The importance of "gun fit" Your opinion.

[DeepSouth]

I hear all the time people saying things like, the gun just didn't fit me right, I just can't shoot it well, it just doesn't fit my hand, go handle them and see which one fits you you best. I see this mostly in auto pistol shooters and shotgun shooters, but I have heard these kinds of comments from all spectrum's of the shooting community, just not as prevalent with rifle and revolver shooters, or so it seems to me.

I will first say I do understand a bit of this is true for long guns, I have a friend who is a little over a foot shorter than me and has to fully extend his arms to bring my shotgun to his shoulder, obviously he needs a gun with a shorter length of pull. But apart form this one instance I have never another seen another case where I believe "fit" was a big problem.

For instance, up until three of four years ago I had a older Remington model 11 that was my do everything shotgun. Then I started duck hunting, I quickly figured out I was going to destroy that gun so I dropped a chunk of cash for a Beretta A391 (Xtrema) and guess what. I couldn't hit crap with it. I had went from a gun that I could nearly rap hand completely around to one that was like aiming a fence post! What did I do? I told my brother we had to start shooting some clays, I bought clays and two to three hundred rounds nearly every weekend for a summer and now guess what. I can hit pretty dang good with that Beretta. Now the old model 11, I can't hit squat with it, feels like I'm aiming a pencil when I try to shoot it.

What happened? Which gun fit me? The one I shot the most fit me best.

I've also done this with pistols. I was nearly completely a 1911 shooter when my wife wanted a XD. Being the wonderful husband I am I went and bought one. It felt like I was holding a softball, while trying to pull a trigger on a video game. I hated it. But I did want to get familiar with it, mainly so I could feel comfortable with her carrying it. So I shot it a pretty good bit just kind of reliability checking it and checking accuracy, playing with the laser that made the grip so huge. All total I probably put six to seven hundred rounds through it. I got to where I kind of liked it, another 500 rounds and I probably would have liked it enough to buy me one. Well, I finally turned it over to her and went back to my precious 1911's. They now scared me when I shot them, I mean hair trigger there (I keep mine 4 lbs..some less) Not mention it had such a thin grip. Well it didn't take me long to remember why I loved them so.

Again....What happened? Which gun fit me? The one I shot the most fit me best.

I have never had this happen with a rifle, not even a little bit. Every time I pick one one up it feels just like the last one. This may be because I almost never do any freehand shooting and when on a bench I can adjust easily. But I do hear serious rifle shooters talk about good and bad feeling guns frequently.

I don't shoot enough revolvers to know the difference but I have noticed that revolver shooters don't complain about feel, fit and grip angle nearly as much as others. They may all be very close to the same??

I will also say when I go to buy a gun the absolute last thing I think about is "How does this gun 'fit' me?" or "The grip angle is ........." The reason for this is because it don't believe it matters much. If it doesn't fit just stop shooting everything else for a while and shoot the heck out of it for a while. I'm thinking muscle memory perhaps. Soon enough you'll melt together and be like life long buds.

So now that I put my opinion out there I want yours, I sometimes think I'm the only guy out here who thinks this way, even though I have been right every time (in my experience). With the one exception of my short armed buddy shooting my long Beretta, with an extra inch LOP because of the Limbsaver. His normal shooting is with a Montefeltro, he hates my Beretta.

So what do you guys think?
Have any of you had similar experiences or have you tried to love a gun but even after thousands of rounds you can't become one?

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[M-Cameron]

everyone has different body mechanics......so everyone is going to have guns that wont "fit" them......

i know in my case....i had a rifle that wasnt shooting well for me.......and i couldnt really figure it out.....

then one day, someone much wiser than me, suggested i take an inch or so off the butt.....

i figure, "what the heck".....lop and inch off......BOOM!, rifle shoots 100% better......

before, it didnt feel 'bad' or noticeably uncomfortable......but once i cut it down and shouldered it....you knew instantly that was the problem....the gun seemed to fit like a glove.

 

[ForumSurfer]

I will also say when I go to buy a gun the absolute last thing I think about is "How does this gun 'fit' me?" or "The grip angle is ........." The reason for this is because it don't believe it matters much. If it doesn't fit just stop shooting everything else for a while and shoot the heck out of it for a while. I'm thinking muscle memory perhaps. Soon enough you'll melt together and be like life long buds.

I absolutely agree %110.

That glock 19 with that awful grip angle and clunky feel that I once abhorred after shooting a mag or two became an instant favorite once I shot a 300+ round session and just flat out quit whining about it. The grip worked and the angle wasn't a problem once I started running drills. Fondling it in the gun store and shooting under 20-50 rounds at a time left me wanting something else and unimpressed, but running the gun for a longer period and doing some action drills left me with a new pistol to add to my all time favorites. Curiously, the ugly little bugger turned out to be a fun shooter and my time shooting (and my handgun ammo stores) doubled.

