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The Game Design Industry and Firearms

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by sco, Aug 15, 2008.

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  1. sco

    sco Member

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    Hello. My name is Scott and I will admit that I do not have quite as much experience with firearms as the rest of you. The extent of my exposure was limited to shooting 44 caliber rifles at my local gun-club with my dad once or twice a year just before I moved away to college.
    I am now a passionate game design student here in sunny Tempe Arizona at the University of Advancing Technology. I have heard a lot of my friends who are immersed in the firearm culture that us Game Designers give you guys a bad rap and are horribly inaccurate when it comes to firearms in games. As a student of game design (yes, that’s actually what my Bachelors Degree will say in about 2 years) I was interested in an archived topic that you guys had a while back. I read a few of your topics and I can see you are far more knowledgeable and passionate about firearms than most of the Designers and 3D Modelers here at my college.

    I would value the opinions of the ladies and gentlemen on this site. If you could answer a few questions for me, I would appreciate it:

    1) How do you see the game design industry depictions/uses of firearms in games?

    2) How visually accuracy are firearms used in games? (Please do not refer to sci-fi guns as they are doubtfully intended to resemble a realistic firearm.)

    3) What would you say the most glaring problem in regards to firearms are in games?

    4) What would you like to see implemented in the future of games in regards to firearms and the culture surrounding them?

    5) Anything else that comes to mind. I’d love to hear it.

    O ya. If you have any questions you would like to ask me, I'd be more than happy to answer them. :)
     
  2. esmith

    esmith Member

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    1. I think its kind of hit and miss with some games. Call of Duty 4 is probably one of the most accurate gun depicting game out there. You can shoot through walls and there isn't always an invincible wall protecting you behind every object. Unlike say Gears of War where a cardboard box will stop the toughest of weaponry.

    2. A lot of the Call of Duty games make the guns look pretty close to what they were/are. There have been a few mistakes i have seen though. In COD 3 the mauser rifle you use is always in the bolt-lock safety position, however the gun can be used as normal. This is also hit or miss according to what game were talking about.

    3. Balistics. I love how in the Half life series the revolver can shoot just like a rifle out to the end of the universe. None of the projectiles in that game have any drop to them, except the crossbow i believe. This problem is involved with many games besides Half Life.

    Granted, you can't make everything perfect, as it would kill the game, but im just pointing out what is inaccurate.

    4. I don't really know to be honest.
     
  3. pdowg881

    pdowg881 Member

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    My biggest issue is sound. Most games all have guns that aren;t lous enough. Most also lack the sonic boom along with the sound of the gun firing.
     
  4. Cmdr. Gravez0r

    Cmdr. Gravez0r Member

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    Esmith, your signature is incorrectly transcribed. Should read "Die waffe, lecht an" (Rough trans "weapons ready) or something similar. Common mistake.

    Speaking of video games.

    *plays "Hell March" from Red Alert*
     
  5. esmith

    esmith Member

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    Hahaah, i was waiting for someone to catch that one. Ha, i can't believe someone else here is an oldtime red alert player.

    As for that, i respectfully disagree, it isn't Die Waffen Legt An, if you listen to Hell March 2 from Red Alert 2 it sounds a lot more like my sig line.

    Hell March is a kick ass song though.
     
  6. I LIKE IT!

    I LIKE IT! Member

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    1) Fun though usually inaccurate

    2) Close enough though many still skip on details

    3) Sound, climb, mag cap, reloading, false representation of balistic characteristics

    4) It doesn't matter it's just a game(if it's fun it will sell)

    5) Nope, but I did stay at a holiday inn last night:D
     
  7. sco

    sco Member

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    @ esmith
    Thanks for your input! Ballistics are very hard to code properly because even the most powerful physics engine doesn't render the bullet like it should. It doesn't actually have "mass" in most cases, though in same games they do. As systems get more advanced, things like more accurate ballistics and destructible environments will become more present. I know a few games that have ballistics though some players actually ask for the ability to turn them on/off. Thanks for your input

    @ pdowg881
    Good point. A lot of games do not accurately portray the level of sound produced by a firearm. However it is entertainment and we can't deafen them, but the idea has been bounced around. Thanks for your 2 cents!
     
