The first real test of Florida's "Stand Your Ground" law

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ceetee

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Pardon me if this has been posted before. A quick search didn't find it.

Murder suspect argues killings were legal under new 'stand your ground' law

By Nancy L. Othón
South Florida Sun-Sentinel
Posted April 12 2007



Palm Beach County Circuit Judge William Berger was asked Wednesday to do something that apparently no other Florida judge has done: dismiss murder charges against a man based on a relatively new law that allows the use of deadly force if someone's life is threatened.

Berger didn't rule on whether Norman Borden, 44, should go free, but asked attorneys whether he has the authority to come up with a pretrial procedure and burden-of-proof standard for which neither the Florida Supreme Court nor the Legislature has provided guidance.

Borden is charged with two counts of murder and one count of attempted murder in the Oct. 8 deaths of Christopher Araujo, 19, and Saul Trejo, 21. Juan Mendez, 20, survived the shooting.

Borden claims he shot the men because he feared they were about to run him down in a Jeep as he finished a walk with his dogs.

Public Defender Carey Haughwout argued during Wednesday's hearing that Borden is immune from criminal prosecution because he was protecting himself against three men who were about to inflict harm on him. It's thought to be the first time that Florida's "stand your ground" law has been used in an attempt to get murder charges dismissed since it went into effect in 2005.

When the law changed, Haughwout told Berger, it eliminated the duty to retreat and provided immunity for people who use force if they reasonably believe it's necessary to prevent death or bodily harm. There is no Florida case law on the topic, so Berger's standard of proof in his decision should be the greater weight of the evidence, as it is in at least one other state, Haughwout argued.

The greater weight of the evidence, a less-stringent standard than reasonable doubt, is used in civil cases.

Assistant State Attorney Craig Williams said the question should be one for a jury to decide.

Haughwout countered that it would have made no sense for legislators to include language about immunity if they intended for juries to decide the issue.

Borden told detectives that at least one of the men he shot had threatened his dogs when he took them for a walk about 2:30 a.m. The parties exchanged words, and Mendez threatened to beat up Borden while hanging out of the Jeep's door, according to the motion. Borden showed Mendez and Araujo that he was armed and kicked the door of the Jeep before the men drove away.

Araujo and Mendez returned minutes later with Trejo, a documented member of the gang Sur 13, according to court documents.

Borden, who was still outside, told authorities the Jeep headed directly at him and he was in fear for his life when he began shooting. The Jeep struck Borden "ever so slightly" and hit a fence, and Borden continued to fire his gun as long as there was "extensive movement in the vehicle and the danger appeared ongoing," according to the motion to dismiss.

"He was where he had a right to be and he had no duty to retreat," Haughwout said.

Even Mendez admits that Borden could have thought he was going to be hit by the Jeep, Haughwout said.

Berger gave attorneys until April 27 to present written arguments on the standard-of-proof issue and set an evidentiary hearing for May 14.

So, as it apears to me, the argument is over whether there should be a set standard a judge can point to and say "This is self-defense" vs. letting a jury hear both sides of the story and deciding on a case-by-case basis. How says THR? Juries can be manipulated by slick attorneys. Judges can become jaded after hearing the same old story a million times. I think there should be some sort of burden of proof placed on the person who defended himself, in that he should be able to show how he was in fear of his life... but I also imagine that if a robber gets shot, it would just turn into some kind of "he said-she said" argument. Where should the line be drawn? How much proof should be required to indicate self-defense?

Link to story
 
Thanks for posting this. It will be interesting to see how it develops. One thing though: I am not sure if the Sentinel has it right about the stand your ground doctrine being challenged for the first time. If memory serves me right, I remember reading an article in Miami Herald about some gang members in Dade County getting away with shootings (and possibly murder) based on the aforementioned doctrine.
 
This is the first case I've heard of where a person was actually charged with murder, and used this law as a defense. In all the other cases I've heard about, the need for "self-defense" was obvious. In this case, though, they're arguing about exactly how much need did the defendant have to defend himself.

It's going to be interesting to see how it plays out.
 
A tow truck driver used it in Tampa shortly after the law was enacted but I don't know how it work for him.

The law holds someone who legitimately uses deadly force immune from prosecution then there can be not prosecution if he is found to be justified in his use of deadly force

It seems like more a case for an inquest before a jury trial.
If it does go to jury and the defendant is found not guilty he is then entitled to compensation
 
Haughwout countered that it would have made no sense for legislators to include language about immunity if they intended for juries to decide the issue.

