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The Galil rifle: why the Israeli don't use it?

Discussion in 'Rifle Country' started by Alexey931, Aug 11, 2007.

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  1. Alexey931

    Alexey931 Member

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    Never seen on TV an Israeli soldier with anything but M16. Why? They never meant the Galil rifle for domestic use?

    Best regards, Alexey
     
  2. Number 6

    Number 6 Member

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    They can get M16s from the US for a lot less money than producing and making the Galils themselves, so they use M16 variants instead. The Galils are also heavier and not as customizable so they have been regulated to support units.
     
  3. Expertowgunner

    Expertowgunner Member

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    Like number 6 said, the U.S. sold their m16 (and the variants such as the m4) much "Cheaper" than the cost of producing the galil. I do have a question though, i thought the ak was one of the cheapest guns to build in the world and the galil is just a variation of it. Anyway this is what ive always been told, but the production of the tavor has been succesful and from what ive read is that it will replace all of the worn m16s over time. countries like india have some interest in this rifle as it is supposed to replace their ak copy cat the INSAS (funny that a hebrew gun will be the standard arm of a mainly a hindu/buddhist nation). Tavor looks like a good gun too and fairly cheap (1000 dollars compared to 2,500 for the austrian aug a3)
     
  4. HorseSoldier

    HorseSoldier Member

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    Galil was adopted right before the start of the 73 War, when Israel got a bunch of M16s delivered as emergency military aid. In a head to head comparison, the AR-15 type weapons just out performed the Galil -- which is heavier but will run when really dirty. Since IDF soldiers clean their weapons, etc., the AK clone angle is not so good. As already noted by the previous poster, the Galil got pushed out of shooter type units like infantry and special operations guys to support units and people who needed a rugged, treat-it-bad-and-neglect-it kind of personal defense weapon (i.e. tank crews).

    If that was the only reason, it would not explain why the guys who are specifically expected to earn their pay with a long gun are the guys who use the M16, while the guys who need something to possibly defend themselves while doing more important work use the Galil.
     
  5. El Tejon

    El Tejon Member

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    Because tacticool does not equate to combat effective.

    American shooters drool over them, but they only have to carry them from their car to the firing line. And if you've seen the food blisters on American shooters then you know that weight is not a concern to them.;)
     
  6. WeedWhacker

    WeedWhacker Member

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    I'd love to see a source for this.
     
  7. MaterDei

    MaterDei Member

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    I suspect that the US gives them M-16s for free.
     
  8. jonnyc

    jonnyc Member

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    WeedWhacker is correct! The M16 variants in IDF service never "just out performed the Galil". Until the late 1980s, the Galil was the primary issue weapon and second-line units got the M16s. US Foreign Military Credits, which Israel started getting more of in the early 1990s, must primarily be spent in the US, so the Galils got pushed aside for the cheaper M16s.
    I had an M16 during my IDF basic, and it jammed like a fool in the desert but was relatively easier to run and roll with. Later I had a Glilon (short Galil) and a Mag58, and I was much happier.
     
  9. MudPuppy

    MudPuppy Member

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    A stamped AK variant it probably one of the cheaper type of rifles that can be made. A galil is a milled type and requires much more expensive mfg equipment and I'd expect the people making them would require more training (a machinist vs a guy that can operate a press?)

    From http://world.guns.ru/assault/as23-e.htm:
    Seems like its all about the money...
     
  10. DMK

    DMK Member

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    Did Israel field both 7.62x51 and 5.56 versions of the Galil?

    Was there ever a version chambered in 7.62x39?
     
  11. amprecon

    amprecon Member

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    What is it with the U.S. gov't giving away automatic weapons to foreigners and restricting them to it's own citizens? We have to go through h*ll & high water just to get a 1940's "relic" like the CMP Garand. What are they skeered of........?
     
  12. Browning

    Browning Member

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    From what I understand they don't pay anything at all for the M-16's that they recieve from the US.

    They're just given them as military aid.

    Even if they could produce Galils for next to nothing, they still would not be free.

    Free is the cheapest choice of all.

    The decision was based on economics, what was better didn't have much to do with it.

    Although there's nothing wrong with the M-16 platform.

    According to these articles they'll be going to something else shortly anyway (The Tavor).

    The Galils that Israel's defense industry produced were exported and sold for cash to help their economy (To countries like South Africa and Columbia).

    http://www.answers.com/topic/israel-united-states-military-relations

    http://www.israeli-weapons.com/weapons/small_arms/tavor/Tavor.html

    http://www.udnik.area.co.il/

    http://www.defensetech.org/archives/003408.html
     
  13. Caimlas

    Caimlas Member

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    Took me a second to realize what you were talking about there, but once I got it you almost made me spray coffee...
     
  14. Evil Monkey

    Evil Monkey member

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    I think besides getting M16's for free, the Galil is HEAVY. Soldiers don't like heavy.
     
  15. Landlocked Pirate

    Landlocked Pirate Member

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    According to a History Channel special on Israeli weapons that I saw a while back, the weight of the Galil is the main reason for its lack of use by infantry soldiers.
     