  8. bwavec

    bwavec Member

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    Shot placement and ballistic damage is a peeve of mine.

    In early versions of "Ghost Recon", I could hit a guy in the head with .50 Barrett and he is still going. A leg shot with the same weapon puts the guy down. Go figure. The head shot should have taken the head clean off his shoulders.

    Also the .50 did not have more punch at long range. It worked about as well as a 5.56........not exactly realistic ballistics.



    :cuss:
     
  9. sco

    sco Member

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    @ I LIKE IT!
    Fun's what is important right?

    @ bwavec
    Shot placement always annoys me. The standard method of making a model and wireframeing it is not very conductive to shot placement thought. However, I've had a few sneek peeks at some of the new stuff and you should be happy soon. (Vest that the player wears and you can feel where you got shot.)
     
  10. Gunnerpalace

    Gunnerpalace Member

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    I'm doing that right now, M107 the best weapon in the game.
     
  11. Gunnerpalace

    Gunnerpalace Member

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  12. RtHG77

    RtHG77 Member

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    1.) Like stated above, hit or miss. Some games, like Ghost Recon that are geared towards realism tend to depict guns accurately (with some concessions for game play). On the other hand, you have games like GTA 4 where the character can lug several thousand rounds of ammunition for his half dozen pistols, long guns, and rocket launchers. It really depends on what kind of game you want to play; military simulation or shoot-em-up.

    2.) It varies, I've seen some mil-sims that have gun-shaped blocks and GTA-style games where you can see the manufacturers mark on the receiver. I think it depends more on the platform you're playing on (PC v. Cellphone) and the game developer.

    3.) No glaring problems that you can't attribute to adjusting for game play. I've noticed some nitpicky stuff, like being able to reload a LAW launcher, or 200 round drums for the Thompson M1928. :rolleyes:

    4.) I don't really know; you can't really portray shooting a gun in a game unless its one of the military's million-dollar simulators (and it would be a stretch to call that a game).
     
  13. Hoppy590

    Hoppy590 Member

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    poor damage modifiers compared to real weapons.

    games are either cant hit crap or pinpoint accurate while moving.

    Red Orchestra is cool with its weapon details

    added

    as others said. you need to know how to operate the weapons in the game.
    AK's. AR's etc do not cock on the left hand side, nor do they eject on that side. an AK does not load the same as an AR. an FAL handle doesnt reciprocate,

    incliude an iron site mode you can move effectively with, not just shoot from the hips cross hairs
     
  14. Sylvan-Forge

    Sylvan-Forge Member

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    Greetings Scott,

    1st off, let me welcome you to the THR .. Welcome!
    2nd, let me say "bravo" for seeking input.
    3rd, a lot of what I'm gonna say is likely not directly involved in your job descript, but it could be one day, or maybe you have some input above and beyond.. anyway..

    1) I'm more concerned with the usage rather than the depiction. Why exactly is the gamer shooting avatars that represent a human life form? Whos the good guys, whos the bad guys and who are we really working/shooting for?
    Is this a recruiting game? What's being sold? What are the underlying messages? Does this help or hurt our 2nd amendment?
    Don't worry, I'm not going to get onto the whole "violent games are from the debil" kick, as it is ultimately the parents responsibility to vette media reaching their children, but it would be nice if the parents (esp. the ever so common single parent) could get a little help and have some enforcement on the front end .. enforcement of the age-restricted content at the retail counter. It would also be nice if parents had a selection of helpful and easy to use websites that give a synopsis of game content. Of course the last two would be outside of the industry purview, and probably outside the scope of your question.

    2) The more visually accurate, the better! As long as the rendering doesn't slow down gameplay of course.

    3) When holding the weapon at low-ready, and bringing it up for a shot, the POV usually renders the weapon looking like it's several degrees off from point of aim. And unrealistic ballistics, as mentioned.

    4) See 1) Keep the stuff for kids honorable! Keep the "Ill" culture stuff for adults and market it thusly. I don't want to see an ad for "gangster land USA" run during morning cartoons or bannered at a kids website. (Don't really want to see it at all). No sneaky advertising schemes.. You get the idea ..

    5) Red Dawn, Invasion USA, Independence day. War of the Worlds. Regular folks wake up and find they are being invaded! Get some firepower and get to work!

    .
     
