The Hi-Point Throwdown

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Was the pistol was already broken in or was it straight from the box?

Supposed to be out of box, or at least it was represented as such. It did come from the factory rep, so the question would be whether it was taken at random from inventory or a ringer that was cherry-picked, or had any special attention before it was shipped.

Maybe not, but since Hi Point has a dog in this fight, that would be the way to bet.

It would have carried more weight had it been taken from a distributor's inventory...but it is what it is.
 
I have not really messed with hi point pistols, but i bought my godson a 995 carbine in 9mm, and i honestly have to say the rifle totally blew me away with it's amazing reliability. I TRIED to get it to jam by feeding it every kind of hollowpoint and bullet weight i could find, to no avail.

The daggone little thing just plain works.
 
I have only one problem with this gun.

its so UGLY!

the slide looks like a steel bar that didn't finish getting milled into a slide that one can stand to look at, the grip looks like somebody got a bit carried away bending metal at some point, its just so fugly its ridiculous.

but thats coming from a CZ fan. :D
 
I would like to see the following challenge...

Have an 8" target at 21 - 30 feet....

Take two shooters...

Shooter A - A good shooter, has spent time at the range in the past and is familiar with the operations of a gun and knows how to draw, develop a sight picture and shoot.

Shooter B - A GREAT shooter, spends 2-4 hours a week at the range and sends 1000's of rounds down range.

Bring them both the line and give them one magazine full of ammo and ask them to shoot the target.

What do you think the results would be?

I am shooter A.5... I shoot more than the average fella, but not as much as many "high roaders... My brother, does not own a gun... was in the military but rarely shot a side arm, can hit the center of that target EVERY TIME... so can I...

The argument that you need to spend X amount of time at the range and send X amount of ammo down range is bogus... you need to be proficient... if YOU need to send 1000's or rounds down range to have home SD skills, than thats ok. No harm no foul, but that is not the case with everyone.

And, for someone who is inclined to shooting well, and has a limited budget a reliable $150 gun is just fine.

A collector is looking for other attributes than a homeowner looking for a SD gun and as I mentioned above, each person will need to find their own comfort zone.
 
My point was not why he was buying it I have pre 64 Winchesters locked up here also that have hardley been fired in years I take them out very seldom. My point is if he cant afford to feed it if its intent is for home defense maybe he shouldnt. I can afford the guns I have I can also afford to shoot them. The guns meant for home defense should be shot enough to be proficient with them. The guns bought for looking at dont have to be shot at all. Heck maybe he wants that highpoint to show off its looks I dont know but the purpose of the firearm and ability should be considered.

What yard-stick does one apply to the word "proficient"? How many of us, the "gun-savvy" people, actually spend the majority of our money in ammunition while setting up "real-life" scenarios, and then practicing them? I'm willing to bet that the majority of ammunition expended is against paper targets at distances of 15-25 yards, from a standing position. Most of us have to use public ranges. Ranges that are adverse to "reality-based scenarios".

The other side of this, of course, is why everyone always assumes that the perpetrator is so competent with HIS arm. Most burglers, smash-and-grab, or home-invasion, are using whatever weapon they can get their hands on. They don't practice with them, and rarely carry more ammo than came with the gun. Against that, the proficiency yard-stick is pretty short.

Deciding just what is sufficient practice, without ever being able to tell what the individual will actually do, and then claiming that such a person is "better off without a gun" sounds suspiciously like the VPC approach.

FYI, the slide on High Point pistols is NOT made of zinc. Zinc, in it's pure form, is way too soft. I believe that it is, instead, a Zinc-alloy, similar to Zamak. For what it is designed to do on these pistols, it works quite well. It's necessary to be made more bulky for the same strength as steel alloys, but costs significantly less.
 
The other side of this, of course, is why everyone always assumes that the perpetrator is so competent with HIS arm.

That is not really the point of wanting to develop better-than-average proficiency. If there is a bad guy in my future, I don't know who it is. I don't know anything about him or her, or what kind of weapon he or she will have - if any. Can't make any assumptions about that.

