The Hi-Point Throwdown

[JR47]

The delay may have more to do with production capacity than technical problems. High Point is selling guns about as fast as they can make them. Adding new tooling, then bringing in a new line, would slow production for a considerable period of time.

 

[aryfrosty]

Hi-Point Junk

I will certainly specify that my experience colors my opinions and that someone who might have have had A good experience might actually like them. You guys who believe that they are reliable might Google the words "Frangible Zinc" since that seems to be the bulk of the metal of the several I have handled...NOT fired. A shortcut might be that I could say that frangible zinc is also called "pot metal". Similar metals were commonly used by tinkers in the 19th and early 20th centuries because it had a low melting point and flowed well thereby lending itself to patching cookpots. Another use for this metal is in the manufacture of "replica firearms". I never really thought anyone would make something that fires ammo out of the stuff. One bad thing I see about it is that it breaks very easily and unexpectedly. I have personally seen 2 Hi-Point 9mms which fractured across the slide in the area of the ejection port...WHILE BEING FIRED! I won't own one and I would absolutely not stand on a firing line while another shooter was using one near me. I don't see this as being snooty or bigoted. I like my body with the current number of holes in it and don't wish to chance someone putting others in me without my let be. As I said, these are my opinions only and I would never say that anyone has to believe what I say. Anybody remember "Stallard Arms"?

 

[1911Tuner]

aryfrosty's observations are valid, and the failures that he mentioned are recoil stress fractures that that don't normally appear in blowback pistols...and they are a concern because the effect is the same as allowing the breech to open too early.

Because of the extensive use of zinc in Hi-Points, I've pretty much considered them to be of the "Carried a Lot and Seldom Shot" variety. There are more expensive pistols and revolvers that I also put into that category. Pistols that are considered to be of high quality, good design, and excellent carry pieces...but simply aren't durable enough to be put to hard use.

For those considering a Hi-Point as part of their home defense battery, it would be wise to bear these things in mind.

 

[Onward Allusion]

real-world unscientific experiment

I went out and picked up a HP C-9 for grins and put it through its paces. Note that mine was not handed to me by a MKS employee. This is an off-the-shelf unit that I'd picked up for $150 OTD. I also purchased 4 other factory mags with the pistol.

Today at the range . . .
Out of 10 loaded mags shot (five separate new magazines) only ONE magazine did not suffer a failure to feed or eject. Of the mags that did jam, more than a few had more than one FTE/FTF. Almost every one of the FTE/FTFs could not be resolved through tap-rack-bang. Because of the design of the slide/ejection port, stovepipes usually required disengaging the magazine while holding the slide in the rearward position, as there is no external slide release/lock.

The ammo used was WWB, UMC Yellow Box, Brown Bear, & Silver Bear - each brand of ammo was used at least twice in two different mags.

The same ammo was used with a 5946 to ensure that the ammo was good. The 5946 had zero malfunctions out of 10 different loaded magazines.

- Groupings at 7 yards were more like 10" shotgun patterns - although every shot landed on the B-27 silhouette (by contrast, groups of 1" to 2" with the 5946)
- Cycling time was slow.
- Ergonomics was ok - The extended magazine made it easier to shoot -vs- the 8 round mags
- For a 9mm, it had snappy recoil
- Trigger was gritty and rough, even for a single action. This is coming from someone who thinks the Sigma's trigger is ok.

From additional research, it would appear that the magazines, like the pistol itself, requires a break-in period. Having to run through 250 to 500 9mm rounds before deeming a pistol reliable would cost the purchaser an additional $50 to $130 + tax and/or shipping, depending on ammo used.

Based on this unscientific experiment, I think that someone who could not afford more than a couple of hundred for a firearm & ammo AND had performed some research on the Internet would be crazy to buy a Hi-Point C-9.

For the same amount they would spend on the gun and break-in ammo, they can easily purchase an used S&W Model 10, a FEG PA-63, a NEW Armscor .38spl, or even a used Taurus 82 .38spl and be able to rely on it in a crunch.

But hey, I would never say that unless one can afford a Sig 226 they should save and wait. All I'm saying is that there are alternatives out there. RELIABLE alternatives that don't require 500 rounds of break-in.

 

[valorius]

Once you factor in the break in ammo, as you pointed out, you could be in used Ruger P-85 (and similar) $ territory....a used pistol which should require no break in at all.

 

[liikeaboss]

Thanks onward! Good perspective there.

 

[Wildkow]

Hi Points are Ugly/Fugly HA! if it saved your life or a loved ones life it would be the most beautiful gun in the world!

 

[Wildkow]

I went out and picked up a HP C-9 for grins and put it through its paces. Note that mine was not handed to me by a MKS employee. This is an off-the-shelf unit that I'd picked up for $150 OTD. I also purchased 4 other factory mags with the pistol.