  15. RavenVT100

    RavenVT100 Member

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    Armed Assault is probably further along the realism spectrum than most other games. Several militaries (including the USMC) use its military simulation counterpart, VBS2, as a training aid.

    ArmA is a lot of fun, particularly in a multiplayer, cooperative environment. It makes COD4 look like an arcade game. It does feature ballistics, sound occlusion, realistic sound delay based on distance, supersonic cracks, and other very cool details that you wouldn't expect to see in a video game. And it's reasonably priced. Anyone who is a firearms nerd and likes military themed games would do well to check it out.
    Physics algorithms used in real time simulation are going to make concessions to account for performance, but it's certainly doable. Physics models are just models after all; there's no way to duplicate real life using numerical methods. A close approximation is all you may need for any given game.

    Most reloaders are familiar with ballistics software which takes into account not only the mass of the bullet, but its ballistic coefficient and atmospheric conditions as well. Using similar methods suited to real-time simulation is not much further up the technology curve; a good example of this are flight simulators. X-Plane, for instance, uses FEM for its simulation if I'm not mistaken. You don't need to go anywhere near that level of complexity to perform a basic simulation of a ballistic trajectory--even in real time in a distributed environment.
     
  16. hankdatank1362

    hankdatank1362 Member

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    One of my all-time favorites was BLACK for my XBox. 1st oerson shooter, very little story, mostly straight gun porn.

    Bads: sound was a little off, mags were twice standard capacity, and every weapon was mirrored so the ejection ports would be on the left side. (I guess being able to see the shells eject takes coolness precedence.)
     
  17. siglite

    siglite Member

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    Hmm... one of the best I've seen as far as weapons handling realism is True Combat Elite. The sight pictures are dead on. But there's a lot of environmental/handling stuff that game designers miss.

    1. Firing without hearing protection. The gun should stay plenty loud after the first shot. But after that, all other sounds should be muffled.

    2. Aiming/firing on the move. Even the most realistic games don't mimic the muzzle movement that occurs with each step. Yes, some of us can move very smoothly, and keep a muzzle fairly flat while we move. But there's definite muzzle/sight-picture movement.

    In general, Call of Duty 4 gets things pretty good. As do the rainbow series games. Those are kind of my benchmark.
     
  18. exar

    exar Member

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    Quite accurate, actually. I believe this will improve over time. But I'm a little older and remember my dad (back home in Knoxville) bringing home an Atari and I was hooked from then on in '84. MOH: Airborne is an excellent example of accuracy. It's not 100% perfect but it's close, and it is a game, so I most certainly allow concessions depending on what the game play is trying to achieve. BF:Bad Company, for example, has a gun (if I remember correctly some kind of smaller M4 variant:eek:) that is carried right handed, has a ejection port on the left that you can clearly see, and ejects to the right. The port never opens or does anything.



    Beginning with BF:1942, guns have been looking great. I really enjoy the mods and new games like BF:Vietnam and the rest of the series. Those guns set the standard, IMO. COD is another one consistently improving. OH NO!!:what: I almost forgot. Counter Strike was one of the first ones that I took one look at and was like "Wow, that gun really looks and acts like the real thing". You could still play it over dial-up back then. Honestly, after examining some firearms that were in CS throughout the next decade, I have purchased a Sig P228, Sig 556, Bushmaster M-4, Remington 700 (don't remember if that was in CS) Remington 870. However, those are just fine guns that happened to be in the game. I don't have that kind of money to blow on a crappy gun just because it's in a game:rolleyes:. I certainly don't own an Uzi or Mac-10:rolleyes:.


    Ballistics. I do understand that it would require an enormous amount of processor and memory power to achieve this on any kind of BF scale.

    The effect of ammo is sometimes less than enthusing. I mean, come on, a .30-06 would blow a mans leg off at the knee or mangle it so bad it will come off. Just hit him twice in the ankle and he's dead:rolleyes:.

    Quite simply, the most glaring problems are just too much power use and time consuming to probably be feasible for a good while. For now. At this rate, CPU's will be providing all our wishes here in just a decade or less.:D:D


    Just keep chugging out those WWII games and throw in some modern combat, as well. Just crank up the realism as high as it can be. Blood and sound, light. Utilize the fact that gamers will have surround sound, as it's comparatively cheap, and pound that bass for the blast of a rifle or thud of artillery and explosions. Some WWI games with trench warfare, if done properly, is a long awaited treasure to us gaming/history buffs.
     
