Claiming your comstock score is higher when shooting a open gun against a revolver is extremely disingenuous. I mean really if all that matters for you is a SA trigger why do you need a compensator to help with recoil mitigation.
The concept of 380 vs more powerful rounds
- Thread starter kokapelli
- Start date
- Status
fastbolt
Member
Yep, I learned that many years ago, as well.
It's just that nowadays I no longer have to dress around a medium or full-size plainclothes or off-duty weapon, unless I feel like doing so.
One of the reasons I got back into J-frames was so I could remain armed in environments presenting lesser overt & immediate threats. The J's allowed me to remain armed with a weapon I could effectively use. I pocket-carried one or another of them while traveling to attend meetings, as well as seminars & conferences as both attendee and trainer. I could dress according to my planned activities or simple preferences without having to take a belt gun into consideration.
I have a fair selection of subcompact, compact & full-size pistols, and a similar range of revolvers, from which to choose. I could carry a different handgun (with which I've trained & qualified) everyday, and not carry the same one twice in more than a month.
So, if I feel like relaxing at the cigar club with the guys, or strolling along one of the Coastal towns where I live, wearing only shorts and a thin T-shirt, or traveling out-of-state for personal or family enjoyment, etc, etc ... I can remain armed (at my discretion) even more easily than when carrying a J-frame.
Options.
Doesn't mean my full-size 1911's, M&P 45, SW9940 or other larger handguns will become unused.
I'd like to point out that for the most part, none of this trigger discussion has anything to do with .380 vs 9 or bigger. Personally, if you take two similar pistols, the first of which was designed for .380 ACP and the second slightly scaled up for 9mm, you won't notice much difference. The LC9 is a different animal from LCP, but if you compare the Sig 238 and Sig 938, you'll notice that the size is real close and they don't seem to feel that different when shooting, but the 938 hits a lot harder; either wider or deeper depending on what you load into the .380.
so you are carrying a gun which you haven't mastered trigger control and giving up speed and accuracy in hopes that the slight increase in power will make up for it.
Okay... I never said open gun. And considering this message from our moderator I'm going to leave it at that.
Redlg155
Member
In the end it all boils down to personal preference.
Fit and feel is subjective to the individual user. Sometimes 1/16" of an inch can make the difference between comfortably concealed and uncomfortable "printing". A Sig P238 is ok in my pocket, move up to PM9 and things are a "no-go". What really matters is that you are armed and trained in the effective use of your chosen weapon.
Fit and feel is subjective to the individual user. Sometimes 1/16" of an inch can make the difference between comfortably concealed and uncomfortable "printing". A Sig P238 is ok in my pocket, move up to PM9 and things are a "no-go". What really matters is that you are armed and trained in the effective use of your chosen weapon.
RBid
Member
There are sacrifices to be made with the selection of any round. .380 is more controllable than 9mm is more controllable than .45, .45 makes a bigger hole than .40 makes a bigger hole than 9mm, etc. The decision of which sacrifices to make is a deeply personal one.
If somebody knows and accepts the compromises that come with carrying or using .380, I respect their right to do so. To pretend that these compromises don't exist-- with any round, would just be silly.
I choose to carry 9mm, in a compact (NOT subcompact) platform, with which I can quickly and accurately put shots on target, and which I can control reasonably with one hand. I have come to the conclusion that I can easily and comfortably conceal and carry up to the size of a Glock 19, so within that size range, I prefer to stay closer to the large end. I gain nothing, and lose a lot, by going smaller.
My worry is that people will make unnecessary compromises, and find themselves in situations in which they need to use their CCW. When I say'unnecessary', that is not a veiled slight at the .380. It's a reference to prioritizing 'small' to the point where the ability to quickly and accurately put shots on target becomes retarded by the package. An example: carrying an LCP, without experimenting with platforms or carry methods that may enable the user to carry a more capable firearm. The LCP is a GREAT choice, if and only if it is the most gun you can carry. Move-draw-shoot with an LCP (or similar) is not as easy as it is with larger platforms.
