The end of the J-frame era

[Buckeye63]

Seems like I have always had a snubbie in my carry rotation

 

[cfullgraf]

I’m not comfortable carrying a striker fired pistol so J-frames such as a 642, 442, or 432 fits in the pocket and I’m comfortable carrying it.

I generally I load standard 38 Special ammunition in the 38 Special guns as the recoil is more manageable. The 432 is new to the inventory and I have not sorted out what ammunition I’d like yet.

I like DA/SA pistols as well but the smaller ones have snappier recoil even with standard ammunition.

I spent a year practicing with my 642 working to get proficient with the DA trigger. The practice carried over to DA/SA pistols as I’ve gotten better with them. In fact, my main fuller sized pistol is an HK P30SK with the V3 trigger.

I have a few J-frames in cartridges from 22LR to 357 Mag with exposed hammers that I keep for range plinking or critter control (317, 34, and 63 in 22LR).

So, J-frames are important to me.

 

[Styx]

Guessin' the owner of the Seattle smoke shop that exchanged fire with the guys who robbed his store last night was glad he had more than a J-frame when he pulled up and they started shooting at him from the shop....
View attachment 1229846

He's lucky he wasn't killed. It's a little bit of a disingenuous point as one would be glad they didn't have the 43x or even a Glock 17 semiautomatic in this situation....

What you conveniently left out is that the smoke shop owner's store was closed at the time. He drove to the store to confront and get into a gun fight with ELEVEN ((11)) robbery suspects (some of which were armed) at 2:30 am who he was notified was actively robbing his store. My guess is that those shell casings on the ground didn't come from the shop owner's firearm.

It was a stupid thing for him to do, and he was underarmed whether he had a revolver or the typical 10, 15 (+1) semiauto. He, like many police officers, ran to and put himself in a dangerous situation that most of us who don't oversee thousands of dollars in valuables, aren't law enforcement, drug dealers, gang bangers, or live in the hood wouldn't find ourselves in.

Other than that, I didn't see any reports of what firearms were or weren't used. What gun did the store owner show up with? How many rounds did the shop owner fire?

 

[Buckeye63]

Model 12

 

[orionengnr]

I have not given up on J-frames, but am trimming down my collection to just one--my recently-purchased .32 H&R 432UC.
My aging wrists are increasingly intolerant of .38 Spl alloy J-frames, and the .32 H&R somewhat addresses the capacity issue--6 versus 5 rounds.
My EDC is a Kahr PM9 (6+1 9mm), which I still shoot pretty well.
So the 432 is just an alternative...I really like the J-frame in theory, but as I grow older, a bit less in practice.

 

[sgt127]

I own two. A 642 I carried for 30 years as a back up at work. Too sentimental, can’t get rid of it.

And a 650. 3”. .22 Magnum with a fitted .22 LR cylinder from the factory. I too carried it as a BUG on certain occasions and, it’s still fun to shoot.

I did pick up a Kimber K6xs. Everything I love about a 642 but, better sights. And, a sixth round. I’ve been carrying it a lot.

A new J frame really wouldn’t do much for me. Except, maybe the 8 shot .22 LR centennial.

 

[jdc1244]

f you still like your J-frames, why?

Primary carry, ease of carry, comfort, slip it in your front pocket and you’re done.

Revolvers are more reliable than semi-autos.

.38 Spl is a perfectly effective self-defense round.

Self-defense incidents are in close proximity to the attacker – likely physical contact – where a snub is ideal.

 

[Buckeye63]

Revolvers overall are more reliable.
But when something goes wrong … its done If cylinder locks up , or cylinder release latch fails .. your SOL
With a semi.. usually . Drop mag and clear or insert another mag… nuthin is foolproof..
After saying that .. I feel well armed with a revolver.. small or medium framed ..
Some people use a small framed revolver as a primary or two small frame revolvers as a primary.. or a small frame as bug with a semiautomatic as a primary.