  19. brigadier

    brigadier Member

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    My first attempt at a profession was to be a scribe. I new how to create a 3-D story on paper but not how to sell it, so I failed at that. I have later attempted to push for some video game ideas but also haven't been able to make some headway and intend to push it with my own $ if I can ever afford it.

    Likewise, the very subjects you are interested in have been a major interest for me and I have put allot of thought and work in to it.

    First off, what I think we lack most isn't so much in graphics but in the interaction. We are doing a pretty decent job of making guns look and work like they really do in real life. The problem is that we haven't seen many engines that allow the player to really use a gun in a game as they would in real life from a psychological perspective.
    I myself spent 2 years working on a way to do exactly that (on paper) which I believe I was very successful at and to be frank, I don't see the video game industry getting it figured out any time soon as the necessary methods to give of a realistic psychological affects are a full charge in a different direction then today's video game designers are going in.

    I don't really encourage such a thing for a typical blood and guts game but if you want to do something new and special that will get peoples attention, then try a game where the affects of guns are realistic. For instance, .45ACP = gaging if shot in the chest, bleeding out the head if shot in the head, .308 = falls like a sack of potatoes if shot in the chest, pile of pink scrambled eggs on the shoulders if shot in the head etc.

    If you guys are SERIOUS about making something great that will actually work, I'll be happy to throw my design at you. I don't want any $ for it but I WILL make sure (legally) that you can't pervert it as it's a sacred story, not just a typical game plot.

    It has some similarities to GTA and Oblivion but it's set in the real world and is a highly in depth, highly realistic story about the underground in WW III.

    BTW.

    To give you one of my own trade secrets (not really a secret, but never been asked about it either) is to use a system sort of like Character Creation in Soul Caliber III and IV but in customizing weapons in stead of people so that you can, in the game, strip your gun down to a frame or receiver and rebuild it with acquired parts and accessories and hire smiths to enhance certain features such as stability, accuracy, corodability/refinishing etc. and in ways that will actually make a difference in game play.
    I'd almost bet money that some of the gun enthusiasts reading this posts are drooling over what I just said.
     
  20. jerkface11

    jerkface11 Member

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    The rate of fire for SMG's and Assault rifles always seems way too low. It really shouldn't take several seconds to empty the mag on an MP5 or an M16.
     
  21. sco

    sco Member

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    Thank you all for your valuable input! I liked Sylvan-Forge in particular. I agreed very much with his response to number 1. It was closer to the core of what I was asking.
    I've also had an issue with children being exposed to games of a higher content rating than they properly should be via advertising. Unfortunately we have very little input on advertisement and I when I see banners of massacres on PG-13 rated sites it makes me more than a little... :banghead:

    @brigadier
    Keep trying! Just remember (as I'm sure you know) no one is just an idea guy! Its what one of my teachers in my Major drilled into our heads. You need 5 skills if you want to be able to use two of them!


    Ps: I'm aware your degree really only counts for your first job. After that its more of what you've done and the experience you gained. I worked before I went to school.
     
  22. Regolith

    Regolith Member

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    1) How do you see the game design industry depictions/uses of firearms in games?

    Depending on the game, it ranges from horribly inaccurate to close, but not quite. More on this later.

    2) How visually accuracy are firearms used in games? (Please do not refer to sci-fi guns as they are doubtfully intended to resemble a realistic firearm.)

    Most games do a relatively decent job at depicting real-world firearms as they are. After all, it's pretty damn easy to create a realistic 3d model when you can download the specs for most popular firearm models right off the web.

    3) What would you say the most glaring problem in regards to firearms are in games?

    This gets complicated, because it varies from game to game. The biggest issues lie in ballistics, in that there is none in many games, including Call of Duty 4. About the only games that get close are the various Delta Force games. They are probably the most realistic when it comes to anything relating to firearms except for penetration issues. Call of Duty 4 gets really close in terms of aesthetics and the ability to shoot through walls/objects (although not quite; sometimes rounds penetrate where they shouldn't, and sometimes they don't penetrate where they should), but there are no ballistics.