Today at the range . . .
Out of 10 loaded mags shot (five separate new magazines) only ONE magazine did not suffer a failure to feed or eject. Of the mags that did jam, more than a few had more than one FTE/FTF. Almost every one of the FTE/FTFs could not be resolved through tap-rack-bang. Because of the design of the slide/ejection port, stovepipes usually required disengaging the magazine while holding the slide in the rearward position, as there is no external slide release/lock.

The ammo used was WWB, UMC Yellow Box, Brown Bear, & Silver Bear - each brand of ammo was used at least twice in two different mags.

The same ammo was used with a 5946 to ensure that the ammo was good. The 5946 had zero malfunctions out of 10 different loaded magazines.

- Groupings at 7 yards were more like 10" shotgun patterns - although every shot landed on the B-27 silhouette (by contrast, groups of 1" to 2" with the 5946)
- Cycling time was slow.
- Ergonomics was ok - The extended magazine made it easier to shoot -vs- the 8 round mags
- For a 9mm, it had snappy recoil
- Trigger was gritty and rough, even for a single action. This is coming from someone who thinks the Sigma's trigger is ok.

From additional research, it would appear that the magazines, like the pistol itself, requires a break-in period. Having to run through 250 to 500 9mm rounds before deeming a pistol reliable would cost the purchaser an additional $50 to $130 + tax and/or shipping, depending on ammo used.

Based on this unscientific experiment, I think that someone who could not afford more than a couple of hundred for a firearm & ammo AND had performed some research on the Internet would be crazy to buy a Hi-Point C-9.

For the same amount they would spend on the gun and break-in ammo, they can easily purchase an used S&W Model 10, a FEG PA-63, a NEW Armscor .38spl, or even a used Taurus 82 .38spl and be able to rely on it in a crunch.

But hey, I would never say that unless one can afford a Sig 226 they should save and wait. All I'm saying is that there are alternatives out there. RELIABLE alternatives that don't require 500 rounds of break-in.

I've heard Kahr PM9's take 200+ rounds per the factory to break in and feed properly. They sell for $600-$700 I don't think anyone here would consider any gun ready for CCW unless several hundred rounds have been through it? Am I wrong?

 

[Kimber.45]

My Kimbers had a break in period even though the Grand Raptor has been flawless since day one, the Custom II took a trip back to the factory to get things right.
My Walther P22 has a pot metal slide which did crack and was replaced.
Most Ak's are cheaply made, some use pot metal and laminates.
My SR9 went back to the factory for various problems (has been perfect since)
My Maks are hard to find ammo for and can't get parts.
LCP (another reasonably cheap gun) has been flawless since day 1.
My C9 went back to the factory for slide wear that was my fault (I didn't install the takedown pin all the way). Hi Point fixed it free and it is flawless with 115 gr ball ammo.

Various guns, various problems. The only two I never had issues with were the Grand Raptor and the LCP and as noted, even the GR had a recommended break in.

I might also add that Hi Point said they replaced my slide, barrel and a few other parts. In reality I think they replaced the gun and put my s/n on it as even the frame had flashing on it upon it's return and I had trimmed the excee off of mine.

Break in on a Hi Point?
Try shooting ball ammo, 115 gr it works for me. Also load the mag to capacity and let it sit for a week. Some people have said the mag lips need adjustment, maybe, but mine works after letting it sit loaded. There are two Hi Point forums that contain good information though HPT is not as overbearing and holier than thou as the other one.

I'm glad to see the Hi Point doing reasonably well and look forward to further updates.

 

[christcorp]

I only needed 2 boxes of ammo through a C-9 until it became completely reliable. Considering 9mm at walmart is only $9.97 a box (Federal), the extra $20 that people are saying for break in, isn't that bad. As mentioned also, I wouldn't trust ANY PISTOL for carry or self defense unless I've personally shot at least 200+ rounds through it. If all you're going to do is buy a pistol and a box of ammo, and put it in your night stand "IN CASE" you need it, then buy a revolver. But even if you buy a glock, HK, Sig, S&W, etc...; if you are going to use it for self defense, you are crazy if you haven't put at least 4-5 boxes of ammo through it. So the "SO CALLED" additional cost for breakin is a moot point.

Also, it has been documented about 4,398,509 times that WWB is not the most reliable ammo in a C-9 hi-point. And please don't argue that Every gun should be able to shoot all ammo. That is not reality. Every gun is unique. I have a Walther that will not under any circumstance shoot Corbon ammo. It physically gets jammed in the chamber. I don't hear people saying that Walthers suck.

