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The end of the J-frame era

Old Dog said:
Gosh, I dunno... with Gold Dot 135 grain +P I get a muzzle velocity averaging around 860 FPS out of my 442. With my Glock 43X, and 124 grain Gold Dot JHPs, I get upwards of 1200-1250 FPS.

And the 43X has a far easier trigger pull and isn't nearly as snappy to shoot as an Airweight.

I'm not sure how what you consider "superior" or "meaningful."


I didn't intend this thread as a tired re-hash of the same ol' capacity debates and the need for reloads. My POV of what happens in muggings and murders comes from personal experience, working the street, getting quality one-on-one time with muggers and murderers.
Click to expand...

This right here deserves a thread of it's own, or maybe a pointer to an author you've found had similar experiences.
 
JimCunn said:
" If you work on your muscle tone a bit,"

I'm 82. My muscle tone is going in the other direction, no matter what I do.
My primary is the lightened 637-2 converted to 9mm. It hurts to shoot, but is a delight to carry, and is plenty accurate.
My BUG is a Browning 1911-380.

I might add; carry guns are tools. Never carry one you have a sentimental attachment to.
Click to expand...
I dont. I carry a basically box-stock Glock with two more in reserve, a duplicate just like it as a back up, should I need it, and another as my weekly practice gun. They make a bazillion of them every day, and they are all alike. :)

If it hurts to shoot, why bother? Lots of alternatives in the same type of gun that don't hurt. No need to suffer or avoid practice because of it.

Im about a decade behind you age-wise, and Ive always done my best to keep all the shooting muscle tone up as best I can. Daily dry fire with both handguns and long guns really helps there. The longer you push yourself to keep doing things, the longer you'll be able to. :)

Back in the "revolver era", there used to be a test to gauge your "trigger finger fitness" with a DA revolver. I forget now what the passing count was but it was based on the number of trigger pulls you did in a minute, or something like that. Im vaguely thinking something like 60 a minute was passing, but CRS has set in. :) I just now did it with my Model 10 snubbie and I got 110 "snaps" in 60 seconds.

One things for sure, if you can shoot a DA revolver DAO well, you can shoot pretty much any trigger without too much trouble or complaint and your shooting across the board will benefit. ;)
 
"Wait, you can convert an aluminum frame 38 special only into a 9mm?"

Yeah, works great. I've got three of them. I lighten them up another two ounces by using titanium .357Mag cylinders for the reaming.
 
JimCunn said:
"Wait, you can convert an aluminum frame 38 special only into a 9mm?"

Yeah, works great. I've got three of them. I lighten them up another two ounces by using titanium .357Mag cylinders for the reaming.
Click to expand...
May I ask, did you find it useful or necessary to replace the steel center pin with a titanium one to go along with the titanium cylinder, presumably to reduce mass and risk of unlocking during firing?
 
"If it hurts to shoot, why bother? Lots of alternatives in the same type of gun that don't hurt. No need to suffer or avoid practice because of it".

Because I like the platform. Been shooting J-frames for 60 years and see no reason to stop. The old Herrett Shooting Star grips spread the 9mm recoil load and make it managable. .38Sp doesn't hurt. I have no urge to try .357Mag in a 12 ounce gun.

"Im about a decade behind you age-wise, and Ive always done my best to keep all the shooting muscle tone up as best I can".

You know those hand squeezy things with the coil spring and two handles?
When I was playing pro-level tennis I could do 3500 reps nonstop. Now I'm down to a hundred. That trend is going to continue, but for the moment, I'm still good to go.

I've slowed down too; reaction time used to be good - now so, so. Here's a recent test result....
Screenshot_20240215-213820_Samsung Internet.jpg
 
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"May I ask, did you find it useful or necessary to replace the steel center pin with a titanium one to go along with the titanium cylinder, presumably to reduce mass and risk of unlocking during firing?"

Neither useful nor necessary, but I did it to one of the three for a lark.
I don't remember which one.
 