IIRC the Florida immunity language only applies to civil suits, not when actual charges of murder are brought by the prosecutor.

Borden showed Mendez and Araujo that he was armed and kicked the door of the Jeep before the men drove away.

That is exactly the kind of poorly considered move that is going to haunt him if they do bring this to trial. It makes him look more like an aggressor than a victim.
 
Most cases in Florida (acording to the Slantinel) involving the "no retreat law" have been bad shoots- I think it was something like ~25 cases of self defense but only a handful really were.

The courts really need a litmus test for when you have the right to not back down- not just charge them with Murder and let them claim the defense. If you are in the right, you should be at home sleeping in your bed that night-
 
dilemma

This is the sort of problem I have worried about since I first heard about the immunity provisions of the “stand your ground” laws; how is it decided?
If you have to go to trial anyway, the law does less good than it appeared to at first.
But, if there is no trial, who makes the decision?
A DA, with no open records for public accountability? I am not confident that that will work well. Too much opportunity for selective decision-making.
Perhaps what is needed is some sort of pre-trial trial. An official determination made in advance of any other charges. Although I don’t see an easy way to make that any less threatening (and expensive) than a regular criminal trial.
 
This is the sort of problem I have worried about since I first heard about the immunity provisions of the “stand your ground” laws; how is it decided?

It's quite simple. If you are found not guilty (i.e. killed the person in self defence) then you are immune from civil lawsuits, which is basically the family suing you for shooting their "innocent victim" family member.

If you are found guily, then you are open game to civil suits.

This applies to both Florida's stand your ground and castle doctrine laws. Remember, they are two different laws.
 
From his hospital bed the day after the shooting, Mendez admitted he was hanging out of the Jeep's window making derogatory statements toward Borden and that Araujo said he wanted to get Trejo because Trejo "would help them beat Borden up," according to police reports. Araujo went to get Trejo from an apartment, and walked back out wearing black gloves, Mendez said.

Despite some utter idiocy on Borden's part, the above quote exonerates him IMO and from what I know of the Florida law.

ETA: The gang bangers burnt his house down as retaliation. There should be a "Dead or Alive" bounty put out on such vermin.
 
ETA: The gang bangers burnt his house down as retaliation. There should be a "Dead or Alive" bounty put out on such vermin.
Though it may not be taking the high road, I quite agree.

Gangbanger punks left the scene to get more muscle then returned with the intent to do Borden harm. The two who are now dead will hopefully learn from this lesson and behave as civilized people in their next incarnation.
 
Thanks very much for the links joab. They are a great case of what NOT to do in a self-defense shooting. Based just on the news stories (and we all know how accurate that can be), it looks like he would have had a decent case for self-defense if he hadn't let his ego and his mouth get in the way. More importantly, he could have avoided the whole ordeal by just showing some halway decent judgment.

Minutes later, Araujo approached Borden in his Jeep and there was another brief verbal altercation, with one of the men warning Borden that they had "bats" for weapons. Borden kicked the Jeep, went into his home, and came back out armed, telling his friend to leave because "something bad" might happen, according to police reports.

That is going to be a problem for him. "Stand your ground" isn't the same as leave the scene, get a gun and come back.

Borden, 44, was asked why the passengers in the car deserved to get shot. "They were there," Borden told a Palm Beach County sheriff's detective. During a lengthy interview with detectives, Borden conceded there were things he could have done instead of shooting at the men who had threatened to harm his dogs outside his home in the Westgate neighborhood west of West Palm Beach. "I could have shot the tires out ... I could have jumped the fence," Borden said. "I could have jumped on the hood and over the fence."

If you can't explain why you felt an immediate threat of death or serious injury, you are probably better off exercising your right to remain silent.
 
Minutes later, Araujo approached Borden in his Jeep and there was another brief verbal altercation, with one of the men warning Borden that they had "bats" for weapons. Borden kicked the Jeep, went into his home, and came back out armed, telling his friend to leave because "something bad" might happen, according to police reports.

From this statement I would say Borden went out of his way to cause the extension of the encounter that ended up with him shooting them . He was already in the safety of his home but armed himself and went back outside to confront the 3 in the jeep .


EDIT : lol , beat me to it
 
Can't wait to see how this plays out!!!