What I can say for nearly certain is that most likely I'll be responding, not initiating the conflict. In many of the scenarios I consider, I'm getting shot at least once before returning fire (and I hope I'm not the only one who plans for that). So the burden of speed and accuracy is on the defender.

Back to the Hi-Point, I can't disregard aesthetics when it comes to my weapons. First and foremost they have to be effective. It's possible to overlook some of form factors, but the Hi-Point is far and away the ugliest firearm I've ever seen. Hard to imagine owning something like that.
 
What yard-stick does one apply to the word "proficient"? How many of us, the "gun-savvy" people, actually spend the majority of our money in ammunition while setting up "real-life" scenarios, and then practicing them? I'm willing to bet that the majority of ammunition expended is against paper targets at distances of 15-25 yards, from a standing position. Most of us have to use public ranges. Ranges that are adverse to "reality-based scenarios".

The other side of this, of course, is why everyone always assumes that the perpetrator is so competent with HIS arm. Most burglers, smash-and-grab, or home-invasion, are using whatever weapon they can get their hands on. They don't practice with them, and rarely carry more ammo than came with the gun. Against that, the proficiency yard-stick is pretty short.

Deciding just what is sufficient practice, without ever being able to tell what the individual will actually do, and then claiming that such a person is "better off without a gun" sounds suspiciously like the VPC approach.

FYI, the slide on High Point pistols is NOT made of zinc. Zinc, in it's pure form, is way too soft. I believe that it is, instead, a Zinc-alloy, similar to Zamak. For what it is designed to do on these pistols, it works quite well. It's necessary to be made more bulky for the same strength as steel alloys, but costs significantly less.
They use Zamak 3. Zamak is 96% ZINC and 4% Aluminum. So...yeah its basically Zinc. I have a number of Airsoft pistols...they are made of Zinc too. Lets leave Zinc to the airgun industry, and before you come back with the "plastic gun" argument, dont bother.

And I never said that anybody was better off without a gun if they werent proficient with it. My argument is that they are kidding themselves if they think they can actually "perform" should the need arise unless they actually put time and effort into practice of any kind.
 
My argument is that they are kidding themselves if they think they can actually "perform" should the need arise unless they actually put time and effort into practice of any kind.

Horsehockey. The NRA's "Armed Citizen" every month is full of stories about people who "perform" when they have to. I'd be willing to bet very few, if any of those people have ever spent much/any time "training" or even practicing. They're ordinary people who happen to have a gun, any gun, handy when it's needed.
 
Horsehockey. The NRA's "Armed Citizen" every month is full of stories about people who "perform" when they have to. I'd be willing to bet very few, if any of those people have ever spent much/any time "training" or even practicing. They're ordinary people who happen to have a gun, any gun, handy when it's needed.

I'm inclined to agree. Most of those stories involve Grandma and/or Grandpa Shopkeeper or Bonnie Trueheart, the waitress at the small cafe. Joe Average types who become the target of an assault, robbery, or home invasion. Very rarely is there mention made of any of them being IDPA/USPSA or Bullseye competitors, or any involvement in the shooting sports. I'd tend to think if that was the case...it would be mentioned in the articles.

"Crooks picked the wrong victim Saturday night when they entered the home of Grand Master/Distinguished Expert/Former Green Beret weapons expert and champion pistol competitor John C. Realdeal during an attempted home invasion."

Instead of:

"An armed robbery went awry for Joe Pigsnot when he entered the general store with gun in hand and was met by 78 year-old Hiram B. Goodguy and his double barrelled shotgun."
 
hehehe...gotta watch out for us old farts.

We're too old to fight and too slow to run, so we cheat and have a gun ready...*ANY* gun...99% of the fancy stuff is elitism.

No, I don't, nor have I ever, owned a Hi-Point, but I applaud those folks who can't afford anything *fancier* for taking the initiative in defending themselves.
 
May be a little wide of the tpoic, but it ties in with the point/counterpoint discussion on people not becoming proficient with their gun.

