The forgotton 32 auto

[Billy Shears]

Well, Grant Cunningham recently posted an article about the .380, which cites Greg Ellifritz' data (which someone else here mentioned).

http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/380-beat-9mm/

Here's what he had to say about it:

The best database of handgun performance I’ve yet seen comes from Greg Ellifritz at Active Response Training. His results, compiled from hundreds of actual shootings over many years, show that while the .380 doesn’t work quite as well as the 9mm, .40 S&W, or .45 ACP in its job of stopping attackers, it’s also not that far off.

In Ellifritz’s studies, the “major” calibers are pretty darned close to each other in terms of actual performance. Close enough, in fact, that they are in a statistical dead heat. The .380, on the other hand, is definitely not the performer that the bigger cartridges are. But the little .380 is still remarkably effective and a whole lot better than anything smaller. In fact, the difference between the .380 and the .40 S&W, to pick one at random, is less than the difference between the .380 and the .32 ACP.

Is the .380 half as good as the 9mm? If the data is accurate, it’s actually better than that.

Looking at Ellifritz' data directly between the .380 and .32 (http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/node/7866) you see that in most categories (number of one-shot stops, percentage of hits that were fatal, average number of rounds fired to stop an attack, etc.) the rounds are pretty close. But there is one category where the .380 comes out way, way ahead. This also happens to be the least desirable category to be a low performer in, IMHO.

32 (both .32 Long and .32 ACP)

# of people shot - 25
# of hits - 38
% of hits that were fatal - 21%
Average number of rounds until incapacitation - 1.52
% of people who were not incapacitated - 40%
One-shot-stop % - 40%
Accuracy (head and torso hits) - 78%
% actually incapacitated by one shot (torso or head hit) - 72%


.380 ACP

# of people shot - 85
# of hits - 150
% of hits that were fatal - 29%
Average number of rounds until incapacitation - 1.76
% of people who were not incapacitated - 16%
One-shot-stop % - 44%
Accuracy (head and torso hits) - 76%
% actually incapacitated by one shot (torso or head hit) - 62%

I seldom even carry a .380 these days. I can't see any reason why I would step down to a much weaker cartridge when I find a compact 9mm eminently controllable, and can use an equally controllable .380 for the few occasions when I need an even smaller gun.

 

[snooperman]

Thanks for the back-up as I have preaching about this data for some time. Ellifritz research is sound and real not contrived.

 

[Vodoun da Vinci]

I would appeal to the other .32 aficionados not to let this thread be derailed by Caliber Bullies. I have seen this happen over and over and over and will not participate in the "mine is bigger and better" contest. I have my data and my opinions and allow others to have theirs without contest.

Please, Gentlemen...do not engage the Bullies that are now sure to flock to this thread as they always do. We are having fun and learning, sharing, and other good things.

Just proceed as usual...nothing to see here. Move along...move along...

VooDoo

 

[snooperman]

If you like 32 caliber target pistols , the Benelli MP90 "World Cup" is a dandy along with the Walther GSP 32 semiauto pistol. The Swiss and Germans are far more into 32 caliber matches now than are Americans. They shoot a special wadcutter bullet for best accuracy.

 

[RetiredUSNChief]

"General principle"? Well at the Olympics for many years the 32 caliber was the king in competitiion, and still is in European matches. Yes at greater distances than they shoot I will agree the larger calibers hold the edge.

Uh huh. And might there be another reason why guns used in OLYMPIC shooting sports might be "king in competition" over others? Like, oh I dunno...maybe the fact that those guns are not the regular run-of-the-mill gun for whatever caliber, whether .32, .22LR, or any other caliber?

Pitting any gun which is specifically chosen for Olympic competition against any other off-the-shelf gun, regardless of caliber, is automatically starting off with an uneven playing field.

The common .32 caliber handgun, I daresay, was NOT what was being used in the Olympics any more than the common .22LR handgun is for today's Olympics. My AMT Automag II is a darned accurate .22 WMR...but no way can it compete against an Anschutz .22LR pistol used in the Olympics. Apples and oranges in comparison.

If you meant your comment in post #118 to read "Also, when it comes too accuracy, the larger caliber guns can not beat the Olympic 32 caliber handguns on the target range. Whether it is a revolver in 32 long or 32 ACP pistol.", then there would be a world of truth in that. However, the common .32 caliber pistol, like those used by various European police agencies of decades past, was very likely no more and no less accurate than any other common pistol (or revolver) in any caliber.

If you're making comparisons based on rapid fire accuracy, then smaller caliber handguns will tend to carry the day on this simply because of recoil management in re-aquiring the target sight. That's a no-brainer, and doesn't have anything to do with individual slow-fire accuracy of any given pistol.

I seriously doubt that the average, off-the-shelf .32 caliber pistol is any more or less accurate than any other comparable, average, off-the-shelf caliber pistol of comparable barrel length. (It would be unfair to pit a 3 inch .32 caliber pistol against an 8 inch fixed barrel opponent, for example.)