If somebody knows and accepts the compromises that come with carrying or using .380, I respect their right to do so. To pretend that these compromises don't exist-- with any round, would just be silly.
I choose to carry 9mm, in a compact (NOT subcompact) platform, with which I can quickly and accurately put shots on target, and which I can control reasonably with one hand. I have come to the conclusion that I can easily and comfortably conceal and carry up to the size of a Glock 19, so within that size range, I prefer to stay closer to the large end. I gain nothing, and lose a lot, by going smaller.
My worry is that people will make unnecessary compromises, and find themselves in situations in which they need to use their CCW. When I say'unnecessary', that is not a veiled slight at the .380. It's a reference to prioritizing 'small' to the point where the ability to quickly and accurately put shots on target becomes retarded by the package. An example: carrying an LCP, without experimenting with platforms or carry methods that may enable the user to carry a more capable firearm. The LCP is a GREAT choice, if and only if it is the most gun you can carry. Move-draw-shoot with an LCP (or similar) is not as easy as it is with larger platforms.
lobo9er
Member
380 threads never go any where.
The rest of us lucky enough to get carry permits I might add unfortunately.
I agree but ARMY and FBI dont have to worry about concealment like the rest of us.
The rest of us lucky enough to get carry permits I might add unfortunately.
No dog in this hunt, but IIRC, a .380 is the same diameter as a 9mm, but slightly shorter in length (2mm?). I may be wrong, but the diameter has more to do with the exit wound than the length, no?
Many of my friends in law enforcement do not like the 9mm caliber - they say the rounds are too hot and will pass through perps and walls. For home defense, they tell me it's not a good choice since risk of collateral damage is high.
Looking at the graphs comparing the .380 to the 9mm indicates this to be directionally correct - the expansion on both is similar, but the 9mm has almost double the penetration.
Again, no dog in this hunt, but based on the anecdotal info from my friends, and the data on the comparison, the .380 would seem to be effective - especially for home defense. In a situation where it's close range, I can't imagine the efficacy is that much different (as noted by another poster that said the .380 was effective 84% of the time, the 9mm 85-86% of the time). FWIW
Many of my friends in law enforcement do not like the 9mm caliber - they say the rounds are too hot and will pass through perps and walls. For home defense, they tell me it's not a good choice since risk of collateral damage is high.
Looking at the graphs comparing the .380 to the 9mm indicates this to be directionally correct - the expansion on both is similar, but the 9mm has almost double the penetration.
Again, no dog in this hunt, but based on the anecdotal info from my friends, and the data on the comparison, the .380 would seem to be effective - especially for home defense. In a situation where it's close range, I can't imagine the efficacy is that much different (as noted by another poster that said the .380 was effective 84% of the time, the 9mm 85-86% of the time). FWIW
Madcap_Magician
Member
I don't think the .380 ACP is INEFFECTIVE, just that it's LESS EFFECTIVE than most of the other common self-defense cartridges, most of which are made in guns just as small as a .380 if you want the concealment, or only slightly larger.
Since the tiny .380s have some sharp recoil and muzzle jump, I think I'd rather just have the 9mm.
Since the tiny .380s have some sharp recoil and muzzle jump, I think I'd rather just have the 9mm.
Comparing 9 to .40 to .45 you also have a difference of capacity. .380 to 9 in a similar platform should be the same.
Concealing a 9 that is similar to a .380 isn't any harder. I've used the Sig example before, but a DB380 and DB9 are also pretty close in size.
Concealing a 9 that is similar to a .380 isn't any harder. I've used the Sig example before, but a DB380 and DB9 are also pretty close in size.
Why not just go to the .40S&W, if the argument for 9mm is that it is not much bigger than .380? Most .40S&W are the same size as 9mm, yet it is more powerful than the 9.
When compare the 9mm with larger calibers, I hear arguments like shot placement is what counts, it has enough power against humans, BG will be just as dead, dead is dead, BG can not tell the difference if you do your part, etc.
Sounds like the same argument should be equally valid for the .380ACP to me.