Afterall, Jeep at 30+ MPH is no doubt a deadly weapon if used correctly:what:

I wonder though, how the whole "showing his gun and kicking the door" will be seen. If those punks came back with another friend, knowing the guy was armed, well, can we assume they were armed as well??? I mean, how dumb must you be to go unarmed against a dood who just 5 minutes ago showed you he's packing head:confused:
 
In my simplistic mind I'm going to have to side with the accused shooter. He was threatened and he warned the aggressors in the vehicle that he was armed and they still made an overt threatening move against him that one of them admitted could have been seen as a pending attack. Using the same standard, police officers don't hesitate to fire when the same thing happens to them, so I'll have to give the benefit of the doubt to the shooter. He did the same thing that any cop would do in the same situation.

The citizens of Florida know, understand and have been acclimated to this law since its inception, so such an action should not come as a surprise.
 
The truth is that the law doesnt really change much. As far as I know, a very small minority of prosecutors were playing the "you didnt fully retreat" game. For the most part, florida juries are very supportive when they beleive someone defended themselves and wasnt the aggressor. Prosecutors know better than to waste their time.

As for this case, I dont know. The guys who got shot sound like turds but this guy really went out of his way to get in trouble. Setting aside his loose lips, he really shouldnt have gone inside and then come back out. Even jurisidctions that dont require duty to retreat will look unfavorably on this sort of behavior because you are really trying to put yourself in a bad situation.
 
Man, do I know that area and that gang well. Believe me when I tell you that it is an area you do not want to be walking through at 1pm much less 3am. I worked for the SAO for a number of years and I know the prosecutor and defense attorney. Should be interesting to watch. Both can be bulldogs however I do believe the SAO will not aggressively go after this guy. More and more down here you will see a lot of citizens praising the 2nd ammendment and guys like the defendant because we are just fed up with this crap. Read the comments from readers on that PBPost link and you'll not see much sympathy for the gang bangers. Krisher knows it is a public office and the citizens hold the keys to his office.
I have had my run ins with the gangs down here and even had my life threatened a few times. The best thing you can do to survive a run in with them is to "stand your ground" and throw down when needed. They are the scum of the earth and have ruined PB County.
 
Ah so they were gang members and they burned his house down. I think he should get off, but I really want to know the backstory on this one.

Oh ok, theyre a mexican street gang that has somehow ended up in 2 florida counties. I wonder why the cops havent cracked down on them. I normally hate police brutality and strong arm tactics, but it is clearly called for here. These guys sound like a bunch of animals and they need to be dealt with harshly.
 
XDKingslayer
It's quite simple. If you are found not guilty (i.e. killed the person in self defence) then you are immune from civil lawsuits,
It appears it’s not that clear to the lawyers:
Public Defender Carey Haughwout argued during Wednesday's hearing that Borden is immune from criminal prosecution
Anybody know which one the Legislature claimed to be doing when they passed it?
 
That is going to be a problem for him. "Stand your ground" isn't the same as leave the scene, get a gun and come back.

I'm not an expert, though I have taken several CCW courses and intend to take more. Borden's actions go against EVERYTHING I learned. Basically, I was taught that if I ESCALATE the situation, I am in the wrong. Assuming the press report is at all accurate, I think Borden's retrieving the gun, and then kicking the door clearly falls into that category.

What sticks in my mind from one of the courses is a simple story: even if I am walking along the street with my wife, and some thug spits in my face and calls my wife a natty haired ho, or something similar, I should walk away. Only when the thug comes toward me, when I have attempted to move on, would I even draw. Its ironic, but I am now much more restrained than I would be if unarmed.

No sympathy whatsoever for the dead gangbangers, but I think Borden is in trouble. IMHO, everyone who packs should read Ayoob's book, "In the Gravest Extreme". Just my .02.
 
In my simplistic mind I'm going to have to side with the accused shooter. He was threatened and he warned the aggressors in the vehicle that he was armed and they still made an overt threatening move against him that one of them admitted could have been seen as a pending attack. Using the same standard, police officers don't hesitate to fire when the same thing happens to them, so I'll have to give the benefit of the doubt to the shooter. He did the same thing that any cop would do in the same situation.

Ummm , he went back into his house to get his gun . This wasn't a spur of the moment thing (if the article is factual about this one point) . He apparently needed to go "arm up" then put himself back in the situation. That's not exactly "standing your ground" . And telling a friend "something bad might happen" doesn't bode well either . He was already out of harms way but decided to go back out into the street. Sorry , but at that point , you reap what you sow .
 
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