Since then, I pay little attention to feel. I've found that I can adapt to pretty much all of them. Somethings like 1911 and BHP's have a special place because they just feel so right...but the rest aren't so bad either.

 

[ForumSurfer]

i figure, "what the heck".....lop and inch off......BOOM!, rifle shoots 100% better......

Long arms seem a bit different to me. It sort of has to fit or the mechanics are off.

But a pistol is something I've found that I can overcome and adapt to, unless we're talking about frankenstein-huge things like desert eagles or those big bore revolvers.

 

[DeepSouth]

Since then, I pay little attention to feel. I've found that I can adapt to pretty much all of them. Somethings like 1911 and BHP's have a special place because they just feel so right...but the rest aren't so bad either.

That's something I haven't thought of. Maybe some people are just more 'adaptable' than others??

 

[M-Cameron]

i think most of it depends on how you look at guns....

if you look at them more as tools....then ergonomics and 'fit' can be adapted to......kind of like using a shovel that may be a bit long or short for you, youll learn to get used to it.

but if you look at them more as sporting equipment......then its more important that they fit you well.......like a road bike......now Lance Armstrong could probably whip my butt with an off the shelf Schwinn..........but it takes a custom made road bike to win the Tour de France.


it really depends on the use, and what your looking to get out of the equipment.

 

[MJ_ATL]

Fit has something to do with it on pistols... If the grip is too fat to get your finger properly positioned on the trigger or to allow manipulation of the controls that's one thing. However, if you can do those two things then its a matter of fundamentals.

Rifles, as long as the eye relief on the scope is right and you can shoulder it and reach the trigger there shouldn't be any issue.

Shotguns I've found are different beasts... I had and old Winchester 1400 that when bird hunting I was extremely productive with. It finally got too shot out to even be worth the cost to repair and I bought a new Franchi... Had a terrible time hitting birds with it... went through a fitting process, changed the cast and drop and I'm back to my old self. It seems that i was looking over the barrel and not down it and I was as low on the stock as I could get my cheek.

 

[KDS]

I only buy guns that fit me well. This is the reason I don't have glocks. But, my goal is to be proficient with any firearm I come across, which is why I shoot my buddies glock every time we go to the range together. I figure that if I have a choice, go with whats comfortable. If I am picking up a weapon off the ground in an emergency situation, I better be able to use it.

 

[ny32182]

I agree that a very large part of what we think of as "ergonomics" and "fit" is really just familiarity and repetition with one gun or another.

There are some things that I think would be hard(er) to overcome for some people; example: I've never owned a 1911, but, in the brief time I've handled some friends' 1911s, the highest (palm connecting) knuckle on my trigger finger clicks on the thumb safety when I press the gun out on target. I am a lefty. I believe to shoot a 1911, I would NEED a safety that was only on the right side, without some kind of very serious grip lowering/adjustment. This is one rare example of something that I believe is a legit ergonomic problem with me and one particular design.

Many people rave over how much more comfortable the M&P grip is than the Glock. When I first went from Sig to Glock years ago, the Glock grip felt weird. Now when I pick up an M&P, the grip feels weird. It was getting better after just one 400 round range session with my M&P. I have no doubt that with just a couple thousand rounds, I could make the M&P feel very "normal". Side note: I did everything but the draw and the reload at the same speed with the M&P, my first time out with it, and I believe the draw issues were due to the holster and not the pistol. Grip angle, grip difference, everything "ergonomic" that people make hay of between the Glock and M&P, did not affect my splits, transitions, the very first time out with a new design. I threw a few shots low in the first 100 rounds, and that was the end of any visible difference caused by the grip angle.

Therefore I believe familiarity and fundamentals dominate a performance more than what most people worry about with ergonomics.

 

[ball3006]

I have two that have a fit problem. One is my Grandfather's Model 12. The butt is too long for me but I will never cut it down because it was his gun. The other is my Glocks. Since I bought them, I got involved in power lifting and my hands are too muscular to get a straight pull on the trigger due to my short fingers. I do check fit when buying a gun except C&R guns.....chris3

 

[Slamfire]

Been shooting small bore prone for about three years now. It is impossible to exaggerate the importance of proper “fit” in precision shooting. People pay $2,000 for stocks that have so many adjustment screws, it takes six months to get them all tightened up properly.

Handguns, darned if the bigger the handgun the bigger the grips. It is as if manufacturers assume only mutants with hands the size of baseball gloves shoot big guns. I have short stubby fingers and finding grips that allow my fingers to touch the trigger is a major effort. I traded off my Redhawk because I could not find a rubber grip under 14” in diameter. Or so it seemed.

