also switching over from 8th ID to 1st AD at the same time. Engineer units are always behind infantry and armor units when it comes to getting updated equipment. Which never made sense since we had to support both.

    During Basic training, two AIT's (12B and 51B), and being permanent party at Ft Leonardwood, we were still using the A1 in 1990. I was stationed for a short period at Ft Devens after Desert Storm, but I don't remember if we had A1s or A2s in the arms room, I was permanent party in a training unit there.

    On a side note. As a machinist and being stationed in Germany, I did a bit of 3rd shop and depot level maintenance on weapons. It was easier and faster for the unit armorers to send stuff across base to me versus having to send stuff to a state side depot.
     
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  15. BigBlue 94

    BigBlue 94 Member

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    That military-history fandom site is literally a direct copy of the main wikipedia site, for every entry. Not a reliable, nor unreliable source since it is peer edited... Just ask Burger King about their Whopper entry.
     
  16. someguy2800

    someguy2800 Member

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    Adding this to the part 1 video above. This video gives Stoner's perspective on what happened to the early M16's in Vietnam. He blames the problems entirely on the military procurement chains incompetence for procuring ammo without doing any research or due diligence or testing on port pressures, and the army itself for failing to develop any training or cleaning procedures. He is of course biased because it his baby, but I would have to agree with him as its since been proven to be very reliable when the ammunition is actually produced with some knowledge of what port pressure is and anti corrosion steps taken as originally designed.

     
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  17. tark

    tark Member

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    You got that right! If this guy is a researcher, he isn't very good at it. Anyone notice his "1989" date for " production of the first AR-15s for civilian use?" Excuse me! Colt first offered semi-auto civilian versions of the gun in 1963. I saw an AR-15 for sale in a gun store in Davenport, Iowa in 1965! They wanted $200 for it, which I thought to be outrageous. And it was made by Colt.
     
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  18. someguy2800

    someguy2800 Member

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    I've seen democratic press conferences with more accurate information.
     
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  19. lysanderxiii

    lysanderxiii Member

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    The M16A2 was initially produced only by Colt from 1983 until around 1988, when FN got a second source contract. The ones issued in USAEUR were all Colt manufacture.

    As to M16A1 production, Hydra-matic (GM) and Harrington & Richardson didn't get contracts until 1968, after the Government acquired licensing rights to the data package. Deliveries started in late 1969 and the contracts completed sometime in 1971-72. (General Dynamics never made M16s for the military.)
     
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  20. lysanderxiii

    lysanderxiii Member

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    In USAEUR, the Army switched the A1 for the A2 (as well as fielding the M249 to the infantry) fairly rapidly to ease possible ammunition supply issues (as that was where "WW3" was expected to start). By 1988, all units in 3AD had transitioned to the M16A2. I never saw an A1 in the hands on any Army troops in all of V Corps in 1989. The attached USAF personnel still had XM177E2, which was a problem.
     
  21. 12Bravo20

    12Bravo20 Member

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    My battalion was transitioning from a separate Engineer brigade (construction) to a Divisional Combat Engineer Bn. We were assigned to 8th Infantry Division which was also in the process of reflagging to 1st Armored Division at the time. I arrived in Baumholder in Jan 1992 and yes we had the A2 rifles at the time. But a lot of the other assigned weapons were not up to date compared to the infantry and armor units we supported. The 40th Eng Bn kept the 1911A1 pistols and M3A1 SMGs until late 92/early 93. We even had older Recoilless Rifles assigned to us. We also did not get any M249s until late 93/early 94

    The first M16A2 I was ever assigned was when I got to Baumholder in Jan 1992. Before that I was either assigned to training units or Reserve units which were still using the A1 rifles. I even saw at least 1 NG unit deploy to Saudi with M14 rifles.

    And what you saw the Air Force guys carrying were the GAU-5/A or GAU-5A/A. While similar to the XM177E2, they were not the same carbines. The AF always did their own thing with rifles and carbines, one would see a lot of mix matched uppers and lowers.
     
  22. d2wing

    d2wing Member

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    Both articles are ridiculous. When I was stationed in Germany we had M-14's. I had M-16 training twice before I went to Nam.
     
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  23. 351 WINCHESTER

    351 WINCHESTER Member

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    I was in our lgs one day and a guy there knew Stoner & showed us pictures that he took at Stoner's residence of all the protypes and variations of the AR-15 that he was allowed to take from Colt as they owed him 1/4 of a million $$ and could not pay. Colt told him to take whatever he wanted from their basement and he did. God only knows what he took for payment.
     
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  24. someguy2800

    someguy2800 Member

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    Interesting
     
  25. Ignition Override

    Ignition Override Member

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    Does that book include some of the bits about the CAR/AR-15's creation, mentioned in "The Gun", by CJ Chivers?

    Author Chivers was a USMC Infantry captain (plus Army Ranger School, Gulf War etc) who became a Pulitzer-prize winning author.

    tark: True.
    My Dad told me that a buddy in Jackson MS let him shoot a personal AR around 1964 or 1965, not long before we moved to the Kansas City area.
     
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2022
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