In the years that I've been involved with shooting and bringing new, uninitiated folks into the fold, that...while a little disconcerting...is more the norm than seeing the light come on and watching the previously non-shooter take to it like a mama bear to a honeycomb.

How often have we convinced wives, girlfriends, friends, neighbors, and 3rd cousins twice removed to get serious enough about their security to procure a suitable firearm...and then have to work to convince them to learn to use it?

And of those that we've managed to get to the range to actually shoot the gun...how many have grudgingly agreed to go back for repeat lessons...and then start to make excuses for not going after having made loud noises and created holes in paper targets?

How many have actually seemed like they've discovered this whole, new world of gun fun, and really gotten involved? I'd say about one in ten.

One of the hardest things for an enthusiast to understand is that not everybody is as passionate over his drive to excell at his favored activity as he is. From baseball to skydiving to playing chess...it simply doesn't interest everybody to the same level.

Equally hard to fathom is that...despite being shown the way...many of the people who buy a gun for protection are still a little afraid of it. They still view it as the snake in the woodpile. They'd still prefer that it not be there because to admit to themselves that it's a good thing to have on hand is to admit that the world can be a dangerous place, and their homes aren't the safe havens that they want to believe they are.

In short, that gun in their nightstand represents a shattered childhood belief...and they aren't comfortable with that. Such people aren't going to go practice Tueller Drills and sign up for Steel Challenge.

I read an editorial in the newspaper once where an anti-type journalist had gone to a firing range to observe and shoot in a USPSA match....just to see what it was like and to get a story for his column. He watched and he took notes, and when his report was pubished the following week, he made the remark:

"It's obvious that these people are training for something...but exactly what that something is seems to be a little too horrifying for this journalist to contemplate."

That is the mindset of many people who buy a gun for protection, and never really consider exactly what may be involved in that decision. They don't want to think about actually having to use it. On TV, everybody who has a gun is a Dead-Eye Dick, and they believe that it really works that way, and you'll hit a wall when you try to convince them that it doesn't.
 
LOL.... I was the proud owner of 5 revolvers and several rifles, but did not own an autoloader; that is until this post. A friend of mine has a Hi Point 9mm that I've shot on occasion at the range. It's the only auto loader that I've managed to do a reasonable amount of damage to a target with. In any case, I started to consider picking one up due to price point. Who doesn't want another gun to plink with at the range? If I can get something cheap that goes bang everytime, all the better. Now, along comes this thread...... well, you fella's convinced me that for $150 bucks I gotta see what the fuss is all about. So this last weekend, I stopped in the local gun store and dropped off my $150 OTD for my very own Hi Point 9mm.
Now in MHO, no autoloader will ever be as pretty as a wheel gun. However, I just don't find this HP to be as ugly as everyone thinks. It looks like what it's intended to be. A cheap, durable pistol. It's not beautiful, but it looks like it can take a beating, it just looks kinda.......tough. Like a bully, I like that. Now I have something I don't feel bad about tossing it in the backpack, or the truck, etc., etc. and not having to give it too much attention.
I find it very, very hard to concieve that this gun can have very many problems at all based on the incredibly liberal warranty it carries. There is no way this company could stay in business at the margins they are selling this gun at, if they were dealing with excessive warranty claims. That just seems to be common sense to the business man in me..........
When the BG comes calling and this goes bang from 6' away, I'm just not convinced that my high dollar S&W's are going to be more efficient/effective in that scenario. I'm pretty sure that my wife also, can point and pull this with the same likely results.....just MO on the issue.
 
I am shooter A.5... I shoot more than the average fella, but not as much as many "high roaders... My brother, does not own a gun... was in the military but rarely shot a side arm, can hit the center of that target EVERY TIME... so can I...

The argument that you need to spend X amount of time at the range and send X amount of ammo down range is bogus...

How far away is that target? How often do you suppose you'll be shooting at a motionless assailant at 7 yards from an isosceles stance? The more you train, the readier you are to deal with real world threats that don't present themselves in such an ideal scenario.