Of the pistols my wife and I own, I would take her new S&W .380 PPK/S against any non-Olympic grade, unmodified .32 caliber semiauto. Of the guns we own, that is the only one with a comparable barrel length (3.3 inches). All others have longer barrel lengths. (Which I would also happily use for comparison purposes, if you wish.) None are "match grade" or custom jobs and none have any aftermarket modifications (other than some sight paint on one of my pistols).


NOW, all that said:

I wouldn't mind owning a nice .32 pistol if I happened to run across one that I liked. However, it's not on my list-of-guns-to-get because .32 ammunition is not as commonly available as I would like. If it were, then such a pistol would be on that list and I'd be actively planning on getting one.

 

[Old Fuff]

I believe that if you look into the issue further you'll find that the cartridge used in Olympic Center Fire matches is the .32 S&W Long/Full-Wadcutter load usually associated with revolvers. However in this case (pardon the pun) the platform-of-choice is highly customized target pistols. Distance over which the course is fired is 25 meters. Machine rest test groups are generally .750 inches or less.

That said, .32 ACP/7.65mm Browning pistols were popular in some target matches in Europe as well as elsewhere. Also .25 ACP/6.35mm built on larger then vest pocket pistol platforms. In the right package both rounds are more accurate then most people think.

 

[Hurryin' Hoosier]

All I know is that I love my Česká Zbrojovka vz.70. I managed to pick one up which was made in 1974 but was absolutely "new old stock". Accurate as heck, low recoil, built like a tank, and a perfect fit for my pocket (in a Robert Mika pocket holster).

 

[Gun Master]

.32 Auto Thread

Agreed.

We have (or should have IMHO) come together to share knowledge (info) and ideas (thoughts) = broadening gun acumen for each individual. In the process, we (each) should be conducting ourselves in a respectful manner to "everyone" and their ideas, no matter the subject or our individual opinions.

In my humble (but very accurate) opinion, the ultimate goal of each thread, and of THR in general, should be "enjoyment" by all.

 

[Gun Master]

I would appeal to the other .32 aficionados not to let this thread be derailed by Caliber Bullies. I have seen this happen over and over and over and will not participate in the "mine is bigger and better" contest. I have my data and my opinions and allow others to have theirs without contest.

Please, Gentlemen...do not engage the Bullies that are now sure to flock to this thread as they always do. We are having fun and learning, sharing, and other good things.

Just proceed as usual...nothing to see here. Move along...move along...

VooDoo

See above post which is # 125.

 

[RetiredUSNChief]

My apologies for my part, gentlemen!

Anybody wanna go out and poke some holes in things weekend after next? I'm game to try a .32 if someone has one!

 

[larryh1108]

Where on the east coast are you?
You never know who is close to you!

 

[Vodoun da Vinci]

I'd let cha shoot mine anyday...

I'm a pusher of .32 ACP and not only like to shoot it and develop for it but try to keep as much interest as I can - the round has not been around all this time because it is not worth shooting.

I'm always having people checking me out at the range especially when my Wife and I are mentoring other couples to learn to protect themselves and to take it seriously. Our .32 Colts always draw a crowd or at least folks who find it very cool that we are shooting pistols that are pushing 100 years old.

And the targets have not a chance. People have opinions and a lot of it is based on what they "have heard" and a lot of what we hear is biased. People want the latest greatest and they also always wanna be where everyone is and do what everyone else does. I can't count the number of folks who got their eyes opened that 9mm is not the lowest caliber adequate for SD and that anyone who can't handle that amount of recoil is "stupid" uninformed, too lazy to practice more, or in denial that anything less is just metal masturbation.

.32 is just plain fun...like a .22 on steroids to some degree but not abusive as some teeny .380 pistols are. There is a place for .32 ACP and hopefully there will be for some time yet. I have enough brass, bullets and stuff to be shooting .32 for the nest 30 years if I live that long. .32 ACP pistols have history...from gangsters in the 20's and Generals in the 40' s and even guys like Wyatt Earp and John M. Browning himself shot and carried .32 ACP pistols.

Did you guys see this?

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2010/06/robert-farago/gun-review-1903-colt-automatic-pistol/

Some of the video stuff is cool and I really like the review. I don't agree with everything TTAG reviews but I thought this review of a classic pistol and the caliber it shoots as classic and worthwhile. I wanna invite Destinee (as in FateofDestinee) to review a .32 ACP pistol. Maybe a Pico in .32 when they show up.

http://www.youtube.com/user/FateofDestinee

VooDoo

 

[RetiredUSNChief]

I call upstate SC home, but I work in the Hampton Roads, VA area.

One upshot of this is I can check out a TON of stores for ammo between SC and VA!

 

[Hurryin' Hoosier]

I might get to go to the range again sometime between now and the 4th of July. Al Gore's "global warming" is about to wear me - and the furnace - out!