No, the Hi-Point isn't really designed for the speed of steel shooting. And no, it isn't really designed as a carry gun. But as a home, garage, truck, camping, boat, type gun; it does a very good job. As far as zinc goes, I have no problem trusting it. Hell, half the people on this forum trusts plastic guns. And the ONLY guns I've ever seen with mechanical stress cracks were because of hot ammo. That was a Springfield 1911A1 and a Ruger Blackhawk. And I don't think anyone here considers springers or blackhawk pistols junk.

Point is, hi-points definitely have a valid place for many people. Those critical of them are usually looking at them from a very specific perspective. Meaning: As a carry gun; as a competition gun; needing a hi-cap magazine gun; etc... In other words, they look at what the gun isn't good at doing, and assume it must be just. Well, my porsche can't haul firewood out of the mountains. That doesn't make it junk. And my F250 can't take my family of 4 on a family vacation either. That doesn't make the F250 a piece of junk. But as has been shown by so many, the hi-point is a very reliable, dependable, and accurate gun, if used for what it was designed for.

 

[jmstevens2]

But hey, I would never say that unless one can afford a Sig 226 they should save and wait. All I'm saying is that there are alternatives out there. RELIABLE alternatives that don't require 500 rounds of break-in.

My Colt 1911 brand new did.

 

[jmstevens2]

My Kimbers had a break in period even though the Grand Raptor has been flawless since day one, the Custom II took a trip back to the factory to get things right.
My Walther P22 has a pot metal slide which did crack and was replaced.
Most Ak's are cheaply made, some use pot metal and laminates.
My SR9 went back to the factory for various problems (has been perfect since)
My Maks are hard to find ammo for and can't get parts.
LCP (another reasonably cheap gun) has been flawless since day 1.
My C9 went back to the factory for slide wear that was my fault (I didn't install the takedown pin all the way). Hi Point fixed it free and it is flawless with 115 gr ball ammo.

Various guns, various problems. The only two I never had issues with were the Grand Raptor and the LCP and as noted, even the GR had a recommended break in.

I might also add that Hi Point said they replaced my slide, barrel and a few other parts. In reality I think they replaced the gun and put my s/n on it as even the frame had flashing on it upon it's return and I had trimmed the excee off of mine.

Break in on a Hi Point?
Try shooting ball ammo, 115 gr it works for me. Also load the mag to capacity and let it sit for a week. Some people have said the mag lips need adjustment, maybe, but mine works after letting it sit loaded. There are two Hi Point forums that contain good information though HPT is not as overbearing and holier than thou as the other one.

I'm glad to see the Hi Point doing reasonably well and look forward to further updates.

HPT ? I know HPFF.

 

[valorius]

I put the ATI stock on my Godson's 995 9mm carbine for him tonight for his birthday.

What a nice stock!

Super solid feel, and it makes the gun look and feel far more serious, and a good deal handier. Now i want one!!!

 

[Kimber.45]

HPT ? I know HPFF.

http://www.hipointtalk.net/index.php

 

[s2mason]

aryfrosty's observations are valid, and the failures that he mentioned are recoil stress fractures that that don't normally appear in blowback pistols...and they are a concern because the effect is the same as allowing the breech to open too early.

Because of the extensive use of zinc in Hi-Points, I've pretty much considered them to be of the "Carried a Lot and Seldom Shot" variety. There are more expensive pistols and revolvers that I also put into that category. Pistols that are considered to be of high quality, good design, and excellent carry pieces...but simply aren't durable enough to be put to hard use.

For those considering a Hi-Point as part of their home defense battery, it would be wise to bear these things in mind.

Tuner,
With all due respect to your point, it appears that the overwhelming majority of actual Hi Point owners claim to have put thousands of rounds through their respective pistols, and claim to have experienced an extrememly low failure rate. My own conversations with other HP owners, and gun store employees seem to bear this out as an accurate assessment. It would appear that whatever the composite material make up of the parts they use is, they do not have an abnormal or dangerous wear pattern. That's not conjecture. I'd say it's as close to fact as can be claimed.

 

[1911Tuner]

With all due respect to your point, it appears that the overwhelming majority of actual Hi Point owners claim to have put thousands of rounds through their respective pistols, and claim to have experienced an extrememly low failure rate.

Regardless, it's still something to keep an eye on. Any time we deal with a casting, there's a chance of voids in the metal, and a zinc casting doesn't have nearly the tensile or shear strength of steel. One slide may last 10,000 rounds, and the next one in line might bust with less than a hundred. I advise a close inspection for cracks in the breechface area on machined barstock slides every 10,000 rounds. Inspecting a hard use gun for signs of impending failure is part of the program. Every thousand rounds for a zinc casting wouldn't be unreasonable, and it could save an eye.