 

[Styx]

Revolvers overall are more reliable.
But when something goes wrong … its done If cylinder locks up , or cylinder release latch fails .. your SOL
With a semi.. usually . Drop mag and clear or insert another mag… nuthin is foolproof..
After saying that .. I feel well armed with a revolver.. small or medium framed ..
Some people use a small framed revolver as a primary or two small frame revolvers as a primary.. or a small frame as bug with a semiautomatic as a primary.

To be fair, you're comparing broken or worn parts with regards to revolvers to more common ammo, user, or physics malfunctions that happen with semiautos. If the recoil spring, magazine release, magazine, or extractor breaks, is out of spec or is worn, you're SOL with a semiauto too in a self-defense situation. That's true for all man made products when parts are significantly out of spec or completely break.

The chances of a property engineered, QA'd, and maintained revolver that's in working condition malfunctioning or leaving the shooter SOL in a self-defense encounter is exponentially lower than a semiauto in a similar working condition experiencing a malfunction. The chances of both revolvers and semiautos that have design flaws, had bad quality controls, or were neglected having a malfunction are very high.

I agree with you. I feel more than adequately armed with a revolver. If I feel like the threat level is higher, I either stay home, or will carry a fullsized gun with a revolver as a BUG.

 

[Tallball]

To be fair, you're comparing broken or worn parts with regards to revolvers to more common ammo, user, or physics malfunctions that happen with semiautos. If the recoil spring, magazine release, magazine, or extractor breaks, is out of spec or is worn, you're SOL with a semiauto too in a self-defense situation. That's true for all man made products when parts are significantly out of spec or completely break.

The chances of a property engineered, QA'd, and maintained revolver that's in working condition malfunctioning or leaving the shooter SOL in a self-defense encounter is exponentially lower than a semiauto in a similar working condition experiencing a malfunction. The chances of both revolvers and semiautos that have design flaws, had bad quality controls, or were neglected having a malfunction are very high.

I agree with you. I feel more than adequately armed with a revolver. If I feel like the threat level is higher, I either stay home, or will carry a fullsized gun with a revolver as a BUG.

Way to speak against the groupthink! Very tired of hearing the "but when a revolver does malfunction"...

Running a bunch of cheap bulk 22lr through a semiauto and a revolver will quickly teach you which one malfunctions and hangs up more often.

Hint: It's not even close. Not even close to close.

 

[trackskippy]

Way to speak against the groupthink! Very tired of hearing the "but when a revolver does malfunction"...

Running a bunch of cheap bulk 22lr through a semiauto and a revolver will quickly teach you which one malfunctions and hangs up more often.

Hint: It's not even close. Not even close to close.

All depends on what youre comparing to what.

Running 50-100 rounds of any .22 through my S&W 63 (or the 317 I had) usually has me making sure the rounds are properly seated in the chambers or I get a lot light strikes, and it only gets worse the more I shoot them. And that's starting from a spotlessly clean gun.

I can take either of the Glock 44's or the Beretta 92-22 I have and shoot a brick out of them without a single stoppage. On the other hand, the couple of Beretta 21's I had, would start to give me trouble about the same time the 63 does. Either way, it all depends on what you have and how well you keep them. Historically for me though, the 22 revolvers always gave more trouble than the autos.

I shoot a lot of both autos and revolvers all the time. The bulk of it is with autos, but I usually shoot a couple hundred rounds out of different revolvers every week. Considering the number of rounds fired, especially with reloads that the worn-out brass is nearing the end of its life, the autos are less sensitive to ammo problems and have less issues. And when they do, its usually resolved quickly with a TRB.

The revolvers are a lot less tolerant of that same sort of ammo and the stoppages due to it are usually a gun that's DRT.

Give them both good ammo, and maintain them properly, they both will usually run fine and with little issue. And if that's all you shoot and don't shoot a lot (even factory ammo will eventually give you trouble if you shoot enough of it), you likely wont run into any issues.

