The Greatest Battle Rifle Ever Devised

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I've been watching this thread from it's inception and find everyone's opinions quite interesting.I agree that it should be more specific but with it as it is these are my picks...

#1-AK and company.A picture says a thousand words and she is on flags and currency!
#2-FAL,as has been said about the M-14,in the hands of the right armourer they can be just as accurate.

In both cases I'll some it up in one word...Africa.Many systems that go there are 1/2 used up on arival.Maitenance is poor at best,by and large.Parts are harder to come by than many may think.The enviroment is beyond harsh.Simple lube,please.Taining...some of the best live and work there but again,please.Hot,wet,hot,dry...sand,mud,dust,you name it,only the hardiest survive. Out of all in the list only these two are seen in any number that is significant.And both can be fired emidiately after being submerged.

FAL in the original chambering!
 
From what I've seen, shooting a conventionally-stocked rifle comes naturally. Shooting a PG-stocked rifle must be learned/taught/trained in order to overcome what seems to be to be a built-in awkwardness.
Click to expand...

:scrutiny:

I don't doubt that you think a traditional rifle is more comfortable, but the proof is in the puddin'. Take a woman or a small child to the range, one that has never held a rifle, and have them hold each. The victor of ergonomics is very clear cut. Their is no learned/taught/trained to holding a pg rifle, regardless of your testimony.

Sorry, but it must be a generational thing or something.;)
 
I repeat, being French, has only been dropped once. LOL I put much more stock in the opinion of guys who have actually used rifles in combat. The reason being there are many things that happen that you can't forsee. You only know if you have been there. Many contenders but the M16 is better than many of you realize in an actual battle. Just the same others have alot going for them and deserve respect and consideration. Keep in mind, each rifle is designed for a different user and different battle conditions and you can only pick one for millions of soldiers and anything they may encounter over a period of years. And you have to balance all factors on a large scale.
Firepower, the ability to direct more hits on them than they can at you and sooner. No contest really, the M16 can put more hits on target quicker than any other issued rifle. There is arguement over which is the best round
and there are times for bigger rounds than the .223. But you run the risk off not being able to control rapid fire if you go bigger. And you will fire rapidly.
The debate remains but no one has proved anything is better. I know the ak is reliable but I have been alone in the open with an M16 in an ambush zone.
At that moment in 1969 I wouldn't chose anything else if I could have.
 
This post is interesting in that it seems to come down to the modern way of thinking of fire power (rnds on target) vs. aimed fire.

I am, unfortunately, old enough to remember and train on three of the guns on the list, the M1 Garand, M14 and M16. I have no hands on experience with any other gun on the list including the AK. Those men I have known who had experience with the AK found it to be a reliable weapon. My experience is with American products.

I love the M1 for its simplicity, accuracy, durability and ease of maintenance. I own one. The M1 clip is a little bit of a pain but the reliability of the weapon over shadows some of the other characteristics. At nine pounds for the weapon plus ammo and other gear, it is a load.

Everything I said about the Garand I believe applies to the M14. I see the argument between the M14 and the M16 as apples and oranges. Both have their good and bad points, with the biggest advantage to the M16 in fire power. The problem with fire power is hitting the target. My family has fought in all previous wars before the "Sand Box", so I can only address those issues. The M1 worked well for my father in both Europe and the Pacific campaigns, and at 87 years old he still talks of it like a good friend.

My brother and I began in the military with the M14 and ended with the M16. He served in combat, I did not, but I know he has great admiration for the M14 as a reliable weapon that could reach out and touch someone. My experiences with the M16 were not good. I do not know if the newest iteration has improved, but given a choice I prefer the M14 platform based on my experiences. I might change my opinion if I had the opportunity to try the new M16 versions. Certainly weight is an issue, but I like the longer range of the 7.62 vs. the 5.56. Your experiences may vary.
 
In my opinion, And I am not an expert by any means, As far as wars and or battles are concerned.

Given the chance I think that this one would have given the garand a run for the money, (FWIW, I am aware that it saw very little time in any battle, I am talking about the design)

DSCN0028.jpg

The FN49, Weight approximately the same as the garand, Cal. choice/ 7MM, 7.62x51, 30.06, 8MM.

More rounds, no ping, About the only part of the rifle that I can find that is stamped, is the dust cover, and the magazine, the rest is machined, Granted they were costly,but you get what you pay for.
 
