The importance of "gun fit" Your opinion.

[Cop Bob]

OH MY GAWD.........!!!! THE WORLD IS COMING TO AN END !!!

I AGREE WITH EVERY POST.........!!!!!!

It is about your personal mechanics and fit... what it is, it is about repeatability and what will fit most naturally with your body..

With Pistols, it is the grip modification, and because each is a bit different, your minds ability to commit to memory that grip angle, where each and every time you pick it up, and lock it in, it is the the same. so that when you bring it to eye level, your sights are there without having to hunt for them.

With Shotguns, it is the same, it must shoulder quickly,length of pull and drop of comb must put the gun where you don't have to hunt for or adjust for anything. and repeat to the same points on your shoulder, the same cheek weld, the same focal plain.. it must be natural..

With Rifles, the cheek weld, the length of pull, the distance to scope, must be proper, without you having to hunt for the perfect sight picture.. it is there when you throw it up there.. All three adhere to the same basic principles... just the nuances are a touch different.. it all about natural ability to quickly and comfortably attain the proper sight alignment with out having to keep moving around to find it... or think about it.. it is just there.

The analogy about Lance Armstrong and the bike was SPOT ON... Any kid can ride a bike, just about any bike, but if you are going to park you butt on it and ride all day, and be competitive, or able to walk the next day... it better fit... That is why all midrange to upper end bikes have adjustable seats, seat posts, handlebars, and risers.. to make it fit...

 

[DeepSouth]

What happened? Which gun fit me? The one I shot the most fit me best.

No, the one you shot the most you adjusted yourself to - still doesn't mean it fit you properly. There is much more than LOP, especially for shotguns - pitch cast, toe, drop at heel, drop at comb all play a crucial role in a gun that fits properly

Okay I'll concede that the statement would have been better worded something like...."I adjusted myself to the gun that I handled the most, therefore even if the it didn't fit as best as it possibly could it wasn't enough to make a significant difference."

I am also fully aware that there is LOT people do to guns, especially competition rifles and shotguns. But I'm more talking about average Joe's guns, not competition guns/shooters. I just haven't seen (in my admittedly limited experiences) where it makes much difference for the average hunter/ sportsman. What I have seen make a huge difference is the amount of rounds down the barrel and the amount of time spent handling the gun.

Handguns are like gloves and shoes .If it doesn't feel right it will not be a pleasant experience.That's why they make autos with different style back straps or custom grips for revolvers.

I agree with the glove analogy. Like a gun, a glove that doesn't fit well eventually will, if you use it for a while you will break each other in and fell very comfortable.


I also started to bring the back straps up earlier. As best as I can tell they are a sales tool and nothing more. I have had several guns that had interchangeable back straps, and I can honestly say I have tried every back strap on every pistol I've ever owned and never been able to tell much difference in any of them. I always leave whichever one looks the best on the gun and never give it another thought, frankly I wish their were no such thing as interchangeable back straps.

 

[DeepSouth]

What's generally important with a pistol is that its size is such that one can grip it reasonably well aligned with the long bone of the forearm and still contact the trigger properly with the trigger finger. Secondary is being able to wrap one's primary hand sufficiently around the grip to properly control the gun.

I couldn't help but think about another of my experiences. I am 6'6" and 260lbs and I like the singles stack pistols, especially 1911's and Kahr's, while my wife with the tiny hands likes the massive grip on her XD40 with the CT grips on them. I guess were a little backward.

 

[Sooner1911]

Try being a left handed shooter who is right eye dominant. Shooting long guns and shooting pool are the only things I do left handed. I had a Weatherby Orion shotgun that I just loved, so much so that it was in my divorce decree. I had always wanted one, but I couldn't hit for squat. When I bought my Beretta 391 and changed the cast with the shims and shortened the LOP and it was night and day for me. Natural sight picture upon shouldering made a huge difference in my scores. I even got used to the shells ejecting to the right. Same thing with pistols. My brother is a Glock guy and I hate them. They feel funny and I think the triggers are god awful (to me). My 1911s on the other hand, feel right and point naturally and the triggers are great. Now if I could figure out why I like my $450 American Classic better than my 2 Kimbers and 1 Smith that cost at least twice as much, I would be a genius. Same basic gun, but for whatever reason I like the AC. I have never shot a revolver that I did not like, but the the N frame 41s and 44s were right on the ragged edge for my short stubby fingers. I shoot mostly from a bench with rifles so fit doesn't really come into play most times (at least to me), but as far as feeling natural my dad's (now brother's) old Winchester Model 88 in 308 is my all time favorite for off hand. Short barrel is great and lever action means it doesn't matter that I am a lefty.