 

[sgt127]

I agree with you. I feel more than adequately armed with a revolver.

Taking parts breaking out of the equation, pure mechanical reliability between a revolver and a semi auto, is about equal. Though, truth be told, I’ve had more autos break parts. But, the odds of it happening, in the middle of a gunfight, are exceptionally small.

A clean well lubed semi auto will occasionally, have a malfunction. For seemingly no reason. Perhaps a round slightly out of spec. The dreaded “limp wrist” under stress. A crappy one handed hold. Whatever.

Semi autos malfunction during the feeding or ejecting cycle. Really, the only time they can “jam” in use.

A revolver completes the feeding and ejecting cycle before and after a string of fire. Manually. By the shooter. It cannot have a feeding or ejecting malfunction during the time it’s being fired.

An oversized round will be discovered before the string of fire. And, not loaded. By the shooter. A case that gets caught under the ejector star, will occur after the gun has been shot dry.

So, for the 5-8 rounds that are fired by the revolver, it cannot have a feeding or ejecting malfunction during a string of fire. Period. And, if a semi auto jams, that’s when they usually bobble.

 

[Styx]

Taking parts breaking out of the equation, pure mechanical reliability between a revolver and a semi auto, is about equal. Though, truth be told, I’ve had more autos break parts. But, the odds of it happening, in the middle of a gunfight, are exceptionally small.

A clean well lubed semi auto will occasionally, have a malfunction. For seemingly no reason. Perhaps a round slightly out of spec. The dreaded “limp wrist” under stress. A crappy one handed hold. Whatever.

Semi autos malfunction during the feeding or ejecting cycle. Really, the only time they can “jam” in use.

A revolver completes the feeding and ejecting cycle before and after a string of fire. Manually. By the shooter. It cannot have a feeding or ejecting malfunction during the time it’s being fired.

An oversized round will be discovered before the string of fire. And, not loaded. By the shooter. A case that gets caught under the ejector star, will occur after the gun has been shot dry.

So, for the 5-8 rounds that are fired by the revolver, it cannot have a feeding or ejecting malfunction during a string of fire. Period. And, if a semi auto jams, that’s when they usually bobble.

I agree with your post, but I'd like to add my personal experience.

I have fired factory 357 out of my LCR. The recoil was so bad that the factory WWB ammo I was shooter jumped crimp, and cause it to lock up in the cylinder. Was a PITA to fix.

The one and only malfunction I've ever had with a fully functional revolver, but that was a case of shooting 357mag out of a small 17-oz revolver. That malfunction wouldn't have happened in a self-defense situation because I only EDC 38 special and it's usually with quality ammo. Although rare, crimp jump is a valid issue that can happen with lightweight revolvers and hot ammo that's not an issue with semiautos.

I have a taurus pt7338 jammed with a live round in the chamber the slide will not close completely and will not open any advise

Had the same thing happen with my Springfield XD Mod 2 9mm at the range. Range officer had to use a copper punch and a mallet to get it unjammed...

Semiautos are not immune and don't necessarily have the advantage compared to revolvers and crimp jump.... On the flip side, I personally had a live round get wedged in the chamber that rendered my semiauto inoperable, similar to somewhat happens to a revolver/cylinder as I couldn't open or close the slide. I've heard of similar cases happening over the years on firearm forums. This, too, is rare, but it can also happen. That said, semiautos can suffer from bullet setbacks, which isn't a concern with revolvers.

My point is that revolvers and semiauto both have semular things that can happen that can take them both out of the fight; however, on top of that fact, semiautos have much more that can go wrong than revolvers. That's why I believe the whole "when things go wrong with revolvers, your out of the fight, but when things go wrong with semiautos, you're still in the fight" common talking point is a little disingenuous.