Ive always got my eye out for one of the I frame Terriers in 38 S&W. So far, I figure they know Im looking and are hiding out with the Remington Model 51's in 32acp. :)
 
JimCunn said:
"May I ask, did you find it useful or necessary to replace the steel center pin with a titanium one to go along with the titanium cylinder, presumably to reduce mass and risk of unlocking during firing?"

Neither useful nor necessary, but I did it to one of the three for a lark.
I don't remember which one.
Click to expand...
thank you
 
Old Dog said:
I finally did it.

Sold off my last (non-.22LR) J-frame (a cherry 442).

Over the past few years, I'd already divested myself of an unfired Model 37, a minty Model 36, a sweet Model 60, a (post-lock w/MIM) 637, a 3" Model 36, and a beat-up 642 (post-lock w/MIM and peeling finish).

I kept my 4" Model 63; it's a 6-shooter and I don't really think of it as a J-frame, since it's not a snubby, it's a six-shooter and it's not in .38 SPL.

After being an owner of at least a couple J-frame snubs at any given time for the past 40-odd years, I came to a few realizations: (1) they're not that fun to shoot; (2) I don't shoot them all that well (granted, I rarely practiced with any of 'em); (3) I just have never bonded with any of them (beyond the 63, which is splendid fun) and (4) I rarely carried any of them since the advent of the tiny reliable, concealable pistols in .380 ACP and 9mm.

I came to feel that a small autoloader with a bigger payload and far superior sights (especially given the great night sights available now), that pointed better, shot faster (better triggers, superior muzzle velocity), and concealed better was the direction in which I needed to go. Plus, there was always that nagging capacity issue and the slowness of the reload.

I hung on to my J-frames for many years out of pure sentimentality.

So my question is: Is there anyone else out there who's given up owning and/or carrying J-frames for the same or similar reasons?

If you still like your J-frames, why? Sentiment? As collectibles? Primary carry? BUG?
Click to expand...
I still love my j frames. Nothing to do with sentiment or collectibility.

Primary carry? Yes. My back up would have to be a blade or POM defense spray.

Still the fastest draw from a pocket for me. I don't know why, but I'm fastest point shooting and getting rounds on targets, even alternating steel targets, with a j frame.

I've tried naa minis, naa guardian, lcp, lcp custom, beretta bobcat, ruger ec9, Springfield hellcat, sig p365 w/safety, glock 26, sig 938, sig 238, bersa thunder 380 and 22, walther ppk 380 and 32, taurus ply, ruger sp101 2 and 3 inch, taurus model 85 and 856, ruger lcr 22 and 357...I might be forgetting a few...

Anyway, these all seem to be possible to pocket with varying degrees and concealment and ease of carry.

It did take a decade or more of training with the 642 to get good. Once you do, I found the skills don't atrophy much for me.

The stock grips, I know by feel if my middle finger digit is on the grip screw recess I'm "on" (target). Something with the angle particularly of the internal hammer 642 type is right in line with my wrist and it's the best set up for me to draw and fire and be right in the bullseye.

It's light enough. I still know it's there. A speed strip can be critical defense for easy pocket carry without the bare lead issues. For travel I can set it up with hardcast 158 grain thumpers or 150 grain hardcast wadcutters. I can load snake shot. This makes it a nice in town gun and a decent east of the mighty Mississippi hiking gun.

I've encountered wolf, coyote, black bear, mountain lion, and even a coon that was probably rabid. Haven't had to shoot but with those flat point 158s and another 8 ready to rip and tear, I was prepared to give a good showing of myself.

I practice on the timer dumping empties and tearing off just two from the strip and getting rounds on target down range while moving. It isn't too hard to get pretty quick with this.

A revolver guards my home, too.

I work with a guy who has been in 3 actual shootings. He works security now at my job site. He carried a 357 for years but now it's an open carry g19. It's just lighter on the hip all day. In the first shooting his issued glock (22) jammed after the first shot and he started taking rounds.

