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The DOD Surplus Brass Controversy - Fact v. Rumor

Discussion in 'Legal' started by Jeff White, Mar 16, 2009.

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  1. Jeff White

    Jeff White Moderator Staff Member

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    This is the email that started it all:

    This is what DOD manual says about Demil Code B:
    http://www.dlis.dla.mil/demil/demil_codes.asp
    Basically if it's not for export, it's good to go.

    Here is a link to a current auction of: LOT (3719)LBS APPROXIMATELY EXPENDED BRASS TO INCLUDE: 1958 LBS - 5. 56MM, 1007 LBS - 7. 65MM - WITH TWO BOXES BEING FIRED BLANKS (90 LBS), 709 LBS - 9MM, 45 LBS - SHOT GUN SHELLS, 3 PLTS, MUTILATION NOT REQUIRED.

    http://cgi.govliquidation.com/auction/view?id=2247011&convertTo=USD

    I hope this ends all the controversy.
     
  2. NavyLCDR

    NavyLCDR member

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    Good luck with that one!
     
  3. MaterDei

    MaterDei Member

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    That's good news, thanks Jeff. The last thing we need right now is a further restriction of supply.
     
  4. Ben Shepherd

    Ben Shepherd Member

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    Is it possible to point all the threads about it to this and lock them down? That would help quite a bit.
     
  5. Old Fuff

    Old Fuff Member

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    Jim Shepard addressed this situation this morning in the March 16th issue of "The Shooting wire."

    His source of information was Georgia Arms, which is a well known, and highly respected maker of remanufactured ammunition. He also had received a similar (but not identical) e-mail notification. This is what Jim said:

    The first word of this latest decision came over the weekend when Georgia Arms' Larry Haynie released a letter notifying him of the new requirement.

    For a company with an order in for 30,000 pounds of expended military brass in .223, .308 and .50 BMG, that was not a pleasant notification.

    The e-mail said:

    "Effective immediately DOD Surplus, LLC, will be implementing new requirements for mutilation of fired shell casings. The new DRMS requirement calls for DOD Surplus personnel to witness the mutilation of the property and sign the Certificate of Destruction. Mutilation of the property can be done at the DRMO, if permitted by the Government, or it may be mutilated at a site chosen by the buyer. Mutilation means that the property will be destroyed to the extent prevents its reuse or reconstruction. DOD Surplus personnel will determine when property has been sufficiently mutilated to meet the requirements of the Government. "

    Georgia Arms was remanufacturing more than one million rounds of .223 ammunition monthly; selling that ammo on the civilian market to resellers and to government agencies all over the country.

    Tomorrow, Georgia Arms will start sending cancellation notices for .223 ammunition to law enforcement agencies across the United States. Haynie says he may have to layoff half of his sixty-person workforce.
    A new welcome page posted on Georgia Arms' website (www.georgia-arms.com) says simply "Due to new government regulations concerning the purchase of surplus brass, we are removing sales of all 223 and all 308 until further notice."

    I would note that while both e-mail messages came from different sources, both are official notices, and both call for "mutilation" of fired ammunition cases before sale.

    I am not ready to believe that the e-mails don't mean exactly what they say until a reliable source, such as the NRA says so.
     
  6. ACBMWM3

    ACBMWM3 member

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    Last edited: Mar 16, 2009
  7. Old Fuff

    Old Fuff Member

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    Which site is that? I just rechecked Grorgia Arms (www, georgia-arms.com) and the notice is still posted.
     
  8. Jeff White

    Jeff White Moderator Staff Member

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    DOD isn't a reliable source? This link takes you to an auction for once fired brass that is currently running and it doesn't require mutilation. http://cgi.govliquidation.com/auction/view?id=2247011&convertTo=USD It can't get any clearer then that. DOD wrote the regulations and DOD is selling the brass. I think we can take them at their word on the official DOD website that they are selling brass and it isn't required to be mutilated.

    The NRA has nothing to do with this.

    My guess and it's just that, a guess is that DOD Surplus sold some of that brass overseas without the proper state department permits and now they have to destroy it all. That is just a guess. But it's quite clear that DOD is selling brass and not requiring it to be demilled. I should add that DOD Surplus LLC is a private company and not the actual Department of Defense.
     
  9. BHP FAN

    BHP FAN Member

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    That may be because it's already been smacked with a hammer by some unhappy recruit on punishment detail.
     
  10. Jeff White

    Jeff White Moderator Staff Member

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    Get real. Have you ever turned in brass and other residue to the ASP and then followed it through to DRMO? There isn't time for a recruit on punishment detail to pound it flat with a hammer.

    I swear some of you guys wouldn't believe the sun rises in the East if you were standing there at dawn with a compass in your hand, and some conspiracy theorist told you it really was rising in the West :rolleyes:
     
  11. ACBMWM3

    ACBMWM3 member

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    I think this ones done.... We have all figured out that it doesn't have to be turned into scrap and these letters that got sent out are not totally clear on what they say.
     
  12. Master Blaster

    Master Blaster Member

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    So Georgia Arms is lying in order to destroy their own business???

    Or the DOD is requiring destruction as they have claimed?