‐-------------

All in all, I've collectively have had more malfunctions as a result of accidentally pushing the slide stop up, hitting the mag releases, riding the slide (caused a F2F), limp-wristing, and ammo related issues in my lifetime vs the only malfunction I had with my LCR. F2F, F2E, double feeds, so on and so forth. These are malfunction that can easily be induced while injured, while in a physical altercation, or while under duress. There's a reason why most training classes have malfunction drills for semiauto shooters and not so much with revolver shooters.

 

[trackskippy]

I think you see malfunction drills for the autos, simply because if you have one you can usually recover from it quickly and easily. Most any malfunction you set up with a revolver, basically kills the gun right then and you arent going to get it back in action in any kind of reasonable amount of time so what's the point?

As to that auto malfunction with a round stuck in the chamber, unless its really jammed in there, and if it is, its likely because you tried to hammer the slide shut, when you should have gone right to clearing it (think AR FA induced malfunction ), you can normally get them out pretty easily and quickly by grasping the slide with an overhand grip and driving the grip forward a couple of times with a quick "rap". Ive yet to have one not clear, and Ive had those happen in the past more than a few times with out of spec reloads.

When my last set of 9mm dies wore out, I started having problems with cases not sizing properly and started getting some cases with bulges at the base of the bullet, which would cause the malfunction you describe. Its not a fun stoppage, but its usually not a DRT stoppage, and if you've done the drill to clear it before, you wont be standing there looking at the gun with "that look" on your face.

Auto to revolver, if youre shooting them enough, youre going to see some not-so-nice to ugly stuff at some point, and its actually good that you do, so you get to experience what could go wrong ahead of time and how to deal with it. The key here is, to learn from those sorts of things so you know whats going on, what may or may not be worth bothering with, and can deal with it however is necessary.

Just assuming one is better or less apt to have an issue because that's what you've been told, or that's what you think, isn't the way to deal with it.

 

[sgt127]

Although rare, crimp jump is a valid issue that can happen with lightweight revolvers and hot ammo that's not an issue with semiautos.

Valid point. But, you discovered it, in practice and now, wouldn’t carry that ammo for defense.

In an auto, an underpowered round could fail to cycle the slide. Causing a stoppage. Either could, of course get a squib. The next round could, push both bullets out the barrel.

Or, could cause a spontaneous unintentional dissasembly of either gun.

 

[Styx]

As to that auto malfunction with a round stuck in the chamber, unless its really jammed in there, and if it is, its likely because you tried to hammer the slide shut, when you should have gone right to clearing it (think AR FA induced malfunction ), you can normally get them out pretty easily and quickly by grasping the slide with an overhand grip and driving the grip forward a couple of times with a quick "rap". Ive yet to have one not clear, and Ive had those happen in the past more than a few times with out of spec reloads.

Not exactly. It happens in the process of shooting. The empty casing is ejected, and the next round is stuck particularly in the camber with the slide not fully in battery. You can neither open or close the side manually as it's welded in there, so to speak. In my case, it took a couple of range officers a few minutes to get the live round out. I tried everything and then multiple range offers tried to manually get the round out as well. They had to resort to using a punch, mallet, and elbow grease. I've seen many other similar accounts on this and other forums. The same has happened with ARs and AKs. It's not something the user did wrong nor was it reloads in my and most of the other cases I've read about. If you do an internet search, you'll see that it's more of a common occurrence than many might assume.

Other than that, I've had the extractor slip off the rim (9mm) while shooting which obviously caused a malfunction. This was also with factory ammo. I had to borrow an RO's brass punch to knock the case out from the muzzle end. That would have put me out the fight in a self-defense situation as well.

 

[trackskippy]

Not exactly. It happens in the process of shooting. The empty casing is ejected, and the next round is stuck particularly in the camber with the slide not fully in battery. You can neither open or close the side manually. In my case, it took a couple of range officers a few minutes to get the live round out. I tried everything and then multiple range offers tried to manually get the round out as well. They had to resort to using a punch, mallet, and elbow grease. I've seen many other similar accounts on this and other forums. The same has happened with ARs and AKs. It's not something the user did wrong nor was it reloads in my and most of the other cases I've read about.