 

[wanderinwalker]

I'm split on this.

On one hand, with something like a shotgun or a position rifle, fit is critical to good shooting. Try shooting prone for long-stretches with a rifle that doesn't fit reasonably close and you're probably going to walk away unhappy. And I can't hit much with a shotgun and I figure it's a lack of practice and not quite proper fit.

On the other hand, I can pick up almost any normal-sized handgun or rifle and make hits with it. I shot an offhand match earlier this spring with a Swiss K-31 and managed a score around 90% even though I'd only put maybe 5 rounds through the rifle before. With handguns I can jump from a Glock, to a DA revolver to a 1911 without really thinking about things as "important" as grip angle, trigger weight, etc. It's really just front sight and trigger press and the bullets will hit where that front sight goes.

 

[Hossfly68]

if I could figure out why I like my $450 American Classic better than my 2 Kimbers and 1 Smith that cost at least twice as much,

Cause it's just as pretty, shoots just as straight, and you paid half as much!!
Find a Witness though, and you'll pay even less, shoot even straighter and like it even more I'll bet. Sorry, I'm prejudiced. I do miss my AC Commander. That was a nice shooting gun.

 

[oneounceload]

Okay I'll concede that the statement would have been better worded something like...."I adjusted myself to the gun that I handled the most, therefore even if the it didn't fit as best as it possibly could it wasn't enough to make a significant difference."

I am also fully aware that there is LOT people do to guns, especially competition rifles and shotguns. But I'm more talking about average Joe's guns, not competition guns/shooters. I just haven't seen (in my admittedly limited experiences) where it makes much difference for the average hunter/ sportsman. What I have seen make a huge difference is the amount of rounds down the barrel and the amount of time spent handling the gun.

You are missing the point - it DOES make a difference, even for the average shooter.......instead of shooting 2 boxes to limit out, you only shoot one - because the gun FITS....instead of hitting 10 targets, you hit 23/25 - because the gun FITS

Gun FIT rules - if it isn't an extension of your arm - with your eyes closed, it doesn't FIT

 

[sm]

Important

I am old school and this thread was brought to my attention.

I still feel and always will feel gun fit is important. Just how I was raised, mentored, and in like turn pass this and others things forward.

As mentioned already, one does "adjust" or "wrap themselves around" a firearm, no matter if handgun, rifle, or shotgun. One can get good, pretty good, even darn good with a firearm.

Just, when things get serious, be this taking a class/training, or excited about game, or under stress, is where everything often comes unglued.

One does not have time to "wrap themselves" around the gun, when the instructor/training is pushing them, and they are tired, and have blisters, and he/she keeps yelling at them.

Nor does one under the stress of flushing quail, pheasants, rising teal or doves (grey missiles). Running game, from wabbits, to deer, to you name it, and having to get a shot off quickly, is another time where one finds the firearm is not an extension of them self.

Now folks that know me, know how old school I am about all this. Learn the correct basic fundamentals with a gun that fits you.

All shooting is, is doing the correct basic fundamentals, over and over and over again.
When one misses, it is because one or more of the correct basic fundamentals was not done.

So I was raised, mentored and such, to learn the correct basic fundamentals with a gun that fits. Get all this down pat, and continue quality practice.
When one gets to messing up, go back to the basics.

Correct Basic Fundamentals, learned on guns that fit, will often allow one to become good, pretty good, even darn good with guns that do not really fit them well, or models, makes, platforms they don't shoot often. Even under the aforementioned "stress" or "excited" situations.

No tool is ever better than the user of said tool. -anon

Young'un, one would be wise to have tools, including guns, be an extension of themselves... -Mentor

 

[DeepSouth]

Gun FIT rules - if it isn't an extension of your arm - with your eyes closed, it doesn't FIT

But you see that's my point. After you shoot it enough and learn it, it becomes "an extension of your arm - with your eyes closed" even if it isn't "fitted" perfectly.

After reading all the different opinions and ideas, I am coming to a basic conclusion. That being some people try to make the gun fit perfectly, or just buy a gun that really feels right. Others, like myself, tend to buy what we like then shoot it enough to become proficient with, to steal someone else's term we adapt to the gun.