When compare the 9mm with larger calibers, I hear arguments like shot placement is what counts, it has enough power against humans, BG will be just as dead, dead is dead, BG can not tell the difference if you do your part, etc.
Sounds like the same argument should be equally valid for the .380ACP to me.
CommanderCrusty
Member
Stopping Power--It's All About Perception
Nobody in their right mind wants to be shot--not with a .22, not with a .380 and not with a .44 magnum.
No criminal really believes they will ever be shot, so no matter what you shoot them with, you'll probably have to shoot them twice: Once to show you mean it; Once more to actually stop their attack.
The only time you need a real Man Stopper is when someone in particular really REALLY wants to kill YOU! Those people must be physically stopped, not stopped by seeing the gun, seeing the muzzle flash or hearing a big boom. If you come up against one of THEM? Well, then what you really need is a rifle or shotgun.
IMHO you should carry whatever you feel comfortable carrying. If you try something too big, don't stop carrying a weapon, just switch to something a bit smaller.
Nobody in their right mind wants to be shot--not with a .22, not with a .380 and not with a .44 magnum.
No criminal really believes they will ever be shot, so no matter what you shoot them with, you'll probably have to shoot them twice: Once to show you mean it; Once more to actually stop their attack.
The only time you need a real Man Stopper is when someone in particular really REALLY wants to kill YOU! Those people must be physically stopped, not stopped by seeing the gun, seeing the muzzle flash or hearing a big boom. If you come up against one of THEM? Well, then what you really need is a rifle or shotgun.
IMHO you should carry whatever you feel comfortable carrying. If you try something too big, don't stop carrying a weapon, just switch to something a bit smaller.
beatledog7
Member
^^This (Post 116) is a reality assessment if I've ever seen one.
People like to keep their blood on the inside, and all bullets make blood go outside. Presenting a gun stops all but the truly determined (the drugged fall into the determined category), and for them the answer is either a CNS hit or many holes. The cartridge/firearm that best assures the user of accuracy and has sufficient capacity to achieve many holes in the attacker is therefore the best cartridge for that user.
There's nothing shameful about successfully stopping an attacker with a .380, nor is there anything brag-worthy about stopping an attacker with a .44 Magnum. The decision to shoot an attacker when no other option remained is enough to prove the shooter is a real man or real woman.
People like to keep their blood on the inside, and all bullets make blood go outside. Presenting a gun stops all but the truly determined (the drugged fall into the determined category), and for them the answer is either a CNS hit or many holes. The cartridge/firearm that best assures the user of accuracy and has sufficient capacity to achieve many holes in the attacker is therefore the best cartridge for that user.
There's nothing shameful about successfully stopping an attacker with a .380, nor is there anything brag-worthy about stopping an attacker with a .44 Magnum. The decision to shoot an attacker when no other option remained is enough to prove the shooter is a real man or real woman.
Last edited:
David E
Member
- Joined
- Aug 3, 2008
- Messages
- 7,459
Except we cannot know if they are in their "right mind" when they threaten our lives.
This made me chuckle until unrealized you were serious. If I need to shoot someone, it's not to show I "mean it," but to defend my life against an immediate deadly threat. This means my first and every shot I fire will be with the goal of stopping the badguy from doing/completing the act I'm shooting him for.
Which is any person trying to kill me!
Except I can't carry a shotgun with me all the time.
Any gun with you is better than any gun not, but that does not mean all guns or calibers are equally effective. The smaller you go in caliber, the more precise your shots need to be. Center mass is a good area to hit with a 9mm/.40/.45, while a .380/.32/.25 would be more effective in the face and neck area.
Agreed.
The difference here is that the 9 and .40 are very similiar in terminal ballistics. In order to get similar penetration out of a .380 you have to go FMJ, which means a much bigger reduction in PWC size from 9 to .380 (probably 0.3") than from .40 to 9 (somewhere in the 0.06-0.07" range). You also have other disadvantages. The 9 only gives up a small bit of frame size and some recoil to the .380. In terms of cost/benefit for all these factors, going from .380 to 9 gives you a much bigger jump than going 9 to .40.
Good assessment, David. That basically is what I was going to say, but better written.