    The other big problem CoD4 has is that the stats on the firearms aren't realistically done. For instance in this game an AK74u, which fires a round that produces roughly 1,316 ft/lbs of energy in real life, produces almost as much "damage" in-game as the Barrett M82A1, which is chambered in a round that can develop as much as 14,895 ft/lbs of energy in real life. This is nowhere near realistic.

    Now, I understand that that was probably done in order to balance out the various firearms, but it is ridiculous if you're trying to make the game as realistic as possible.

    4) What would you like to see implemented in the future of games in regards to firearms and the culture surrounding them?

    Much more realism. The game producers should at the very least do some minimum research about the guns they are putting in the game, and what they (and the rounds they fire) are capable of. Hell, even Wikipedia has enough information to use as a starting point. They could probably also hire a military weapons expert to advise on weapons usage. Hell, some video games these days have bigger budgets than movies; hiring advisers should be well within their budget capabilities.
     
  23. Cosmoline

    Cosmoline Member

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    1) Most of the game firearms I've seen have owed a lot more to comic books than real life. There are many examples, from the double barrel pump action shotgun of Doom to the standard pump in HL1 you could somehow fire two barrels with.

    2) They're getting better, gradually. I've noticed some slow improvements but with few exceptions the realism ends with the skin of the model. The firearm will look generally realistic, but its capacity will be wrong or it will be a strange mirror image of its real self.

    3) The lack of bullet drop, the wild variations in power, and the outrageous ease of aiming. The ABSURD amount of arms and ammo one man can carry.

    4) The suspense and thrill of many games could be greatly improved with increased realism. Limit the capacity, force deliberate reloads. Limit the amount that can be carried and force the player to choose.

    5) The very best game I've played is Red Orchestra, an Ostfront simulation that seems to be more popular in Europe than stateside. That game is the closest I've ever seen in any game to actually firing the weapons in question. My experience with a Mosin translated directly to the game. They even have iron sights! The characters also don't get to carry thousands of pounds of junk.
     
  24. Monkeybear

    Monkeybear Member

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    1. Shotguns. They should be effective much further out then most games let them be. Some games seem to make them completely useless past 10-15 feet. Another thing is that a lot of games make pumping the shotgun take way too long. Also the animation always has the shooter take the shotgun off target hold it diagonally to pump it. Its very easy to pump quickly while the gun is aimed.

    2.Pistols. Make the handguns usable by giving them excellent, easy to use sights so the player can use good shot placement and not by making them more powerful than the rifles or submachine guns.

    3.Knives. Research the "21 foot rule". I would like to see the ability to use knives effectively in video games while sprinting. I think a fast un-wieldy gears-of-war-sprint that ends in either a 1 hit kill for your or your enemy would make a nice balanced use of the 21 foot rule in video games.

    4.Weight. The more ammo and guns you carry the slower you can move.

    5.Magazines. If I have 70 rounds of ammo and I change mags in game the guy on-screen will rip out the mag with 10 rounds, throw it on the ground, replace it with another fresh magazine and I will still have 70 rounds of ammo. If you throw it on the ground you lose it.
     
  25. akodo

    akodo Member

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    I suspect you mean 22 caliber rifles

    1) How do you see the game design industry depictions/uses of firearms in games?

    Strongly innacurate

    2) How visually accuracy are firearms used in games? (Please do not refer to sci-fi guns as they are doubtfully intended to resemble a realistic firearm.)
    most models are quite correct as far as the details, sometimes being a mirror image of reality, when the model is static. However, often the model is incorrect as far as how the gun acts. I have seen the forward assist on an AR-15 (M-16) treated as some sort of full-auto/semi-auto switch, and similar issues

    3) What would you say the most glaring problem in regards to firearms are in games?