  16. Coronach

    Coronach Moderator Emeritus

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    I have heard greater weight, inferior ergonomics/handling, greater weight, greater cost, greater weight, inferior modularity, greater weight and greater weight as reasons why it was not more popular in IDF service.
    Funniest thing I've read all day!

    Yeah, the Galil strikes me as sort of the M14 of the IDF. A good rifle, even a great one, but superceded by the M16 for a number of reasons that are not entirely based upon relative merits to the end-user. I think they're cool. I would not feel poorly armed if I was issued one, but I'd probably rather have a M16 or M4 in modern combat (says I, from the comfort of Camp Couch, nursing my food blister).

    Mike
     
  17. PercyShelley

    PercyShelley Member

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    I've heard from many people who own them that galils are heavy. What I want to know is whether they're any heavier than other .223 AK variants.
     
  18. Medusa

    Medusa Member

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    This baby runs at 7.3 kg, unloaded. With loaded 20 rnd mag it's a tad heavier. At least the stock is foldable.

    [​IMG]
     
  19. Frightener 88

    Frightener 88 Member

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    how does the galil fair in accuracy compared to the m16/m4 variants?
     
  20. HorseSoldier

    HorseSoldier Member

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    If a stamped receiver AK, then yes. If a milled receiver, then possibly (the Galil stock is pretty solid, and I'm pretty sure many of the AK folder stock options are a bit lighter).

    Real .mil SARs get the job done out to 200 meters easily, personally haven't fired them further than that. Recoil is more pronounced than on an AR type rifle, and a bit surprising for 5.56mm, but still not a big deal.

    If it is not the case, then someone please explain to me why Israeli shooters carry M16s and M4s while the Galil only remains on the books as a defensive carbine for tank crews and the like. If the Galil were a superior service rifle, even if the IDF could get M16s/M4s cheap or free, then why not give the shooters Galils and the tankers M4s?

    As far as I can tell, having spent some quality time with both the M16/M4 and Galil SARs, it's (as has been suggested) weight and cruddy ergonomics. Galil is much harder to run at speed than an AR -- improves on the AK by adding a left side selector/safety lever, but it's installed backwards. Going hot requires a pretty anatomically impossible backwards thumb sweep with strength to overcome the standard right side AK selector lever. Mag changes are slower as well. The ambidextrous cocking lever is a good idea until you rip your hand open on the real sight post racking the bolt fast, then maybe it's not so ideal.

    Much better than a normal AK, but still burdened by the flaws of the parent weapon system.
     
  21. TOU

    TOU Member

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    Here is something that blows my mind about the Tavor's the Canadians (with their highly restrictive gun laws) can get them and the VZ-58's along with Norinco & PolyTech M-14's and we don't seem to be able to.

    http://www.canadaammo.com/
     
  22. Bartholomew Roberts

    Bartholomew Roberts Moderator Emeritus

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    The reason L&P is closed is not so it can spill out into the rest of the board; but so we can determine what needs to be done to make it part of THRs mission instead of a distraction. I've deleted several posts that have absolutely nothing to do with Galils or Israeli use of them. If you notice your post missing, then please consider this a warning to keep the L&P content out of the Rifle Forum.
     
  23. GunTech

    GunTech Member

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    The Israelis don't get their M16 for free. The way it works, the Israelis get military aid from the US and are obligated to spend a certain percentage on US made products. So basically we give military aid to the Israelis which they must spend buying US military products, so the M16 is basically highly subsidized by the US taxpayer. The result is the same. The M16 comes in very cheap compared to the Galil. Since the large scale purchase of M16 and M4, the Galil is mainly relegated to armored troops and reserve usints. Most are now being surplussed out - which is why Galil kits are available and Centry and othjers are able to build rifles from Galil parts.

    I just bought a CAI Golani (Galil) and it is a very nice weapon - and not at all as heavy as expected despite the machined steel receiver. My 18 inch bbl tips the scale at about 9 pounds, pretty close to the current M16 with it's veavier barrel. It's not as flexible as the M16 with the rail system, but it does have a dovetail on the left side of the reciever for mounting optics. I don;t expect irons to be too great since the rear sight is mounted on the top cover, which has a bit of play in it.

    I suspect politics and ecomnomics had more to do with the decline of the Galil rather than utility. The Galil came about after Israels experience with the FAL and captured AKs. The decided the AK was a superior design for a combat rifle.

    I doubt the Galil is anywhere near as accurate as the M16, but I'm betting it far more reiable with less than regular maintenance. Since the Israeli troops tend to be very highly trained and take care of their equipment, reliability is probably not an issue.
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2007
  24. Alexey931

    Alexey931 Member

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    In the face of the incoming fire reliability is always the topmost issue. All the more so in the dusty environment...
     
  25. HorseSoldier

    HorseSoldier Member

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    If that were true, we'd all still be carrying bolt guns. In the face of incoming fire, the ability to return overwhelming fire is the most important issue. That's why all modern armies accept inherently less reliable weapons (select fire assault rifles) as the standard. Ten guys with Moisin-Nagants or SMLEs will never have a stoppage, but can't match the firepower of ten guys with assault rifles, even if five of them are jammed up solid.
     
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