 

[snooperman]

Old Fuff, thanks for the extra info on target 32ACP matches. My book on target pistols also supports your info as well on the use of the 32 ACP and 32 long in European matches. In Switzerland and Germany , I think they are still using the wadcutter bullet in their matches today.

 

[snooperman]

I would like a Glock 42 size gun with a double stack magazine in 32 ACP. I always like it when my brother comes over to shoot at my place with his Browning 32. What a fun gun that is to shoot.

 

[Old Fuff]

I think they are still using the wadcutter bullet in their matches today.

In .32 S&W Long cartridges, yes. In 7.65mm (.32) pistols regular ball ammunition is more likely the rule. The reason for all this is that pistols chambered in their version of the .32 ACP is by European standards well distributed, and the authorities are more likely to issue the necessary licensing if you put down "target shooting" for a reason.

Also the mid to large sized pistols are often very accurate, and one can go home at the end of the day and not have their hand swollen to 3 times regular size by pounding recoil.

And while these guns are seldom called on to provide self-defense duty, it would seem that European and other goblins around the world haven’t heard that it’s inadequate and thus do not invite being shot at.

 

[bikerdoc]

Grandpa carried a 32 all day, every day and stuck it under his pillow at night. He was good with it and king of shot placement at all the informal family shoots. Really embarrassed my 1911 toting uncles.

 

[Vodoun da Vinci]

Yeah...the Colt 1903 in the pix I posted is 96 years old and has traveled in the pocket and around the farm with 3 generations of my inlaws kin. 3 generations have been served by this gun in this caliber. When I inherited it, it came with quite a few partial boxes of .32 ammunition and at least one box was so old it was falling apart. Still, all the rounds in it went bang the first time I tested it.

And it's not like the gun was never shot or treated as a Safe Queen as you can tell by the picture. This gun has been used pretty hard. It's still a "go to" gun in my house now and sits in a hidden spot near a door where it can be used if needed as a BUG or slipped into a pocket when stuff goes bump in the night. The trusty 12 gauge is the primary home defense weapon and backed by 9mm Beretta Storm and Glock 26 but this gun, 96 years old and proven in that role, still stands ready and is fully functional and accurate.

I hope I can fulfill my mission when I'm 96.

VooDoo

 

[Master Blaster]

I can assure you that rim lock is no myth. I have had rim lock twice in a kel tec with strong mag. springs. I've never tried hp in my other .32's so I can't comment, but I think it's possible with any .32 with a shorter bullet.

[/QUOTE]


Same here I experienced it with my p32 also in practice sessions with jhp ammo, and yes I carefully loaded the magazines keeping one rim in front of the previous one. Rim lock on a semirimmed cartridge is a real reliability issue with .32acp.

 

[SharpsDressedMan]

I thought we discussed in another thread that rimlock seemed to happen frequently in the Kel-Tec, but rarely happened in other .32 guns. Something to do with the magazines?

 

[Deltaboy1984]

The 1903 Colt needs to be made again by someone.

 

[toivo]

The 1903 Colt needs to be made again by someone.

I think that has been discussed before some months back. The consensus was that it's such a labor-intensive design to produce that the price would be prohibitively high, especially for a gun that has a limited audience to begin with.

Don't get me wrong -- I have one and I love it. But I think modern-day .32 lovers will either have to find an oldie or make do with a Bersa or a CZ.

 

[torqem]

dunno where he gets his numbers. .32 silvertip has a whole 80 ft lbs from a Seecamp.I tend to agree, tho, that the 380 is too feeble, by a pretty large stretch.

 

[Vodoun da Vinci]

The 1903 Colt needs to be made again by someone.

...Don't get me started on that.

I wanna make a run of Model M's in stainless. Working on it but don't hold yer breath. The hangup is not making the parts....there is a machine shop in the family and a number of engineers and we have it all figured out. The problem is in licensing the "Intellectual Property" of the venture because we are convinced that the minute we invest in making 250 pistols some major manufacturer will figure out that it's a lucrative possibility and gear up and start producing them for a fraction of the price and kill the possibility of recovering start up costs.

Maybe even Colt...quite possibly someone like Springfield Armory or a custom maker of 1911's would figure out that if they can make 1911 clones with a tweak here and there making Model M's would be a tweak of the wrist.

The patents, like the 1911, are years expired. Anyone with the will and machinery to do it could do it tomorrow. It's just that no one has thought of it....when I asked about it with some custom makers they said it'd be too expensive to make a one off and that there wouldn't be any demand or enough to recover tooling up. They said the same thing about a Glock .380 single stack.

No one will buy that....Now that there is concealed carry in all sates there are gonna be millions of folks who want to carry but cannot handle/hide larger pistols in larger calibers. A modern Model M in stainless or even with a polymer frame would sell thousands of copies in my opinion.

VooDoo