The Greatest Battle Rifle Ever Devised

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By USAnumberONE

Garand. Hands down.

Here is how I got there:
I am an untrained loser with a gun.

I have had the chance to shoot the FAL, the HK, the AK, the '14, etc. ad nauseum, back to back against the Garand.

The Garand wins. Feels best, shoots best, runs best. And who can argue with the .30-'06? Not me, dude.

Thank you.


Not only do I take issue with shoots best and runs best, but I especially take issue with 'feels best'. No traditional monte carlo style rifle feels better/more ergonomic in hand than a pistol grip rifle, none. Period. So I'm not gonna even bother with the other points, and just say your opinion is obviously biased and therefore means nothing in the context of this discussion.

I will add to the OP topic though, and say imho, the AK and the FAL are my top choices. They always go kaboom when I pull the trigger.
 
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Worst- .223 AR platform

I second that. It is a finicky piece of chit that requires a lot of babying and special care when feeding. I can see a swat team using the AR, but as a battle rifle? I would RUN from an AR.

POLITICS is the reason that the AR is so prevalent in our society/culture/standing forces. Nothing else, imho. The weapon sucks as a mbr.
 
In all of my 20 years in the Army I have never had an M16 jam on me. I can't remember and I am trying my hardest. I retired in 2005. I have had to tap the forward assist a couple of times and that's it.


My vote still goes for the M1 Garand though. Nothing speaks with authority like an M1 garand, does the job like one either.
Two soldiers could hold that thing on the level and let another soldier use it like a step to clear a wall. Can't do it with an M16.:neener:
 
Elmer Keith didn't like M1 Garands,
Elmer Keith was never in combat.
I saw women firing 03s at 1000 yds on the rifle range at MCRD in Korean War era doing better than we with M1s.
Combat is one thing, a rifle range is another. But ultimately the accurized M1 trumped the accurized M1903 on the range.
The Guadalcanal Marines would have been better equipped with M1s than 03s
We did not have enough M1s to equip all our forces until mid-'43. We couldn't produce them fast enough.
 
i just love you guys blow past the topic and keep going on about the m14. how many lives did the m14 take not as many as the ak-47 i rest my case. AK-47 when you need to Do Work.......
 
One reason why the AK isn't as good is longer range. An opposing force can take out the other by longer range. You can lay down effective fire at longer distance where the AK 47 couldn't. This is one of the reasons why the AK will never get my vote. In closer yes. Open warfare? No. The 1903 bolt action, M1 Garand could lay in some effective interlocking fire with a unit doing it right. AKs were designed with assaulting in mind, not that assaulting should have been a dirty word. I would never choose to fire an AK from the prone defensive.
 
Meanwhile, the M14 made big changes to the gas system of the parent rifle, and added a completely different feed system, in a different cartridge, in 1/3 the time and is considered a failure? And we're the ones drinking Kool Aid?

I gather you don't really know much about the history of US rifle R&D/procurement from the end of WW2 until the adoption of the M14. I'd recommend tracking down a copy of Edward Ezell's The Great Rifle Controversy, which breaks down the mountain of money the military poured into a replacement for the Garand before the powers that be insisting the program derail itself in favor of a product-improved Garand whose main claim to fame was that it (allegedly) could use M1 Garand tooling and would fit in existing rifle racks and require no changes in D&C procedures. Besides the FAL, there were competing US designs that were significantly better designed for a select fire weapon, etc. Interesting read.

But, we got the M14 not because it was the best rifle tested in terms of end user requirements, but because the powers that be thought it would be cheap to produce in the short term because they could use already paid for machinery to make it. And, I think most are familiar with the fact that even that selling point proved to be false, and the manufacturers of the weapon failed for most of its service history to meet quality control, production, and cost requirements. TRW finally sorted things out, but, by that point claiming the M14 had done anything in 1/3 the time or for less money than the AR is simply incorrect.
 
Lee-Enfield SMLE or Mauser 98K. The British thought the SMLE was crap due to the Boer War, when FARMERS with Mauser 98s beat the hell out of them, but then in WWI the Germans would charge the line and swear that they were under machine-gun fire! Both are tougher than nails, I've yet to see either a surplus Mauser or SMLE cease to function due to operation. Both are accurate regardless of age, and both pack enough of a punch to kill a man outright with a single shot. These are two weapons everyone should shoot at least once, if anything just to know what its like to fire a REAL rifle.