 

[Deltaboy1984]

I will certainly specify that my experience colors my opinions and that someone who might have have had A good experience might actually like them. You guys who believe that they are reliable might Google the words "Frangible Zinc" since that seems to be the bulk of the metal of the several I have handled...NOT fired. A shortcut might be that I could say that frangible zinc is also called "pot metal". Similar metals were commonly used by tinkers in the 19th and early 20th centuries because it had a low melting point and flowed well thereby lending itself to patching cookpots. Another use for this metal is in the manufacture of "replica firearms". I never really thought anyone would make something that fires ammo out of the stuff. One bad thing I see about it is that it breaks very easily and unexpectedly. I have personally seen 2 Hi-Point 9mms which fractured across the slide in the area of the ejection port...WHILE BEING FIRED! I won't own one and I would absolutely not stand on a firing line while another shooter was using one near me. I don't see this as being snooty or bigoted. I like my body with the current number of holes in it and don't wish to chance someone putting others in me without my let be. As I said, these are my opinions only and I would never say that anyone has to believe what I say. Anybody remember "Stallard Arms"?

So, we have all seen youtube or pics of glocks going KA_BOOM!

 

[1911Tuner]

So, we have all seen youtube or pics of glocks going KA_BOOM!

A little different kinda kaboom there. When the Glocks do it, it's always been due to a burst case, with the force directed downward into the magwell. Unless sympathetic detonation of stored rounds occurs, any injury is usually confined to the hand.

If a slide separates under full recoil, you get to find out how long it takes a surgeon to remove it from your face.

I've seen steel slides on locked breech pistols crack in the port area adjacent to the breechface. It normally takes tens of thousands of rounds, but it does happen eventually if the gun is shot enough. Unusual for a blowback pistol to crack there because there's no resistance from the barrel, and if it's been noted in a Hi-Point, it indicates that the slide bears watching.

I've said it before, but it bears repeating. These guns aren't designed to take the beating handed to an all-steel gun. They're fine for the niche they fill, but they fall into the category of "Carried a lot/Seldom shot" and it doesn't matter to me that some of them have endured 10,000 rounds without failure. They're not made of steel...and the slide is the most critical part because it makes up the breechblock.

FWIW, I also put Colt's LW Commander...the Star PD and BKM...SMith & Wesson's Model 37...and the Charter .44 Bulldog in the same class...at least for my uses. Everyone else may do as they wish, but like with any other caveat...Be prepared to face the consequences of ignoring sound advice.

The Hi-Point fills a niche, and fills it adequately...but used for a common beater, it very may well bite if the owner neglects to perform periodic inspection.

 

[Nasty]

Umm...the Charter Bulldog Pug in .44 Special I have is stainless steel.

Where are you getting that it should not be fired often?

While I don't expect it to last as long as say my S&W 696, I have several thousand rounds through the pipe so far with no issues whatsoever.

You're comparing stainless steel to zinc castings now?

 

[JHK94]

Umm...the Charter Bulldog Pug in .44 Special I have is stainless steel.

I believe that the frame on (at least the older ones....I dunno if something has changed recently) those is alloy, not steel. That's why they are so light.

 

[jmstevens2]

Tuner,
With all due respect to your point, it appears that the overwhelming majority of actual Hi Point owners claim to have put thousands of rounds through their respective pistols, and claim to have experienced an extrememly low failure rate. My own conversations with other HP owners, and gun store employees seem to bear this out as an accurate assessment. It would appear that whatever the composite material make up of the parts they use is, they do not have an abnormal or dangerous wear pattern. That's not conjecture. I'd say it's as close to fact as can be claimed.

Another thing is, don't confuse the carbines and pistols, they are totally different animals. I don't carry my pistols, actually I seldom shoot them, but the carbines, it is a great weapon and is next to my bed.

 

[s2mason]

Inspecting a hard use gun for signs of impending failure is part of the program. Every thousand rounds for a zinc casting wouldn't be unreasonable, and it could save an eye.

Point taken, but I still don't equate the actual failure rate to be markedly different than other pistols. In any case, I'd hope anyone putting that many rounds through their pistol would be wearing safety glasses

 

[s2mason]

Another thing is, don't confuse the carbines and pistols, they are totally different animals. I don't carry my pistols, actually I seldom shoot them, but the carbines, it is a great weapon and is next to my bed.

I'm well aware of the difference, but hey.....thanks......I guess

 

[Nasty]

I believe that the frame on (at least the older ones....I dunno if something has changed recently) those is alloy, not steel. That's why they are so light.

Nope...the Bulldogs have always been carbon steel or 400 series stainless. No zinc, no aluminum, no plastic.

 

[Hamsen]

I was browsing the Hi Point forum and saw someone
found a way to add optic sights to his c9.









Think he might have screwed up his rear sights though.