    A. Failure to understand that it is the cartridge, not the firearm itself, that determines the power. Possibly a short barrel would make a minor amount of difference. In general I am refering to different types of 9mm handguns, or different types of 9mm SMGs or different types of 5.56 assualt rifles doing different amounts of damage simply because one is newer. My example may be a bit outdated, but look at FarCry, the M4 carbine you start out with is much less powerful than the G36 you get later, even though they are both firing the same exact ammo. The M4s shorter barrel will impact that a tiny amount, but not really. The OICW has an even shorter barrel than the M4, which would be even less efficient at harnessing all the power generated by the gunpowder being burned, and yet that is even more powerful still

    B. Failure to understand the huge difference between a handgun and a rifle. A famous saying is that the only purpose of a handgun is to fight your way back to the rifle you should have never set down in the first place. Even a 'powerful' handgun like the desert eagle is quite short-ranged compared to even a 'weak' and 'short ranged' rifle like the M4

    handguns suck. If anything, they should be treated like the knife in most shooter games, a last ditch weapon, heck give it magically unending reloads if you must (a knife will eventually dull and break too...eventually) Most assault rifles in games use 5.56NATO which has about 1250 foot-pounds of energy at the muzzle, the AK family uses 7.62x39, which has about 1500 foot-pounds at the muzzle, but looses it's energy faster. In comparison, a 9mm cartridge like coming out of a M-9 handgun or a MP5 SMG, has about 350 foot-pounds of energy, a 45acp like used in an Mac-10, Thompson SMG or 1911 style "colt 45" has 500 foot-pounds of energy

    B2. Knock off this silly 'guns akimbo' nonsense. Unless you have genetically engineered your eyeballs to work like a Chameleon so they can track indepentant of eachother, you cannot aim and fire two guns at once. IF you don't aim, you don't hit.

    C. Failure to understand the big difference in power between assualt rifles, which are defined as using 'intermediate powered cartridges' (read, pretty weak) compared to a 'true rifle' using full powered rifle rounds. It seems like games always have some modern 5.56 weapon as the pinnacle of standard arms (obviously not counting the laser gun or the rocket launcher) when in actuality, the 1950's era 'battle rifles' like the FN-FAL, M-14, AR-10, G-3 are all basically just like their smaller 'assualt rifle' brethern, except they have for the most part 20 round magazines and TWICE THE POWER PER SHOT. Most assault rifles in games use 5.56NATO which has about 1250 foot-pounds of energy at the muzzle, the AK family uses 7.62x39, which has about 1500 foot-pounds at the muzzle, but looses it's energy faster. The battle rifles listed above use 7.62x51mm aka 7.62NATO, and that has 2600 foot-pounds of energy at the muzzle. It can blow through a brick wall no problem, blast through a car door, smash through a bullet-proof vest, punch thorugh a small tree.

    In most places, the 5.56NATO and 7.62x39 are considered 'not powerful enough to hunt deer with'

    See this video
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vgr3kTU68uw&feature=related

    D. Power of shotguns. You can pepper a guy all day 10 paces away with a shotgun and it does almost anything. Using birdshot at a big distance, yes, it won't to a ton of damage, re, dick cheney's hunting buddy catching a load in the face at about 100 yards (which is a LONG distance in video games)

    But in 'combat' or 'home defense' people are going to be using 'buckshot' which is lethal for a very very long range. Aside from that, people use slugs, to turn the shotgun into a defacto rifle. When Timothy Treadwell got eaten by those grizzly bears, and the bush pilot who when to check on him saw the bears eating his corpse, he grabbed his 12 guage shotgun loaded with slugs, as did the game wardens who came with him. A grizzly weighs in the neighborhood of 1000 pounds. Remember the piddly little 9mm at 350 ft-lbs, and the 45 at 450 ft-lbs, and the 5.56 at 1250ft-lbs, and the mightly battle rifles with 2600 ft-lbs, 12 gauge slugs like the Remington Buckhammer and the Brenneke Black Magic have 3200 ft-lbs of energy.

    They are so powerful they also make 'managed recoil' which are lower powered, 2000 or so ft-lb energy versions.

    Most police departments use 'managed recoil' and 'low power' rounds often with the name 'tactical' because a 12 guage firing slugs or buckshot kicks like a mule and even at the low power rounds is INCREDIBLY POWERFUL.

    If you want a 'close range' scatter gun, fine, put in a 20 gauge. 20 guage shells are universally yellow, and then you can be having a lower powered (1500 ft-lbs for slugs) 'birdshot' gun to match the developers desire for a gun that is really powerful if you are in spitting distance of your target, but not very powerful if the guy is a room and a half away.

    But a combat 12 guage loaded with full power slugs, that should be performing the way the plasma cannon is performing.