This thread has been very helpful to me.
Thank you all.... I mean Ya'll.....Thank ya'll
DS

 

[sm]

Oh, I forgot, stuff changes...

As we age, so will gun fit. Just the way life is.

Not just physical changes getting taller, gaining weight..., also the fact we have, sickness, injuries, surgeries or disease, that can, and will definitely affect our abilities to shoot handgun, rifles and shotguns.

Arthritis is a very good example, as we have a number of members that can attest, what they used to could do, they cannot now. Many have changed the gun fit, often times stocks for instance on handguns, to lessen felt recoil, and to better index the gun. Meaning the gun is better fitted to them physically, which in turn will lessen felt recoil.

If something hurts you, the human body, being designed as it is, to protect itself, will do so. Flinching for example is the body trying to not only tell you "that hurts" also trying to protect you from the hurt.

Examples:
I was born with exceptional eyesight. I had this until early / mid forties. I never "really" learned to shoot with a scope for instance, as I could, and I mean I really could shoot a rifle at long distance with iron sights, really really well. I was raised/taught to shoot a bolt .22 rifle with iron sights.

I also noticed the front sights on handguns I had, had shrunk. I mean I recall a time they were much bigger, and sharper, but I don't recall ever putting any of my handguns in the dryer. *wink*

Shotguns: I learned to shoot without a front bead sight. In fact, often times, in serious competition, I on purpose did not have a front bead, or any mid bead on a shotgun.
Yes. I also did some serious bird hunting with shotguns without any front beads, or mid bead as well.

But...the shotguns fit me, and as I got bigger, the gun fit was changed to keep up with me growing, getting taller, gaining weight, etc.

I have had a few serious situations, where I could not do as I normally could.
Including No Recoil orders from medical folks. One time it was because I detached a retina.
Another was...well...let us just say I survived evil, but got busted up pretty good in evading evil that come full tilt boogie.

That time, I could not hold my 1911, forget trying to load the GI/Colt seven round mags. My K and J frames were "off limits" as well...except for .22 long rifle ones, as I was under No Recoil orders.

I used a Rem Nylon 66 that loaded from the buttstock because it was light, docs approved it, I got to where I could load the thing, ( because again, forget loading a magazine).

I had folks with me 24/7, as I was busted up pretty good and other reasons.

Oh the Model 29 car gun fit me good...I was sick about it. I busted that gun up pretty good in this dealie...the thought of shooting a .44 Mag was not on my list of things to do for a bit either.


Gun Fit, is not only for right now, also for later on, and what ifs.

We age. Just a fact of life if we keep waking up. Another fact of life is, life happens.
In the blink of an eye, one can find themselves as I and others have, not being 100%. All it takes is a car accident, slipping on a ice, having surgery for say carpal tunnel, anything.

I was raised, mentored, and I have to pass forward as passed to me. I have to, it is my code if you will.

There are reasons I share particular makes, models and calibers of firearms. Firearms such as single shot shotguns and rifles such as Marlin 60 and the aforementioned Rem Nylon butt fed 66. Revolvers, including .22 long rifle revolvers.

In the blink of an eye...

 

[9mmforMe]

I think it is a combination of body fit and the dimensions of the gun; and I'll speak mostly of handguns since they are my main interest in the world of shooting. I certainly have adjusted to other handguns over the years but some have honestly just fit me better. Now that being said, if I were to complain about a gun and not give it my all, that would certainly affect my shooting, so we know that it is psychological as well.

 

[CraigC]

After you shoot it enough and learn it, it becomes "an extension of your arm - with your eyes closed" even if it isn't "fitted" perfectly.

One can adapt to nearly any firearm but you will ALWAYS shoot better with one that fits YOU. Period. I think most shooters are so accustomed to adapting that they wouldn't know proper fit anyway. One must always find the balance between equipment and skill.

 

[mrt949]

Well I guess all us OLD FOLKS AGREE EVERYTHING CHANGES DAILY .As long as I can sit on the POT TO GO LIFE IS GOOD .

 

[waterhouse]

But I'm more talking about average Joe's guns

I think it is way more important for the average gun owner to have a gun that fits them. Average gun owners don't shoot much.

When you couldn't hit something with your shotgun you shot 300 clays a weekend for 3 months until you could hit something. That is way more time, dedication, and money than the average Joe puts into firearm proficiency.