    Which is more likely?
     
  13. Jeff White

    Jeff White Moderator Staff Member

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    I'm not going to speculate on their motives.

    No they are not.

    What part of MUTILATION NOT REQUIRED is so hard to understand?

    http://cgi.govliquidation.com/auction/view?id=2247011&convertTo=USD
    This link is from the official DOD Website TODAY MARCH 16, 2009 It is current information.

    Here is another auction:

    http://cgi.govliquidation.com/auction/view?id=2263402&convertTo=USD

    And another:
    http://cgi.govliquidation.com/auction/view?id=2263403&convertTo=USD

    And another:
    http://cgi.govliquidation.com/auction/view?id=2235021&convertTo=USD

    Bidding doesn't close on these auctions until April 3, 2009. It would seem that any qualified buy could bid on those lots. DOD is not requiring destruction of the brass. It says so right there on the DRMO website.
     
  14. Lone_Gunman

    Lone_Gunman Member

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    What does "Trade Security Controls required at disposition" mean? It is from the definition of Demil code B.

    It looks to me like governmentliquidation.com is a private business, not part of the DOD:

    "Government Liquidation, LLC (GL), a Liquidity Services, Inc. marketplace is the exclusive contractor of the Defense Reutilization and Marketing Service (DRMS) for the sale of surplus and scrap assets of the United States Department of Defense (DOD). "

    If it is a private contractor, and a corporation, how is it part of the DOD?

    Also, that does not look like the DOD website.
     
  15. Shootist1

    Shootist1 Member

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  16. Waitone

    Waitone Member

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    Tom Gresham's GunTalk goes into some detail
    http://guntalk.libsyn.com/
    15-Mar-09 Show
    Part II
    Starts about 10 minutes into the segment
     
  17. Old Fuff

    Old Fuff Member

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    "DOD isn't a reliable source?"

    Sure it is.... That's part of what has me worried, because both e-mail messages seem to call for mutilation of fired brass. If that wasn't the intent I see no reasons for the messages at all. I would think if this only applied to sales made to buyers in foreign countries - or for material being resold to foreign buyers, that point would have been made clear.

    I also believe that auctions are still ongoing, but it may be a case of new instruction still in progress. I will feel much better if they're still going on next week.

    The point I'm trying to get across is I'm not going to rush to judgment - one way or the other.

    Last but not least, I think the NRA has enough contacts within the DOD to get to the bottom of what's going on.
     
  18. Shootist1

    Shootist1 Member

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    Here's further corroboration as posted by the JPFO...

    http://www.jpfo.org/alerts03/alert20090313.htm

    This apparently, for whatever reason, was forced last week. Larry Haynie said in the interview he has competitors who had received shipments of expended cartridges, and DOD called them and told them the delivered brass would have to be returned or rendered into scrap, and DOD representatives would have to witness the destruction.

    Gordon Hutchinson
     
  19. MountainBear

    MountainBear Member

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    Some people just aren't happy unless its all a big conspiracy. There the same people who think that area 51 aliens are real and the lunar landing was fake.
     
  20. Lone_Gunman

    Lone_Gunman Member

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    What I know for sure is that, right now, you cannot buy brass from Jeff Bartlett of GIbrass.com, nor can you buy reloaded 308 and 223 ammo from Georgia Arms.

    Both of these companies are losing sales right now, and I can't buy ammo. Whether or not Bigfoot is involved is hard to say.
     
  21. Waitone

    Waitone Member

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    Shootist1,

    Was that you on Gresham's Gun Talk Radio 15-Mar-09?
     
  22. Jeff White

    Jeff White Moderator Staff Member

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    What part of Demil Code B does not require destruction is so hard to understand?
    http://www.dlis.dla.mil/demil/demil_codes.asp
    That is from the official DOD website. It can't be any clearer. If the original email actually said DEMIL Code B, it specifically says it doesn't have to be destroyed. What could be clearer? Click on the link and look for yourself.
     
  23. rbernie
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    rbernie Member

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    I suspect that GA Arms is being told by their supplier (DOD Surplus) that the supplier cannot furnish the contracted items. Whether GA Arms is misunderstanding the communications or the supplier is deliberately confusing the situation to cover their own fanny is pure speculation.

    But clearly, used brass is still being sold by the US Government (via their property disposal agent, Government Liquidation) to anyone that can legally bid on it.

    Because the DoD hired them under contract to handle the propery disposal for suplus and scrap assets?
     
  24. Lone_Gunman

    Lone_Gunman Member

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    Ok, so you are saying a contractor is part of the DOD? Maybe, but that is not how contractors work in the private sector. If my company hires an outside contractor, they are not part of my company. But that is not really the point of the discussion.

    It was also contended that the website with the auction was part of the DOD website, but I am not sure that is true. The statement is:

    That is not DOD, is it?
     
  25. Waitone

    Waitone Member

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    If you listen to Gresham's noted show you would hear two things: First, the new rule went out last Thursday (IIRC). Second, yes brass is being sold. What is also happening is company's who have TAKEN DELIVERY of surplus brass are being told it must be shredded in the presence of a DoD representative.

    Lots of confusion out there but it will settle out.
     
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