Training is only one aspect of shooting. Most of us shoot because we enjoy it. Nobody is so good that they can't challenge themselves to reach the next level.
 
Most of us shoot because we enjoy it. Nobody is so good that they can't challenge themselves to reach the next level.

Preachin' to the choir. We all understand that.

An old gun dealer told me something once that made a lot of sense.

He said that most people will come in to buy a gun and a box or two of ammunition for it...and he never sees them again. Some few others will come back in 6 months and buy another box...and that from what he's seen on a daily basis, 5% of the shooters are the ones that burn up 95% of the ammunition that's sold. He estimated that the average gun owner probably doesn't fire more than 50 rounds a year.
 
He estimated that the average gun owner probably doesn't fire more than 50 rounds a year.

Unless most people are buying ammo online because its cheaper. I usually only ever buy ammo from my shop because I spend so much time looking around I feel its only nice to spend some money. Buy all of my firearms from them, but ammo else where.

But its still highly probable that most gun owners don't shoot nearly as much as they should.
 
Unless most people are buying ammo online because its cheaper. I usually only ever buy ammo from my shop because I spend so much time looking around I feel its only nice to spend some money. Buy all of my firearms from them, but ammo else where.
I am the same way. I mostly shoot rifles, and buy most of my reloading components for those online (save for powder and primers which I buy locally to save on shipping). I purchase most of my loaded ammunition (mostly rimfire and shotshells) from the local WW and online, but typically buy a box or two from my dealer every trip, more or less as a sign of gratitude for his service.

:)
 
Smith and Wesson did a bunch of market studies in the 80s and determined that the average pistol sold in the United States was fired about 100 rounds by each owner, with the vast majority of revolvers being shot 44 times, and put in a nightstand.
 
Smith and Wesson did a bunch of market studies in the 80s and determined that [...] the vast majority of revolvers being shot 44 times, and put in a nightstand.
I don't put too much faith in that survey, but I do find it interesting that they picked 44, which isn't divisible by 6 or 5, the most prevalent capacity of the average revolver, but just so happens to be one box of 50 cartridges minus 6 to keep in the cylinder. Hmmm...

:)
 
I don't put too much faith in that survey, but I do find it interesting that they picked 44, which isn't divisible by 6 or 5, the most prevalent capacity of the average revolver, but just so happens to be one box of 50 cartridges minus 6 to keep in the cylinder. Hmmm...

:)
That is exactly what many people do. They don't even look at hollow points or anything else. They go to wally world or where they bought the gun, buy a box of inexpensive bullets, and shoot them to at least know what they got into. They save 1 magazine or cylinder full for defensive purposes. I bought a used gun from a widow. After her husband died and she decided to move to warmer weather, she let me go through his tools to see if I wanted to buy any. We chatted about hunting and guns, and she said he had a pistol in the drawer if I was interested. It was a Ruger Blackhawk 357, and it had 6 rounds of Blazer 158 grain jhp in it. She said she forgot he had it and it was in case someone broke into the house.

So I definitely agree that the vast majority of gun owners, mainly pistol, shoot very little out of them. That's why it's generally such a great deal to buy used guns. And most of these owners only want a gun that they can point and click, and they aren't going to spend a lot of time practicing. That's why I almost always recommend that they buy a revolver. They don't have the break in requirements of a revolver. A revolver can sit loaded for 10 years, and I trust it to fire all 6 rounds more than I trust a semi-auto to make it through an entire magazine after sitting for 10 years.
 
The argument that you need to spend X amount of time at the range and send X amount of ammo down range is bogus... you need to be proficient...

It depends what level of "proficiency" one wants to reach.

Could a person learn to draw, fire 3 rds to slide lock, reload and fire 3 more rds into the 10 ring of a B-27 at 7 yds target easily? Sure. It shouldn't take all that long, less than 100, if not less than 50 rds.

But could they do it in 8 seconds, start to finish? How about 5? 4?

I currently have a student that can do it.....until we put the 8 second time frame on it. (hence, the reason he's my student)

It's all a matter of how proficient one wants or needs to be.
 