I agree with you to some extent. I generally shoot thin guns better, so I own and shoot a lot of 1911s and HK P7s and the occasional Sig P225. I have to carry a polymer double stack gun for work . . . I don't find it comfortable to hold and I didn't shoot it well at first. The city spent about 60 hours and several thousand rounds to let me practice with it, and now I shoot it very well. It is clearly possible to train yourself to adapt to a gun, at least within reason.

For the average gun owner, my question would be "why would you want to?" My wife is not a gun person. Going to the range is not her idea of a good time. She does like having a gun for protection. When she first picked out a pistol, I took 20 or 30 used guns to the range and let her shoot all of them. She shot one the best, said it fit her hand, and so that is the one she got. She shot it well the very first time she ever picked it up because it fit her hand.

I'm sure I could have spent hours of training and lots of ammo money and lots of frustration and taught her to shoot any of those guns, but with hundreds of options available why not try to find a gun that fits you and makes you comfortable?

 

[JustinJ]

I've got fairly large hands. Small guns with long trigger pulls, like the Ruger LC9, are difficult for me to shoot well because my long fingers don't bend all the way back to the break point. My Glock 21SF on the other hand fits perfect.

 

[JohnBiltz]

When the Army went from the M16A1 to the A2 my marksmanship went way down despite it being a better rifle. That longer stock just made it a lot harder for me to shoot. I could never get comfortable with it. Its very difficult to adjust to something too big for you.

 

[hemiram]

I think gun fit is probably the single most important thing, period. Sure, you can adjust to anything if you do it enough times, but why would you want to? I mostly have handguns, and to be honest, I've always been more comfortable with revolvers, but I really like the CZ-75 grip over any other type of semiauto, with the non vertec Beretta 92 a close second. The 1911 grip is way too narrow, and deep. Not a 1911 fan anyway, so it all works out.

 

[DeepSouth]

I think it is way more important for the average gun owner to have a gun that fits them. Average gun owners don't shoot much.

When you couldn't hit something with your shotgun you shot 300 clays a weekend for 3 months until you could hit something. That is way more time, dedication, and money than the average Joe puts into firearm proficiency.

That is a very good point, one which I hadn't thought of. The average fellow probably would have either just missed a lot, being unfamiliar with the gun. Or possibly just sold it off for something that fit better. In either case the fit/feel would be very important, especially when buying a new gun.

You folks are slowly moving me towards the center.

 

[HankB]

I consider gun fit to be important. Now, unless the misfit is TOO extreme, most reasonably experienced folks can adapt to a gun that doesn't fit them well and shoot competently - but they won't be at their best unless the gun fits.

Every gun should just naturally "point" close to where it feels like it's pointing. In my case, most 1911s, BHPs, and Glocks do; most SIGs and many S&W autos don't. So guess which ones aren't represented in my safe?

Someone else may find exactly the opposite to be true - it all depends on their body mechanics.

Fit is also important for rifles, especially those with significant recoil. (The recoil of a poorly-fitting large caliber rifle is likely to smack the living daylights out of you.) And it's even MORE important - some would say critical - with shotguns.

 

[jrmiddleton425]

It is interesting the topic of muscle memory should come up. Yesterday, shooting my Colt 1911 and my Dad's Taurus 1911, the Taurus has a "speed bump" grip safety that felt so different from my Colt, I could only stand to fire two rounds and had to switch back to mine.

Accurate as all get out and put them where I was aiming, but because I didn't have muscle memory with the Taurus, I couldn't call my shots. For some people, with some guns, fit is EVERYTHING!

 

[mortablunt]

To me, feel is very important. The reason for this is that I view any firearm I purchase as potentially being used in a defensive fight. In such a fight, because I am not liable to be a professional soldier, I will react by instinct. Thus, a gun I naturally work well with is going to be a great asset. I won't buy any gun until I have felt it up, sighting along its bore, felt the trigger, and tried pointing it at a few spots. I know when a gun feels right and I can tell when a gun just doesn't work for me at all. Of course, I can correct and build skill with those too, but it takes longer and I degrade more quickly when I don't practice regularly.

 

[lucky-gunner]

I can adapt to whatever firearm is available if necessary. I do have a unique body and hand composition that prefers certain types of firearms. With all things being equal (practice time, ammo, inherent pistol accuracy, etc). The firearm that feels right is going to be the one that I shoot the best with.

The issue I have with your logic is that, under your rules there really only need to be one model of pistol. I'd compare it to a baseball player. They could adapt to a set bat length and weight, but given the differences in biomechanics of each player. Most players wouldn't do as well as they do with customized bats.