Godsgunman
Member
Here's my reasoning for not being a .380 fan. Plain and simple I find the .380 round to be horribly overpriced for what I get. I can get better everything with 9mm luger for a cheaper price. Also I don't need a tiny no sight pocket gun with unpleasant recoil and very little capacity when I have a smallish, comfortable, easy to carry, extremely accurate, double stack 9mm firearm I carry each and everday. I did once own a S&W Bodyguard .380 when I also fell into the "pocket craze". I gave it a try but just not for me. Its really the price and lack of performance for that price that turns me off.
Esoxchaser
Member
My wife can rapid fire 95 out of a hundred rounds out of her P238 into an 8" target at 12 yards. Same percentage into a 6" target at 7 yards. Her percentage of hits drops off dramatically with our EMP 9mm or P938. So guess what we figure she is best off carrying?
JR47
Member
I love it when the fact that something like a quarter inch difference in expanded diameter is considered important. Like that's going to be the difference between your winning or losing. Please.
No bullet in an easily concealed handgun is going to make a huge difference in expansion over their base diameter.
Those 9mm figures are normally from a 4", or greater, barrel. From a 3", or less, barrel, they drop, often dramatically.
It's like saying that, because you could buy a Barracuda in 1969 with a Hemi, that all Barracudas were that fast.
I've seen people absorb a chest-full of 9x19 +P+ rounds, and still have to be restrained, That person lived to stand trial. I also saw a man 6' 2" and 240 pounds killed by a single .22 long rifle bullet from a little RG14 revolver. He was shot in the back as he turned to grab his baseball bat, by his petite wife.
Again, each person has a set of circumstances that they live with. Some will be physically challenged, others live where laws vary all over the map. YOU have to determine what is "enough", not somebody who has an entirely different set of circumstances.
Nobody, no matter how smart they think they are, can be prepared for every emergency requiring a gun. You prepare for what your life-style requires.
No bullet in an easily concealed handgun is going to make a huge difference in expansion over their base diameter.
Those 9mm figures are normally from a 4", or greater, barrel. From a 3", or less, barrel, they drop, often dramatically.
It's like saying that, because you could buy a Barracuda in 1969 with a Hemi, that all Barracudas were that fast.
I've seen people absorb a chest-full of 9x19 +P+ rounds, and still have to be restrained, That person lived to stand trial. I also saw a man 6' 2" and 240 pounds killed by a single .22 long rifle bullet from a little RG14 revolver. He was shot in the back as he turned to grab his baseball bat, by his petite wife.
Again, each person has a set of circumstances that they live with. Some will be physically challenged, others live where laws vary all over the map. YOU have to determine what is "enough", not somebody who has an entirely different set of circumstances.
Nobody, no matter how smart they think they are, can be prepared for every emergency requiring a gun. You prepare for what your life-style requires.
The underlying question is "How much power do I need in my SD handgun?".
The answer is "Enough".
The Kicker: There is no penalty for having more than needed. The penalties for having less than needed can be harsh, up to and including death.
Each of us gets to make that decision, all the time.
Mindset-Skillset-Toolset: Mindset requires confidence in your weapon and ammunition choice (and a host of other things!); Skillset requires that you can operate that weapon at a satisfactory level; Toolset will be determined by Mindset and Skillset. Carry the most powerful, highest capacity weapon you can that satisfies Mindset and Skillset. If that's a .380, fine with me. My mindset won't allow it for myself, but that's my decision.
The answer is "Enough".
The Kicker: There is no penalty for having more than needed. The penalties for having less than needed can be harsh, up to and including death.
Each of us gets to make that decision, all the time.
Mindset-Skillset-Toolset: Mindset requires confidence in your weapon and ammunition choice (and a host of other things!); Skillset requires that you can operate that weapon at a satisfactory level; Toolset will be determined by Mindset and Skillset. Carry the most powerful, highest capacity weapon you can that satisfies Mindset and Skillset. If that's a .380, fine with me. My mindset won't allow it for myself, but that's my decision.
Last edited:
- Status
Similar threads