He went to his backup piece, a j frame, and put 3 into one shooter. The others were out of there. He woke up in the hospital but he survived.

You can find many cases where a glock in self defense chokes after one shot. I think it has to do with the lightness of the polymer frame. It really needs a firm grip. It's easy when bullets are flying to grip high and get your thumb in the way enough to slow the slide and cause a problem.

Every choice is a compromise unless we can go through life in level 4 body armor with an ar and red dot etc (which my state outlawed). Even then, you'll compromise your comfort doing that! You might even attract bad attentions from the folks who can't buy their own gear legally.

J frame gets it done for me in my daily life. I do have a car safe I can store something with more firepower, and if I need less weight and more concealment I can go to the lcp custom but that feels like more of a compromise. It doesn't draw and smoothly or quickly. It doesn't deliver the same terminal affects downrange.

It does give me more rounds on hand. 6+1 in the lcp, 2 more 7 rounders offhand pocket. One with xtps and one with underwood hardcast rounds. It's versatile and lighter/smaller but I feel a lot less battle ready. I can't draw and shoot nearly as quickly, it's so much less intuitive- which is my issue with most of the other small auto pocket options.

The minis feel like a bic lighter and seemed like they have about the same range.

The new micro 9s hellcat and 365 are bricks in the pocket, their square edges print and snag on the way out. I fumble to get on target. The ply 22 was 100% reliable but no extractor and the round is definitely lacking. I carried it until I found one range trip all my carry velociters failed to fire. I guess, being summer, the humidity fouled them. No more 22 carry for me.

The 938 in a pocket holster would often switch itself off safety. No Bueno.

I do miss my ruger ec9. Accurate, thin, light. 7 in the mag, 9 round extended. You don't give up too much. It was, next to the 938, the best pocket 9mm for me. I plan to replace it some day.

It was actually the ec9 I had when I ran into a big ol timber wolf. I was walking my female German shepherd, who stared this easily 150 pound wolf down until it headed back the way it came. I had plain old 124 grain fmj ball ammo in it and remember being glad, figuring if it rushed use I'd have plenty of penetration for angle. Glad it changed it's mind!

They're all just tools with plusses and minuses, if one no longer works for you use what does. Options are very good.

I'd like to ask Santa for a bodyguard 2.0 this year. I like the idea of this platform full of xtps in town and flat point fmj for the woods.

...but I still don't see the 642 being de thrones.

I really sucked with it back in 2008. Eventually something clicked , it's one of my most accurate guns and sometimes the only gun I have handy.

If I had to pick only one, I think that's it. Accuracy is the final answer!
 
defjon said:
You can find many cases where a glock in self defense chokes after one shot. I think it has to do with the lightness of the polymer frame. It really needs a firm grip.
Click to expand...
Glocks, like any other handgun, require practice. Limp-wristing the first shot could be fatal.
 
Old Dog said:
...
I came to feel that a small autoloader with a bigger payload and far superior sights (especially given the great night sights available now), that pointed better, shot faster (better triggers, superior muzzle velocity), and concealed better was the direction in which I needed to go. Plus, there was always that nagging capacity issue and the slowness of the reload.
...
Click to expand...
All good points. No one can make the case seriously that a revolver is as capable as an equivalent pistol in those areas.

But, that's not the only balancing. With the DA snub there's less to think about (manual safety, is the chamber loaded at the moment, where's the muzzle pointed with this light trigger in my pocket), less to fiddle with (loading, unloading, manual safeties), less chance of an AD when drawing or holstering with its longer and heavier trigger pull.

Just draw and shoot. Or not draw and shoot, right through your coat pocket if needed (no reciprocating slide or ejecting brass to cause a malfunction). No chance of a magazine catch being accidentally depressed, turning it into a 1-shot pistol.

Lack of attention to lubrication and cleaning rarely affect it (I watched a Glock choke when a dust bunny worked into the chamber in front of a loaded round - a revolver would have blown that out the muzzle).

