The Logic Behind The RKBA And Government Power

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"I hear a lot of talk about "living in the real world," in reference to arguing for gun control. That is an argument for the status quo only; gun control is not gravity, the world will not end without it. A total lack of gun control would not result in total anarchy."

Nobody said it would, point is that when we are referring to the "real world" we are simply referring to what is and what is not possible regarding firearm legislation. The ideals that many on here are promoting are not possible in the real world, thus they are wasting effort promoting ideals that are not possible. That effort would be better spent on issues we can effect like preventing a new AWB.

You know as well as I do that the NICs, full auto restrictions, SBR restrictions are not going away. You may feel they are unjust and unconstitutional but a majority of the American people, the courts and politicians disagree with you.
 
You know as well as I do that the NICs, full auto restrictions, SBR restrictions are not going away. You may feel they are unjust and unconstitutional but a majority of the American people, the courts and politicians disagree with you.
Click to expand...

The Supreme Court, however, does not disagree entirely.

You keep wanting to pretend that Heller is irrelevant. It is not.

Heller opened the door to several possibilities, among them the reversal of Hughes.
 
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Well I've learned a few things from this thread.

1) There are those among us who follow blindly the government's wishes to infringe on free people's rights.

2) When these topic come up from time to time,
it's usually the same people defending the government's
infringements of free people's rights and interestingly,
MOST of these same posters openly admit they work for said government in one form or the other.
(Corrections officers, some LEO and I dare say, some gun grabbing activists as well are included)...

3) There are those when asked specific questions, dodge, bob and weave.
They obfuscate, pull out straw men arguments and attempt to convolute
or otherwise derail the debate.

In short, you guys have lost the debate.
Your words (for the most part) are meaningless and you are indeed
NOT upholding your oaths to defend the Constitution of the United States.
(If such an oath is administered when you were sworn in to do what ever 'government job'
you have been employed to do)...

You guys have had over four pages to make sound arguments, but have failed miserably.

I hate to break it to you few who can not, or will not comprehend the words
as written in the Constitution, (particularly the 2nd A)...
But in the 233 years the words as written have NOT
changed in meaning. They have in fact, been bastardized by those who's end goal
seem hell bent on ruling over us in a manner that is in direct conflict with what
this countries OFFICIAL documents states will be the law of the land.

In this and similar threads the solutions to the governments failed policies,
concerning violent offenders have been address articulately by many.
Yet the same people won't acknowledge
the fact that it's NOT the 'tools' that are the problem,
it's the failed corrections/sentencing guidelines and social policies that are the problem.

To this end I must also conclude that those
pretending that gun control does anything other than impair honest
men from their own defense is either willful ignorance or open dishonesty.

I'm more inclined to believe the latter is the case. :rolleyes:
 
It's time to ask a simple question:

"How does the keeping and bearing of an arm or arms infringe upon the rights of anyone else, or cause harm of any sort?"

Even the act of arms being kept and borne by the most violent, conscienceless, abhorrent sociopath is benign, innocuous, and does no harm. Improper use of arms is what needs to be legislated. Prevention can only be accomplished by keeping offenders locked up under complete control of the state until such persons are adjudicated safe to reenter society or die. Assigning a sentence for such violations - other than death - with a specific term of years is folly.

Woody
 
christcorp,

I wanted to apologize for my earlier comments. I was extremely tired and couldn't express my thoughts properly. Just suffice to say that the moderator (ArfinGreebly) and I see most everything discussed here with completely the same viewpoint. His posts and answers to your thesis about how things are (and in your mind should be accepted) are where you and I disagree.

I would suggest that because most everyone (mod, you, myself, and others here) agrees violent, unrepentant, and not fully rehabilitated felons be kept locked up and or put down, the laws and penalties that judges work from need to change. That is something that the government can and should do.

I don't accept things just because that is the way they are........if they need changing, they need changing. I will continue to write, call, and vote for representatives that share like values. That is the only 'change' that I can agree with from our current President. Only by actively working to make these changes will any action happen.



Ruggles,

I hope and pray that you or anyone in your family never make a mistake by breaking a non violent felonious law. If your attitude of no forgiveness is that set in stone, then I really feel sorry and will keep you in my prayers even if you don't want me to.

Nobody said it would, point is that when we are referring to the "real world" we are simply referring to what is and what is not possible regarding firearm legislation. The ideals that many on here are promoting are not possible in the real world, thus they are wasting effort promoting ideals that are not possible.
Click to expand...

I guess that everyone should just give up and accept whatever the politicians and courts shove down our throats??? I thought this was "a government by the people and for the people". Did I miss anything??? When did the Constitution get thrown out? Man, with attitudes like that around, no wonder the RKBA along with the other items in our Constitution and morals are eroding.

We as Americans don't have to take it. Just look at the 'Tea Party' that just took place. It's by working and speaking out that people and ideas get noticed. Look at the civil disobedience in Iran over the last election and the unrest in Honduras. People all over the world are getting tired of being pushed around. I believe it is due to being better informed, educated, and then acting on it!!! Like I said earlier, I for one will continue to work at changing the laws and attitudes. I like the old movie line: "I'm mad as hell and I'm not going to take it anymore!!!!!!!!"
 