 

[M-Cameron]

I have two that have a fit problem. One is my Grandfather's Model 12. The butt is too long for me but I will never cut it down because it was his gun. The other is my Glocks. Since I bought them, I got involved in power lifting and my hands are too muscular to get a straight pull on the trigger due to my short fingers. I do check fit when buying a gun except C&R guns.....chris3

of all the excuses ive heard for not being able to shoot a gun........i think this is the first time ive heard 'having to many muscles' used....

i suppose if youve got to come up with something....might as well make yourself look good while doing it.

haha, im just messing with ya.....

 

[ThePenguinKnight]

I agree with the OP to an extent, as I believe a decent shooter will be a decent shooter with any weapon if he practices the basics of marksmanship. If he sets about to adapt to a weapon, he will adapt to a weapon eventually, and probably even begin to like it (since he can finally hit what he's aiming at ). I also agree with M-Cameron a few posts up, talking about the differences of viewing them as sporting arms vs tools.

That said, my view is pretty simple: why make it harder on yourself than it has to be? When I was shopping around for a handgun, I looked at a lot of good ones that I know I would have loved. I chose the SW99 because I like the gun quite a bit, and because it fit me so well out of the box that the sights came up naturally aligned; pointing and aiming are almost synonymous with that pistol. Most of the other major brands don't even come close, and while I know I can adapt to them, I don't see the need to spend hundreds of dollars in ammunition to train myself to do what I do naturally with another pistol. Combined with the fact that I just plain liked the SW99 better than the competition, it was a natural choice. That pistol still comes up aimed where I'm already looking, and it's a joy to shoot.

If you have a gun in your house, learn to use it well regardless of how it fits you. But if you're buying a new gun, don't waste time buying something uncomfortable or that you don't like. Why make it harder on yourself?

 

[CoRoMo]

I've bought some expensive shotguns in the past few years, and I've read enough about shotgun fitting that I want to do everything possible to improve my performance when these SGs are on my shoulder. I've searched around a good bit and found a number of gunsmiths who fit shotguns to shooters, at least that's what they all told me. Thing is, when I actually show up at a gunsmith with one of the shotguns, they have me shoulder it and swing it about as they observe and measure this and that. Then I'm told, "Ah, it looks good to me. No sense in adjusting anything, you're fitted well enough". So technically, I don't believe these guns have been fitted to me at all.

Of course I find it easy to knock clay discs out of the air with my guns, but I still wonder if I would miss fewer and fewer if I knew for certain that these guns fit me.

 

[Hossfly68]

My first pistol was a full size .45cal Witness. Thick, double stacked grips and a good solid weight. I loved the 1911 though and finally bought one. I couldnt hit the broad side of a barn until I bought some Hogue grips for it. Then it was almost as nice as my Witness. My guess is that it depends on what you start with or what you're used to. You should see me firing my wife's little .380 or my .38 snubby. They feel like I'm holding a kid's toy cap gun.

 

[Old Shooter]

As long as I have a choice I will buy only guns that I feel comfortable with and "fit" me well. I admit there are times when you have to adapt but for me the 1911, Winchester model 94 and the Remington 870 all feel just fine to me. I do have others as well and I can shoot them about as well as the ones listed, but of the ones listed when I pick them up it's like sitting back in an easy chair.

 

[Standing Wolf]

I've never had a rifle or shotgun that fits me right. Some have felt right in gun shops, but not after awhile. I have a hunch it's me, not them.

 

[JohnBT]

They all fit right if you're average. That still doesn't mean some don't fit better than others. Trigger reach, grip width, grip length, etc. fit some people and not others.

I have XL hands with skinny-ish fingers, so I don't understand complaints about big pistols.

I don't need a power driver's seat on my car either, but I really don't miss the days of having a bench seat that only had one adjustment - it slid up and back on tracks. I remember my mother and her sisters "adjusting" to the bench seats. They had to sit on pillows to drive those '50s and '60s Chevys to see over the wheel. I was a 6' tall kid and thought it was funny.

 

[Frank Ettin]

A lot depends the type of gun and how you plan to use it.

• Handgun
  
  
  What's generally important with a pistol is that its size is such that one can grip it reasonably well aligned with the long bone of the forearm and still contact the trigger properly with the trigger finger. Secondary is being able to wrap one's primary hand sufficiently around the grip to properly control the gun.
  
  Trigger control is fundamental to accurate handgun shooting, so placement of the trigger finger on the trigger is core. For example, I have small hands and a short trigger reach. Therefore I simply can't use certain handguns, like large frame Glocks or N frame S&W (shooting double action) to the best effect.
  