When two rifles are so good each side wants one, you know its good. I would say the same with the AK-47 and M16, but I've never heard of a story in Nam or in modern Iraq where the VC or Insurgents dropped they're AKs for M16s. I've heard plenty of stories of Vietnam where GI's dropped the M16 (original) for an AK, and I've seen videos on youtube of American soldiers holding, shooting, and using AKs in combat, but I haven't heard much about Insurgents using M4's/M16's. In Afghanistan I've seen photos of Northern Alliance members using M16s, but as I understood they were free from us. Who'd pass up a FREE gun?

The AK wouldn't be the greatest in my mind though due to one thing: accuracy. Sure, production model AKs from 1950 will probably be around long after were all dead. Sure, its round packs a good punch within its ranges. But, none of that matters if you can't hit anything with it! The few stories from the VC about the AK during the Vietnam conflict always say on the lines of: "We had to get as close as possible" and "I'd fire all thirty rounds and only kill one or two Americans". Some people complain about its lack of range, but according to a Marine posting on the Saiga forums about his experience in Fallujah, he never engaged an insurgent at more than 200 meters. So it doesn't lose point on range to me.
 
Have you seen the Designated Marksmen in Iraq with an M14 strapped to their back and an M4 strapped to their front? That pretty much sums it up perfectly without words. Neither rifle is the perfect platform for the the modern battlefied no matter what the pundits say.

If I had my choice I would take an M14 but I could see why someone would want an AR or AK or garand or....
 
When two rifles are so good each side wants one, you know its good. I would say the same with the AK-47 and M16, but I've never heard of a story in Nam or in modern Iraq where the VC or Insurgents dropped they're AKs for M16s

Somebody must have forgotten to tell Zarqawi that back before he got JDAM'ed.

ZarqawiGroup.jpg


Might be a jihad-wide problem with information flow . . .

08190102.gif

Possibly Nguyen and friends didn't get the memo also (seems like they may be M14 and M1 carbine fans, too . . .). Looks like Miss Peoples' Revolution 1968 didn't hear about either.

vcwpns.jpg


621_pic5_vietnam_pic1.jpg

I've heard plenty of stories of Vietnam where GI's dropped the M16 (original) for an AK, and I've seen videos on youtube of American soldiers holding, shooting, and using AKs in combat, but I haven't heard much about Insurgents using M4's/M16's.

In Iraq, right after the invasion during initial stabilization operations you had a lot of guys whose assigned weapon at the time was an M9 pistol (tank crews for instance) and who were being sent out in humvees to do presence patrols. A lot of those guys picked up AKs, since a long gun is better than a pistol. You've got to look pretty hard to find someone who carried an AK after basis of issue was changed to put long guns into the hands of guys who had only rated a pistol originally.

"We had to get as close as possible" and "I'd fire all thirty rounds and only kill one or two Americans".

If you look at the rounds expended for each reported kill we got on the US side (and lots of those were inflated claims during the height of the body count days), I'd think you're describing a general problem in combat and especially in combat in restrictive terrain or built up areas, not so much an AK problem.

An AK is capable of acceptable combat accuracy (call it hits on a man-sized target out to 300 meters with irons) out of the box and even with cruddy ammo. But the shooter has to be able to do his part, with it or any other weapon, and I don't think NVA and VC combat marksmanship training programs were terribly good.
 
i just love you guys blow past the topic and keep going on about the m14. how many lives did the m14 take not as many as the ak-47 i rest my case. AK-47 when you need to Do Work.......
The minnie ball has killed more men than the Atomic bomb. Does that make the minnie ball a more effective weapon?
 
The British thought the SMLE was crap due to the Boer War
The SMLE did not exist during the Boer War. You're thinking of the Long Lee Enfield (which supplanted the Lee Metford.) The Short Magazine Lee Enfield was developed in 1907, six years after the Boer War ended, to address shortcomings identified in that war.
 
As a footnote, it's interesting to note that the British longer-term answer to experience in the Boer War was to adopt their P-13 Mauser clone in .276 caliber, though that was scuttled by World War One logistical demands (and I suspect because MkVII bullet design addressed much of the problem the P-13/276 combo was supposed to solve).
 