    See, there is no need for all these tons of fancy space-guns, when real guns, properly depicted, are going to be head-and-shoulders above the run-of-the-mill M-16 or AK-47

    4) What would you like to see implemented in the future of games in regards to firearms and the culture surrounding them?
    This was covered somewhat above.

    I'd further like to see a wider variety of guns. For starters, if you need a common 'rifle' at the early levels of a game, the old M-1 carbine is second only to the AK-47 in terms of how many were produced and out in the world. It isn't a super powerful weapon, having only about 900 ft-lbs of energy at the muzzle, so it woudl be a good thing to find right after you grab that 9mm handgun from a guard

    or, what about 'pistol caliber carbines' http://www.cx4storm.com/ like that beretta storm carbine. Now you have something that is about the same power as a handgun, but capable of much longer shots. If you want something just a little bit better than the staring handgun, rather than instantly going to a 5.56 rifle like the M-16, stick em with that, then finding an M-16 a few levels later is going to be powerful.

    or bring in the good old 30-30, or an SKS, etc etc.



    Weapon Progression, I never liked the general gun progression in most games.

    let's say you have 3 catagories, Power, Magazine Capacity, Rate-of-Fire, and each one is on a 10 point scale.

    Your beginning pistol is going to be a 3-3-3. Normally, the next gun you find is some sort of 'bullet hose' where a 3 round burst does slightly more damage than the handgun (even though each single shot is about the same power) which would probably be described as a 4-4-4, after that you upgrade to an M-4 or somethign, which is depicted as a 5-5-4 and maybe later you get something more modern so it is depicted as more powerful with maybe a 40 round magazine, so then you are 6-6-4 and then you get a belt fed gun wich is 7-10-4 etc

    I'd like to see getting guns that suck in some catagories (rate of fire, magazine capacity) but are great in others. Like a Mosin-nagant bolt action rifle (the gun the russians get in World War 2 games) a 5 shot powerful rifle that is very common, but it has a very low rate of fire.

    So you start out with your 3-3-3 handgun, and then you find a 8-1-1 Mosin-Nagant and then you find an MP5 which is 4-4-4

    So which is better? 4-4-4 or 8-1-1? Each one becomes situationally useful, so you desire to have them both. Later on, you get an M-16, a 5-5-4 but you still probably want to carry that Mosin for it's raw power even though it is slow and has a low magazine capacity, so now you have a hard choice to make.

    I have heard boardgamed defined as the more 'interesting choices per minute' the better. Give people choices, make them hem and haw about which guns to keep and which guns to leave behind. Right now it is obvious, whichever new gun you stumble upon, ditch your old one for it, it must be better.

    Don't force us to run room to room willy nilly spray and pray

    All during Half-Life I was pissed that I got stuck with a pistol or a SMG, or a shotgun (or later on some sort of futuristic beam weapon) Some good old 1899 world war 1 and world war 2 rifles, which are still avialble by the crateload for roughly $75 right here in the USA would have been much better weapons for what was doing. I basically used my revolver as a sniper rifle, laugh! Why are games designed to have you run in and just wave a bullet-hose around. I much prefer being a bit tactical, taking headshots, retreating, etc. Thing is, most games don't have to change at all to do that, you just need to give them slightly different weapons. Why Gordon could find so many SPAS-12 shotguns, but no one from the resistance had access to some good old surplus rifles, or even some old deer hunting rifles, I just don't understand.


    Okay, a little 'energy chart' summary at the end, so it isn't all mixed together

    22LR (like you and your dad shot) = 100 ft-lbs
    9mm = 350 ft-lbs
    45acp = 500 ft-lbs
    44 magnum = 950 ft-lbs
    5.56NATO (M-16) = 1250 ft-lbs
    7.62x39 (AK-47) = 1500 ft-lbs
    20 guage =1200 ft-lbs (for 'short range birdshot shotgun effect if needed in gameplay, energy of slugs just for comparison)
    7.62x51 NATO (battle rifles, hunting rifles) 2600 ft-lbs
    12 guage 'low recoil' slugs =1500-1800 ft-lbs
    12 guage 'standard' slugs = 2400 ft-lbs
    12 guage 3 inch slugs = 3200 ft-lbs
     
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