If you do an internet search, you'll see that it's more of a common occurrence than many might assume.

What youre describing is exactly what I was referring to.

Heres how clearing it works.....

How to fix bad round stuck in handgun chamber! Quickly!

A quick tutorial instructing you how to remove a bad round from the chamber of a handgun when the slide is stuck in, or partially in battery. I demonstrate h...

youtu.be

Not saying it will work 100% of the time, but Ive yet to not have it work when Ive had it happen and used it.

 

[sgt127]

@Styx

I think you are describing is what NYPD called a Phase 3 malfunction. The Glock acted like it was welded shut.

As an aside, I went to my annual LEO retiree Qualification. Brought a box of Winchester 115 gr flatpoint ball. And, a Kahr K9.

That gun has been 100% reliable. Even though it broke off the slide stop lever a couple hundred rounds ago. But, the gun kept shooting.

In 50 rounds, I had 8 stoppages. The round hit the feedramp and just stopped. Cold. I don’t think the round moved a tenth of an inch out of the magazine.

I still managed to clear them all, make the (fairly generous) times and, shot a 100.

The Range Officers however complimented me on my failure drills. . So, I at least got something out of it.

I grabbed some cheap Republic ball and hosed off three mags worth without a bobble. I’ve shot a couple hundred rounds of that through my P239 without issue. In a Kahr? Nope.

 

[Styx]

What youre describing is exactly what I was referring to.

Heres how clearing it works.....

How to fix bad round stuck in handgun chamber! Quickly!

A quick tutorial instructing you how to remove a bad round from the chamber of a handgun when the slide is stuck in, or partially in battery. I demonstrate h...

youtu.be

Not saying it will work 100% of the time, but Ive yet to not have it work when Ive had it happen and used it.

I'll have to try that next time. I do believe the ROs tried something similar with no luck. It only ever happened to me once years ago, but I'll try that the next time around. Thanks.

Any quicker tips you know of for getting wedged in brash out of the chamber after the extractor slips off and won't catch on the rim?

 

[Styx]

@Styx

I think you are describing is what NYPD called a Phase 3 malfunction. The Glock acted like it was welded shut.

As an aside, I went to my annual LEO retiree Qualification. Brought a box of Winchester 115 gr flatpoint ball. And, a Kahr K9.

That gun has been 100% reliable. Even though it broke off the slide stop lever a couple hundred rounds ago. But, the gun kept shooting.

In 50 rounds, I had 8 stoppages. The round hit the feedramp and just stopped. Cold. I don’t think the round moved a tenth of an inch out of the magazine.

I still managed to clear them all, make the (fairly generous) times and, shot a 100.

The Range Officers however complimented me on my failure drills. . So, I at least got something out of it.

I grabbed some cheap Republic ball and hosed off three mags worth without a bobble. I’ve shot a couple hundred rounds of that through my P239 without issue. In a Kahr? Nope.

I already mentioned this, but my EDC was a Shield 45. Had it about 7 years now (2017). Never had even one issue. Had it to the range plenty of times. I had to use it to defend myself last year, and I had a malfunction that I had to clear. Not sure what the malfunction was because it was dark. I got 2 shots off, and then "click" with the slide closed in battery. I just racked the slide, and was up and running again. I almost had a heart attack when it happened..... It just dawned on me that I'm lucky that it wasn't a squib. I was carrying Federal HST. That experience alone made me appreciate revolvers more.

L.E. had It for a few months. I haven't fired or carried it since then.

 

[trackskippy]

I'll have to try that next time. I do believe the ROs tried something similar with no luck. It only ever happened to me once years ago, but I'll try that the next time around. Thanks.

Any quicker tips you know of for getting wedged in brash out of the chamber after the extractor slips off and won't catch on the rim?

The malfunction drill kind of goes against what most would consider normal handling and may seem a bit strange the first time you do it, but you get the idea of how things go and the force necessary to make it work.