I gather you don't really know much about the history of US rifle R&D/procurement from the end of WW2 until the adoption of the M14. I'd recommend tracking down a copy of Edward Ezell's The Great Rifle Controversy, which breaks down the mountain of money the military poured into a replacement for the Garand before the powers that be insisting the program derail itself in favor of a product-improved Garand whose main claim to fame was that it (allegedly) could use M1 Garand tooling and would fit in existing rifle racks and require no changes in D&C procedures. Besides the FAL, there were competing US designs that were significantly better designed for a select fire weapon, etc. Interesting read.

But, we got the M14 not because it was the best rifle tested in terms of end user requirements, but because the powers that be thought it would be cheap to produce in the short term because they could use already paid for machinery to make it. And, I think most are familiar with the fact that even that selling point proved to be false, and the manufacturers of the weapon failed for most of its service history to meet quality control, production, and cost requirements. TRW finally sorted things out, but, by that point claiming the M14 had done anything in 1/3 the time or for less money than the AR is simply incorrect.

I am well aware of the general ins and outs of the procurement processes for both the M14 and the M16. It is humorous at best for one to advocate the M16 while calling to M14 a mistake due to mistakes made during this process. At least the M14 wasn't solely adopted based on claims of its terminal effect demonstrated to politicians by shooting watermelons...

Blunders of procurement acknowledged and all things considered, no advocate of the M16 can call the M14 a mistake with a straight face and expect to be taken seriously. Even presently being modified for the role of the SAW, no one is qualified to say that the M14 wouldn't have filled the role better if given the time to develop and evolve that was given to the M16.

I am simply stating that the modifications done to the M14 were more drastic than any changes done to the M16. If the government had been as patient with that platform as it was with the M16 in terms of addressing failures, it could easily still be with us on the front line. Even without being the standard issue rifle, the M14 has continued to evolve, albeit at a slower rate. Now days, for example, bedding is a thing of the past. Several chassis systems exist (Sage, Troy, JAE...) that provide the accuracy enhancement benefits of bedding without the maintenance. The M14 remains heavier than the M16. In a Sage with the PEQ-2, an ACOG, Surefire, and VFG, an 18 inch barreled M14 would weigh about the same amount as the SAW. So it isn't an amount of weight we don't already expect people to carry.
 
At least the M14 wasn't solely adopted based on claims of its terminal effect demonstrated to politicians by shooting watermelons...

I reiterate my previous statement that you obviously don't know much about the history of either rifle's procurement. Or prefer to repeat mythology because it's less difficult to deal with than facts.

If the government had been as patient with that platform as it was with the M16 in terms of addressing failures, it could easily still be with us on the front line.

Not unless they divorced the M14 from the 7.62x51 cartridge for general service use. Had the same folks who rigged testing to get the M14 adopted in the first place not also insisted on the 308 cartridge, things might have been different. Or maybe not -- as noted, they tried that, and lost to the AR-15.

There still would have been a whole lot of ergonomic issues to correct, that even the new tacticool stocks don't address, though (charging handle misplacement, poor safety design, magazine well design, etc) . . .

because volume is fine, but accuracy is final.

I find it amusing that your signature line is borrowed from a pretty well known authority on guns whose opinions include the stated belief that the M14 is an inferior battle rifle and we'd have been better served by adopting the FAL . . .
 
For today: FN FAL, G3, and the M14. About in that order. Back in WW2, I would say the garand by far.
 
USAnumberone, that's funny for real, but seriously, are you trying to tell me that a monte carlo rifle feels anywhere near as comfortable on your wrist as a pistol grip rifle?

I think if you thought about it, held each again, and thought about it some more, the pg rifle would be the clear victor.
 
But anymanusa, you mean to tell me that in my sixty-some years of carrying a non-PG, I've been uncomfortable?

I never knew that.

FWIW, I've owned and shot four previous ARs, and have one now.

I'm more comfortable with the non-PG.

From what I've seen, shooting a conventionally-stocked rifle comes naturally. Shooting a PG-stocked rifle must be learned/taught/trained in order to overcome what seems to be to be a built-in awkwardness.
 
The Romak 3 7.62x54 was made to be used in the infantry as a battle rifle that extended the range out to about 800 meters to give the regular infantry a better chance in the field, and does a great job. I bought one about a month ago and really enjoy shooting it.
 