Even the weakest .38 Special load has more power and penetration than any .380 ACP round. Decades have not changed the fact that most citizen defense encounters are over in a few seconds, with less 5 rounds fired, at less than 15 feet. The 5-shot J-Frame (and similar guns) fits with those parameters, goes virtually anywhere without much bother, is probably the "safest" firearm to carry, and doesn't need a lot of attention (especially from non-enthusiasts).

If knew in advance that you were forced to attend a deadly assault on your person, you would be wise to bring a rifle, a serious handgun, and some friends with rifles. For "just in case", the J-Frame - like other handguns - can be a wise choice.
 
defjon said:
You can find many cases where a glock in self defense chokes after one shot. I think it has to do with the lightness of the polymer frame. It really needs a firm grip. It's easy when bullets are flying to grip high and get your thumb in the way enough to slow the slide and cause a problem.
Click to expand...
Pat Riot said:
Glocks, like any other handgun, require practice. Limp-wristing the first shot could be fatal.
Click to expand...
Reminds me of Lance Thomas. He was shot four times (once in the neck), and successfully defended himself while badly injured with 3 revolvers without a malfunction. The next attempted robbery were he was injured, he had to defend himself with a gunshot to wound to the neck, and he was only able to get 3 shots off with his P225 before it jammed because of his imperfect grip. Luckily, he had several other firearms stashed within reach. He was able to grab his P220 to finish the job. That's one reason why I typically keep a revolver as a BUG if not a primarily. People are so obsessed with capacity, capacity, and capacity that they don't realize that it's a moot point if their gun jams while they're a fraction of a second from death. Mr. Thomas' P225 was basically a 3 shot pistol regardless of how many bullets it held.

I was in a gunfight during an armed robbery earlier this year, and my Shield 45acp malfunctioned after the 1st or 2nd shot. It happened fast, and I can't really recall if I fired one or two shots before the malfunction. Luckily I had enough distance and cover to be able to rack the slide and keep firing. I'm not sure why it malfunctioned, what the malfunction was exactly (I didn't inspect), and I had the gun since 2017 without every having had a malfunction. I haven't carried it since that day.

There are pros and cons to revolvers and semiautos, and one often ignored pro is that revolvers will be superior to pistols if you have to stay in the fight while badly injured or during a physical altercation where your grip may be affected. That especially goes for older gentlemen with weaker hand and grip strength. Shooting at paper safe, sound, and peacefully in a controlled environment isn't the equivalent to having to do it suddenly when your life is in danger. This is why revolvers will always fulfill a role with me as will semiautos. YMMV.

 
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@Styx "There are pros and cons to revolvers and semiautos, and one often ignored pro is that revolvers will be superior to pistols if you have to stay in the fight while badly injured or during a physical altercation where your grip may be affected.... Shooting at paper safe, sound, and peacefully in a controlled environment isn't the equivalent to having to do it suddenly when your life is in danger. This is why revolvers will always fulfill a role with me as will semiautos. YMMV."

We think alike.
 
defjon said:
You can find many cases where a glock in self defense chokes after one shot. I think it has to do with the lightness of the polymer frame. It really needs a firm grip. It's easy when bullets are flying to grip high and get your thumb in the way enough to slow the slide and cause a problem.
Click to expand...
If the guns choking on the first shot, there's either something wrong mechanically with it, or the shooter is inexperienced.

Glocks, and most autos will shoot without issue with absolutely no grip on the gun, as long as you maintain mass behind the gun.

And you want to grip the gun as high as you can get it, well, with most of them anyway, and that's a positive thing and not a negative. Tends to screw up the 1911's though. If your thumb is in the way, that's on you, and you know it shouldn't be there, or if youre experienced enough, you know.


Pat Riot said:
Glocks, like any other handgun, require practice. Limp-wristing the first shot could be fatal.
Click to expand...
"Everything" requires practice, revolvers, autos, everything, and lots of it, on a regular basis.