On the other side of that same coin, a lot of practice and being a competition shooter doesn't automatically mean you're going to be able to defend yourself either. I listen and read a lot from all these "Drugstore Cowboys" who talk about all their shooting experience. I can tell by a certain vocabulary who these people are. When you are in a defensive situation, all bets are off. Most of these people who are so confident, have no idea what it's like to have your adrenaline race that high. To have your heart pound to the point where you really believe others can hear you. Where you're sweating and cold and scared. And hopefully, most people will never have to know that experience. In the last 40 years, I knew 2 people that were about as proficient as anyone could ever be with a rifle and pistol. It was more than a hobby to them. They shot just about every weekend. One was when I lived in New Jersey. He'd been shooting for at least 20 years. We went dear hunting. When he got a bead on the deer, he got total "Buck Shy". And believe me, if it can happen when aiming at an animal, it DOES happen when aiming at another human being. The other person was while I was living/stationed in Spain. I was deployed to the sandbox (middle east). Some snipers took some pot shots at a convoy we had. A guy I knew with us was security forces. But this was the first time he was ever in the real stuff. He froze up and sat on the ground behind one of the trucks. Nothing serious happened. Little pot shots was very common back then. But this guy with us totally freaked out.

Point is, practice is good. All my practice is with 3 shot bursts. I NEVER shoot less or more than 3 rounds when I practice with a pistol. I want muscle memory to automatically pull the trigger and fire 3 rounds at the center of mass of the person. I don't fire 1 round to see how accurate I am. Even with a new gun, it's 3 times quickly. But no matter how much you train, if you ever really have to pull that gun out, aim it, and shoot another person with it, then all bets are off. I train totally for accuracy. But no amount of training is going to keep you calm, control your breathing, lower your heart rate, and keep your eyes open. But if you can get through all the psychological issues, the training then comes in handy for allowing muscle memory to hit your target without thinking about it.
 
I got this response from MKS several years ago about cleanliness of HP pistols. I follow their cleaning regimen and have never had mine apart for over 5 years and many rounds. Still works fine. I also use the same cleaning procedures on my 995.


----------beginning of email ----------------
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2005 11:19 AM
To: xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: Cleaning Instructions


Dear XXXXX,

Although some customers who have Hi Point Firearms are capable of it, MKS recommends that you do not take the gun apart. The exploded view in the manual is not intended to be a detailed disassembly guide. It is really just to note the basic steps for those who feel qualified. The way MKS recommends to clean a Hi Point is to blow the inner area out with a mild aerosol solvent once or twice a year. (Of course wear eye protection). This gets out any accumulated grime and dirt that may have been attracted and held in there by the oil. Clean the barrel with a good bore solvent after you get home from shooting. This is all we do after thousands of rounds of shooting. Oil lightly, and the gun is ready for the next session of shooting. If you feel that you must take the gun apart, but need help, please phone the factory and talk with a mechanic there. They can be reached at (419) 747-9444 Mon.-Thurs. 7am-5pm EST.

Hope this helps!

PJJ
MKS Supply, Inc.
Marketer of Hi-Point Firearms


---------end of email
 
Unless most people are buying ammo online because its cheaper.

I suppose that could be a factor, and I even mentioned that...but this guy's experience predates the internet by a good many years. He closed up shop several years ago, but held onto his FFL via grandfathering, and he still dabbles in guns and ammunition. The statistics that he quoted still seem to apply.

Not everybody who buys a gun is an active shooter. That's the plain truth...hard as that may be to imagine. I met an old guy back in the day when NC only issued two deer tags. He renewed his license...as per his long-time habit...the day before the season opened. Deer was all he was interested in. The day he arranged his license, he also bought two rounds of .30-30 ammunition.

The day that I was present for this annual ritual, another guy at the counter asked him:

"Why only two rounds?"

The answer was straight from the shoulder.

"I cain't git but two deer tags."

The dealer confirmed that this had been ongoing for several years. He was an avid deer hunter, but aside from that, he had zero interest in shooting.
 
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