  
• Rifles
  
  
  When taking the rifle class at Gunsite, I found having a rifle that fit me well to be a great help. We did a lot of snap shooting and shooting under time pressure. Being able to shoulder the rifle properly and quickly acquire the target was a very nice thing.
  
  
• Shotgun
  
  
  For wingshooting, I think good fit is critical. One doesn't aim a shotgun at a bird or flying clay. For best results, the shotgun needs to shoot where one is looking.
  
  Both my competition guns and the guns I use for upland birds have had stock work done so that they fit me properly. If I quickly and smoothly mount them, everything is lined up, and the shot will go exactly where I'm looking.

...Thing is, when I actually show up at a gunsmith with one of the shotguns, they have me shoulder it and swing it about as they observe and measure this and that. Then I'm told, "Ah, it looks good to me. No sense in adjusting anything, you're fitted well enough". So technically, I don't believe these guns have been fitted to me at all.

Of course I find it easy to knock clay discs out of the air with my guns, but I still wonder if I would miss fewer and fewer if I knew for certain that these guns fit me.

Sounds like you've never had a gun properly fitted. If you got one that fit well, you probably would miss a lot fewer clays or birds. Fitting a shotgun properly is a fairly complex and drawn out process.

I've had a couple of guns properly fit. First, the gun fitter used what they call a try-gun. This is a gun with a stock that is adjustable in all dimensions. The fitter would play with the adjustments until it looked right, and then we go out and shoot a few clays. After a little more fiddling with the adjustments, we'd try again -- and so on until we were both satisfied. Measurements were taken, and the stock for my gun was roughed out in those dimensions. We then did a bit more shooting to confirm that everything was correct, and my stock was then finished.

 

[Hangingrock]

I have two rifle rifles set up for across the course that are adjustable for position shooting. Other than that I’ve used the LP as is on standard factory stock. As for shoguns’ I chamfer the heel of the recoil pad to shoulder the shotgun more easily. Semiautomatic pistols the Glock grip angle is not problematic for me and I don’t have a problem transitioning to a 1911 style pistol. In my opinion grip angle is a non issue.

 

[oneounceload]

What happened? Which gun fit me? The one I shot the most fit me best.

No, the one you shot the most you adjusted yourself to - still doesn't mean it fit you properly. There is much more than LOP, especially for shotguns - pitch cast, toe, drop at heel, drop at comb all play a crucial role in a gun that fits properly

 

[mrt949]

Handguns are like gloves and shoes .If it doesn't feel right it will not be a pleasant experience.That's why they make autos with different style back straps or custom grips for revolvers.

 

[Strykervet]

The Beretta Vertec sure didn't fit me. I could squeeze the trigger DA as hard as I could and nothing would happen. I had to hold it funky to squeeze the trigger DA. So it was useless to me. I sold it to my buddy who loved it and didn't have that problem, so obviously it fit him.

I like Glock triggers vs. DA triggers. My 686 feels like an old friend (well, I don't feel them up all that often, but you get the picture).

Pistols are most definitely like a glove. Sure I could take one and get proficient with it, but if I don't like how it feels or works, I won't WANT to. I HAD to have a Beretta in the army, but I didn't WANT one. I was good enough with it, but I only carried it when I had to.

 

[CraigC]

Fit is extremely important, if you know what to look for. Buy and sell enough guns and you'll get to be pretty picky about what you can and can't adjust to. I shot Glocks and shot them well, long before I got my first 1911. What I eventually discovered is that the 1911 was simply a better fit for me than any other autoloader. The more precision and speed you need, the more critical proper fit is. Same with recoil.

It is never more important than it is with a shotgun. Shotguns have beads because they never fit just right. A well-fitted shotgun can have its bead removed.

Rifles are the same way. I can't stand a short and cramped pistol grip or a comb that's too high or too low. I have a beautiful Ruger 77MKII Standard with really nice fiddleback wood and polished, blued steel. It's pistol grip is just too short, curved and cramped. I have to slide my hand way down on the grip to get my trigger finger properly indexed. I have never shouldered a rifle that fit me as well as a Winchester Custom Shop model 70 .375H&H I looked at about 6yrs ago. It shouldered so beautifully and the sights came up just right, like it was made just for me. Unfortunately, its $3000 price tag kept me from bringing it home.

 

[Smokey in PHX]

I think we have all met someone who is a great shot with a particular gun. I hunted with a duck guide for several years. I can honestly say I never saw him miss a duck. I know that sounds strange. One time we had some high ducks coming in and he told me to try a shot but I didn't as I knew they were beyond my capabilities. He shot two shots and got both ducks.

There might be something to the saying to beware of the man with one gun. In other words the man has fully adapted to that one gun. I believe we can adapt to an extent but in shotguns fit is more critical than in other guns in my opinion.