Limp writing has nothing to do with "the wrist". Its caused by allowing the arm to move rearward with recoil which dampens and impedes slide function. Keep your arm fixed, even with no grip on the gun at all, and it will cycle.

And if the arm is injured enough to cause issues with an auto, I doubt you'll do very well with a revolver either. All the muscles needed to work the revolver and right there.

Styx said:
Reminds me of Lance Thomas. He was shot four times (once in the neck), and successfully defended himself while badly injured with 3 revolvers without a malfunction. The next attempted robbery were he was injured, he had to defend himself with a gunshot to wound to the neck, and he was only able to get 3 shots off with his P225 before it jammed because of his imperfect grip. Luckily, he had several other firearms stashed within reach. He was able to grab his P220 to finish the job. That's one reason why I typically keep a revolver as a BUG if not a primarily. People are so obsessed with capacity, capacity, and capacity that they don't realize that it's a moot point if their gun jams while they're a fraction of a second from death. Mr. Thomas' P225 was basically a 3 shot pistol regardless of how many bullets it held.

I was in a gunfight during an armed robbery earlier this year, and my Shield 45acp malfunctioned after the 1st or 2nd shot. It happened fast, and I can't really recall if I fired one or two shots before the malfunction. Luckily I had enough distance and cover to be able to rack the slide and keep firing. I'm not sure why it malfunctioned, what the malfunction was exactly (I didn't inspect), and I had the gun since 2017 without every having had a malfunction. I haven't carried it since that day.

There are pros and cons to revolvers and semiautos, and one often ignored pro is that revolvers will be superior to pistols if you have to stay in the fight while badly injured or during a physical altercation where your grip may be affected. That especially goes for older gentlemen with weaker hand and grip strength. Shooting at paper safe, sound, and peacefully in a controlled environment isn't the equivalent to having to do it suddenly when your life is in danger. This is why revolvers will always fulfill a role with me as will semiautos. YMMV.

Click to expand...

See above. ^^

If you are using a well made and reasonably maintained auto, and feed it reliable ammo, they are just as reliable as a revolver. Generally, if there are issues, its due to operator error, and that goes for all of them too, not just the autos.

If you arent comfortable with, or willing to put in the time with the autos to be able to work and shoot them properly, then a DA revolver is your best choice. Just bear in mind, you still need to learn to work them properly and they all need regular practice if you hope to be proficient with them.
 
trackskippy said:
Limp writing has nothing to do with "the wrist". Its caused by allowing the arm to move rearward with recoil which dampens and impedes slide function. Keep your arm fixed, even with no grip on the gun at all, and it will cycle.

And if the arm is injured enough to cause issues with an auto, I doubt you'll do very well with a revolver either. All the muscles needed to work the revolver and right there.
Click to expand...
“Limp-wristing” is just a term for not holding or not being capable of holding a semiauto firmly enough to function fully. At least that is how I see it.

Also, I am not promoting one type of gun over another in my statement. I am just stating a fact:
Practice is necessary with any firearm.
 
trackskippy said:
If the guns choking on the first shot, there's either something wrong mechanically with it, or the shooter is inexperienced.

Glocks, and most autos will shoot without issue with absolutely no grip on the gun, as long as you maintain mass behind the gun.

And you want to grip the gun as high as you can get it, well, with most of them anyway, and that's a positive thing and not a negative. Tends to screw up the 1911's though. If your thumb is in the way, that's on you, and you know it shouldn't be there, or if youre experienced enough, you know.



"Everything" requires practice, revolvers, autos, everything, and lots of it, on a regular basis.

Limp writing has nothing to do with "the wrist". Its caused by allowing the arm to move rearward with recoil which dampens and impedes slide function. Keep your arm fixed, even with no grip on the gun at all, and it will cycle.

And if the arm is injured enough to cause issues with an auto, I doubt you'll do very well with a revolver either. All the muscles needed to work the revolver and right there.