Keep one of these in my pocket (and on all my chest bags) for the AR's, but it will work for a lot of things. In a pinch, it can be a weapon in its own right too.

 

[wayneinFL]

Sorry, was trying to keep it light -- no insult intended -- but I feel I've not gotten real answers on just why so many are compelled to carry a handgun that's (1) more difficult to shoot accurately; (2) can compromise concealment due to cylinder width or mode of carry; (3) is capacity-challenged, compared to comparably sized pistols that can hold 8+1, 10+1, 12+1 of fast-moving 9mm JHPs; and (4) point better, manage recoil better and typically possess somewhat higher muzzle velocity, thereby improving expansion.

Few responding posters seem to admit they're keeping on with their J-frames out of anything other than familiarlty, sentimentality or laziness...

I don't have any sentimentality for the J frames. I started carrying in 2002, and my first gun was a Glock. I don't know or care what you oldtimers did before Gaston Glock perfected the semiautomatic pistol.

I use the j-frame only for pocket carry.
98% of the time, that's in my house. When I do carry a pistol on my hip, I still have the J-frame as a backup. It might still be the first thing I get to in an emergency. I can't get my hand on my pistol on my hip with a full firing grip without people noticing.

You got my "real answer" on why I like a J frame a couple of pages ago. A hammerless J frame slips out of a pocket better than a semi-auto. Semiautos all seem to have this slide thing on top. When they make a hi-cap 9mm without a slide, and with a little boot grip where I can get it in a full grip in my pocket, I'll change.

 

[GRIZ22]

J frames will never go away.

 

[unclenunzie]

J frames will never go away.

Agree with this sentiment - but all things eventually are eclipsed. Someday something new will work better for the same purposes, and that will spell the end of the J. But until then, they fit the mission better than anything else.

 

[Gordon]

He's lucky he wasn't killed. It's a little bit of a disingenuous point as one would be glad they didn't have the 43x or even a Glock 17 semiautomatic in this situation....

What you conveniently left out is that the smoke shop owner's store was closed at the time. He drove to the store to confront and get into a gun fight with ELEVEN ((11)) robbery suspects (some of which were armed) at 2:30 am who he was notified was actively robbing his store. My guess is that those shell casings on the ground didn't come from the shop owner's firearm.

It was a stupid thing for him to do, and he was underarmed whether he had a revolver or the typical 10, 15 (+1) semiauto. He, like many police officers, ran to and put himself in a dangerous situation that most of us who don't oversee thousands of dollars in valuables, aren't law enforcement, drug dealers, gang bangers, or live in the hood wouldn't find ourselves in.

Other than that, I didn't see any reports of what firearms were or weren't used. What gun did the store owner show up with? How many rounds did the shop owner fire?

I'm not mad at anyone here , nor the poor owner of the Seattle Smoke shop, for responding to disgusting 11 + armed robbers in his downtown store at 2:30 , after they have gone to a city of compassionate community policing. I'm mad at such situations are now routine in a beautiful American City I used to enjoy visiting. But it certainly has given me and others pause for considering a 5 shot snub as a primary or even secondary carry. So as Jeff Cooper taught me about the J frame "derringer " as he referred to it has all become reality. Sure, it beats unarmed, but in a tactical situation, we are always going to want a lot more.
To put an end to the squabbling, if I had a long-term business in a City situation like that shop in Seatle, rather than waiting for the social workers to respond at 2:30 a.m. and having my financial future destroyed (you're dreaming about looted commodity shop owners compensated fairly by insurance for robberies these days), I would attempt to stop such things, and if armed felons threatened, I would be armed and trained to win! That would mean a high fire volume shouldered piece and at least one 15 or greater capacity pistol with a belt full of magazines for both arms. A deep concealed J-frame snub would also be nice under the body armor I'd be wearing with my MICH Helmet and light.. desperate times call for desperate measures.