Best bolt action battle rifle: SMLE

Short bolt throw for a fast rate of fire.
Ten round magazine - capable of being topped up with individual rounds & detachable if necessary.
Reliable under adverse conditions.

Best semi auto battle rifle: FAL/L1A1

Reliable
Ergonomic
Easy & fast to field strip & clean.
"Minute of man" accurate to 600 yds.

Best assault rifle: AK47

Simple
Reliable
Survives a lack of maintenance

There's no point in having any kind of "battle rifle" that wont survive abuse & sulks if it isn't kept clean, no matter how accurate or "advanced" it is.
Nor should it have fiddly parts that need removing in order to clean or maintain in the battlefield.
Its function & upkeep has to be simple enough to be understood by the dumbest person it's likely to be issued to.
 
The L85a2 solves most of the 5.56mm problem long enough barrel so you can hit out to 600metres but still compact enough for cqb no reports from iraq afghanistan or anywhere else of people continue to fight when hit by it.

I liked the SLR but would rather carry more rounds with an sa80
 
I reiterate my previous statement that you obviously don't know much about the history of either rifle's procurement. Or prefer to repeat mythology because it's less difficult to deal with than facts.

So you're denying that the picnic and the demonstration took place?

Not unless they divorced the M14 from the 7.62x51 cartridge for general service use. Had the same folks who rigged testing to get the M14 adopted in the first place not also insisted on the 308 cartridge, things might have been different. Or maybe not -- as noted, they tried that, and lost to the AR-15.

That's okay, they tried the AR-15 chambered in 7.62x51 (AR-10), and it lost out to the M14.

There still would have been a whole lot of ergonomic issues to correct, that even the new tacticool stocks don't address, though (charging handle misplacement, poor safety design, magazine well design, etc) . . .

There is nothing wrong with any of the features you listed from a functionality nor ergonomic standpoint that hasn't currently been addressed and fixed. The safety and mag release are both fine. They are functional, and located so as to be quick and easy to reach and fully ambi, a feature which puts them above the M16 series from an ergonomic standpoint. The charging handle is awkward for right-handed shooters to charge quickly, esp with optics on the rifle, but current modifications made to the rifle in the Mk 14 Mod 0 address this problem by modifying the bolt stop to work in a manner similar to the AR-15, so that right-handed shooters need only slap the side of their rifle to release the bolt and charge the rifle after a magazine change. The mag well is already funneled and is easy to use. The rock and lock action required to lock magazines in place is not a deficit if training is administered. I taught myself how to do it and can now change magazines in my M1A as fast, if not faster, than I ever could with the M16.

The technique is simple, really, and matches what people have been doing with the AK for some time. When the bolt locks back on an empty magazine, from a position of underarm-assault, the user drops to a knee and calls "reloading!" Then he grabs the easiest to reach mag, already pre-positioned in its pouch with bullets facing the rifle across the body and the top of the magazine facing the ground. The magazine is pull from the pouch and held "low beer can grip" similar to performing a reload in the M16, except it is oriented parallel to the deck with the rounds facing forward, or downrange. In one smooth motion, the front of the loaded magazine is struck against the paddle style mag release and into the back of the empty magazine, knocking it free of the rifle. The loaded magazine is then rotated 90 degrees so that the top is oriented up and is rocked and locked into place as a continuation of the same movement used to clear the empty mag from the rifle. A left-handed shooter can then flip the palm of the hand up and grab the charging handle with the meaty part of the hand, in the exact manner the charging handle of the M249 is manipulated. It is pull back and released, charging the weapon. Right-handed shooters would simply hit the bolt stop on the left-hand side of the receiver. It is very simple, very quick, and very smooth. I put my mind to it for 15 minutes in my boxer shorts one night before bed and was changing mags as fast or nearly as fast as I ever changed them on the M16.

Speaking of charging handle misplacement, have you seen where they put that charging handle on the M16 lately? Talk about awkward...

So yes, the M14 is ergonomically not the M16, but again, that is part of the point. The M16 is not without its own ergonomic faults, esp when shot left handed.

As for my signature line and the supposedly authority I supposedly borrowed it from, we're all free to have our opinions. But if I believed everything "authorities" told me, I'd be in a pretty bad place.
 
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