See above. ^^

If you are using a well made and reasonably maintained auto, and feed it reliable ammo, they are just as reliable as a revolver. Generally, if there are issues, its due to operator error, and that goes for all of them too, not just the autos.

If you arent comfortable with, or willing to put in the time with the autos to be able to work and shoot them properly, then a DA revolver is your best choice. Just bear in mind, you still need to learn to work them properly and they all need regular practice if you hope to be proficient with them.
Click to expand...
It doesn't necessarily matter if a semiauto is in good working condition or not or how often someone practices. The fact is semiautos are more complicated, and they depend on ammo, the slide not being impeded, and a good grip even if the gun is in a well maintained working state. Some of those things can very well be compromised while in certain self-defense situations. Sure, semiautos can be very reliable in perfect conditions that most online "experts" typically train and practice in, but the reality is shooters might be forced into imperfect conditions either because of the human factor while under stress, injury, or because they are physically fighting a threat.

Even in the Zimmerman/Trayvon case, Zimmerman was only able to fire one shot while being in a physical altercation, and his gun jammed as well. He was carrying 7+1, but it was reported that the gun was found with an empty chamber and a full magazine.

@defjon Shared an example of someone he knows who is experienced with firearms. His acquaintance had a malfunction with a Glock. That's just another example you seen to have glossed over.

I also provided an example of a well-documented case where a man who was an experienced shooter and who successfully defended himself against armed robbery suspects multiple times was able to fire 18 shots (IIRC) from multiple revolvers after being shot four times, with one of those times being in his neck. In his next defensive shooting, he was shot only once in the neck, and according to him, that affected his grip, which caused his gun to jam after 3 shots.

Then I posted my own personal experiences of a malfunction with my Shield 45 that I carried for several years. I'm not a newbie. I practiced with that gun. I put many rounds through the gun. It was well maintained and cleaned. I had quality JHP self-defense ammo loaded into it. It never malfunctioned even once in all the years I owned it. Even still, I had a malfunction while in a self-defense encounter.

I've seen several cases on the popular YouTube channel Active Self Protection where a defender semiauto jammed while in the middle of a gunfight. I don't recall any of those malfunctions resulting in the defender being killed, but the fact is that it could have. I've watched and seen countless malfunctions during IDPA and other shooting competitions. These shooters range from novelists to experts. They were all using quality and reputable equipment. Most firearm training classes will train with how to clear malfunctions for a reason, and if semiautos are as perfect and problem-free as they seem to imply, that wouldn't be necessary.

The fact is that these are legitimate things that can happen. The fact is that there are several legitimate and probable things that can happen to cause semiautos to malfunction that a revolver wouldn't be necessary affected by. Yes, a revolver can malfunction too, but the probability of a malfunction happening with a revolver that's in good working condition is much less compared to a semiauto that's in good condition. I know it's an inconvenient fact that some semiauto carriers don't want to acknowledge or want to be dismissive of, but it's still a fact.
 
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Im not dismissing the fact that they happen, everything can fail, but generally when they do, its the user that's the issue and not the gun. And for some reason it should happen to be the gun, you don't want to be holding a revolver when it happens. ;)

I know a ton of people who bought Glocks, SIG's, 1911's, etc because that's what they were told to buy, or see everyone else using, who barely know how to load and shoot them, let alone deal with them under any kind of stress. A revolver would likely be a better choice for them, but probably, not by much if they shoot the gun empty and have to do anything with it in the same circumstances.

If you arent willing to put in the time and effort to learn and become competent and proficient with what you choose, then you need to choose something that you can, and you do have to do the work.

I shoot both revolvers and autos all the time and rarely have an issue with either, but they all do have issues, and the revolvers are usually the ugliest of them when they do. The autos rarely have a stoppage that cant be resolved in a matter of seconds. The revolvers are usually DRT when they stop.

But of course, if you don't keep up with your handling skills, failure drills, etc, and know what to do when something does go south, whats it matter what the gun is?
 
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