Can we all agree on this much though:

If you had the jump on the enemy, just one enemy, you'd rather use a Remington 700 in .308 at 600+ yards than an AK at 100?
 
I've got both and it's immeasurably harder to get a hit at 600+ yards with just about anything hand held than it is to get a hit at 100 yards with an AK. AK's can easily hit a human torso at 100 yards. They might not be the worlds most accurate rifle, but they can do that much all day long.

Trying to connect at 600+ yards is another matter entirely. Just getting your range off by a little or some gusting winds can throw you way off target.

To put things into a little perspective, with a 10 mph breeze, you'd have to make a 30" correction at 600 yards for windage. At 700 it goes up to 43". At 600 yards with a 100 yard zero you'd have to aim more than 7 feet high to correct for elevation. At 700 you'd have to aim nearly 11' high. Trying to estimate that range correctly and then making the proper correction isn't something even many skilled riflemen can do, at least not on the first shot.
 
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This discussion is precisely why many shooters have 5.56, 7.62x54, 30-06, and an AK or two in their cabinets and enjoy shooting them all. Just as more than one wrench is needed in a toolbox, so too should we have several rifles. But if I had to choose only one and I could have no others, I'd have to go with either the M14 or AK. Both cartridges are powerful enough to tackle most situations I'm likely to face, the rifles are batle tested and proven reliable, and ammo is readily available in most of the world.
 
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Oh yes....

Best military rifle, all around?

Not the .308 + calibers, recoil is too high for anything other than Sniper/Marksman work.

The AK was very good for untrained peasant armies, that you sent out in massive waves to die.

Given that I am not a peasant sent to die, and have enough knowledge to handle another gun, ill pass.

The AR-15 type would be the best for me... 20 years ago.

Lets see... the modern versions have decent reliability, are suitable both for marksmanship and for CQC, and while the 5.56 NATO isn't the 6.8 SPC, its a heck of alot more common.

Its very ergonomic... for something designed so long ago. Its NOT bullpup, so either you are holding an unwieldy long object in CQC or you are unable to hit a target around 500m

Enter the bullpups.
The FAMAS is so crappy there is no need to talk about it.

The Steyr AUG types look cool. Are fairly ergonomic and very reliable. Bullpup which means shorter Over All Length, but more barrel. Unfortunately, it comes in at around 8.4 pounds, which is significantly more than your 7 pound M4 carbine.

The FN F2000, while slightly less exotic looking than the AUG, is one of the sexiest looking guns around (subject to ones opinion, some claim it is butt-ugly)
Its very ergonomically designed, and can be easily accessorized, although it is NOT the SCAR.
Its also overweight, like the AUG

Enter the IMI Tavor 21. At a mere 7.2 pounds it is not much heavier than the M4, which has other deficiencies. At only 28.5 inches long, it is shorter than the M4 carbine, even when you retract the M4's stock!

Simultaneously, it has 18.1 inches of barrel (standard) compared to the M4's 14.5 inch barrel, granting greater accuracy and more FPS (feet per sec, not frames per sec)

Basically, a low recoil, very lightweight CQC-oriented full length rifle easily capable of DM work as well.:cool:

Best in existence.

Plus, it is the weapon of choice by Israel. If the Jews use it, and their Spec Ops like this, then I will choose the weapon that a nation that not only survived war against all the Arab nations (well, most of em) but WON designed, built and use, even over the fact they cost much more than the M16-M4s the United states sends them for $10 apiece.:cuss:

Theres one problem..... Its not legal in the US:banghead:
 
I repeat, being French, has only been dropped once. LOL I put much more stock in the opinion of guys who have actually used rifles in combat.
Click to expand...

Does Dien Bien Phu ring any bells?
 
Sorry. I regret my remark about the French rifles. I meant that to be seperate from the fact that the opinion of a combat veteran about his rifle means way more to me than someone who has never been in combat.
My hat is off to those who died in battle. And to those who bear arms for freedom.
I do feel a need to defend our arms that our soldiers use. I would not want them to feel that our country sent them to battle with inferior equipment as I do not think that is the case. How they can be improved is a billion dollar question and deserves thoughtful discussion. Ok I'm off the soapbox.
 
Okay, seeing as were nit-picking, how about this:

We'd all prefer to use a Remington .308 at 600+ yards ON A BIPOD, IN A PRONE POSITION, than an AK at 100 yards standing straight up (wearing festive multi-color vests and moon-shoes)?

Now are we all in agreement?
 
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