"To this end I must also conclude that those
pretending that gun control does anything other than impair honest
men from their own defense is either willful ignorance or open dishonesty."

I would tend to think that is because your are too stubborn or closed minded to consider anything but your own view on the matter. Your approval is not something I need or desire, nor does it impact my views in the least. My views are as valid as yours, you might not like that but it remains true non the less.

You attempts to name call and segregate people into neat little groups in your mind based on the fact they do not share your views is silly and incorrect. I neither work for any type of government entity (I work in retail management) nor am I gun grabbing activist.

http://fnforum.net/viewtopic.php?t=11580&highlight=

Notice the picture, name and the posting date, hardly the firearms of a gun grabbing activist. There are many more not in 5.7x28mm thus not pictured.

You have proven nothing at all, gloat as much as you want to it changes nothing about the truth. I wish you could conduct yourself more like a reasonable adult in your post but you continue to lash out like a angry child name calling and implying others are not being honest in their posts.

We are not going to have any positive outcome on this or any other thread with behavior like that. We should be working together not against each other.



"The Supreme Court, however, does not disagree entirely.

You keep wanting to pretend that Heller is irrelevant. It is not.

Heller opened the door to several possibilities, among them the reversal of Hughes."

I never mentioned Heller in anyway much less to say it was irrelevant. Heller was a much less divisive issue than any I mentioned above and Heller was as close a vote as you can get. I think that does not bare well for the removal or reversal of the noted regulations and laws, nor does Obama appointing future justices. I would rather focus efforts on working within that dynamic to obtain my desire goals rather than railing against it.
 
I've observed over the years the incremental infringements on many/all of our rights
by States as well as the Federal tyrants.

One that sticks out like a sore thumb is the fact
that the government keeps raising the bar on what is considered a felony.

Some of you assert that all people convicted of ANY felony
no longer has a right to own a firearm for their protection.

It's the government continuing to raise the bar
of 'what constitutes a felony' that is the problem here.
They've conveniently lumped all into one convenient group so as to deny ALL
these people their Constitutional rights.

Perhaps we need to have different classifications of felonies?
i.e. violent offenders, those who would do others physical harm...
Should indeed be treated differently than those who are classified as 'felons' who simply
broke some law that did NOT physically harm anyone.

In short, if you're a convicted rapist, murder, or one who has assaulted others with what EVER tool...
Be it fists, guns, kitchen knives or base ball bats et el.
THOSE felons should serve mandatory LONG sentences, and/or be put to death
in the case of murder.

Let me ask the three or four of you who support and 'trust' that the Fed has it's citizens concerns at heart.

Let's pretend YOU got in a car after a few beers and had an accident.
In that accident, you killed someone.
You are charged with involuntary manslaughter, because even though you only had a few beers,
the breathalyzer says your legally drunk.
(That's a felony right?)
Remember now this is YOU this happened to. OK?
(any of the three or four of you)...

Are you telling me that after your time in jail, the restitution that you pay to the
victims family, (for accidentally killing someone), the rehab programs you must complete
and the fines you pay...
That you would agree that YOU now can no longer own a gun for personal defense for the rest of your life?

And before you say (any of you)...
'Ah ha, here's one of those felons I'm talking about that want no gun control laws.'
I will tell you, I have never been convicted of a crime, nor spent any time in any penitentiary.
Of course the way things are going, soon a law will be passed that if I break wind outside my home
I will be classified as a felon (if convicted) and therefore denied my RKBA.

Ruggles, since you're here at the moment.
How about you take a stab at answering that question please.

The question is in bold above.

TIA
 
"I guess that everyone should just give up and accept whatever the politicians and courts shove down our throats??? I thought this was "a government by the people and for the people"."

We are a government by the people are for the people, they are the ones who put the officials in office who enacted the legislation you are unhappy with. If the "people" were unhappy with said legislation they would put folks in office to remove it.

"I for one will continue to work at changing the laws and attitudes."

I have absolutely no problem with that, in fact that is how the system is suppose to reflect the will of the people. This we seem to agree on 100%!

"I hope and pray that you or anyone in your family never make a mistake by breaking a non violent felonious law. If your attitude of no forgiveness is that set in stone, then I really feel sorry and will keep you in my prayers even if you don't want me to."

None so far but thanks for the thoughts. I also hope this never occurs but if it does then they will have to pay the price for their actions. I really in my heart have no issue with holding people accountable for their actions, if that accountability follows them forever then so be it.
 
This thread seems to have been co-opted by the Department of Redundancy Department. :D

Besides the excellent original post by Constitutional cowboy the best post was the use of the word "asshattery" actually used in a sentence. :D
 
Rabbit in the scenario your listed above I would tell you that without a doubt that if I choose to drink and drive (truly drunk or not) and if that choice resulted in the death of an innocent I should indeed pay a lifelong price for that crime. I have no problem with that in least. I have absolutely no business on the roads with your family if I am drinking, none at all.

I think we need to point out that felonies are not common, I know exactly 1 felon within my family, friends and co workers. One out of hundreds of people, maybe I am the exception to the rule.

If we are talking about trying to change the laws to allow select felons the ability to own firearms then count me out. That to me is a colossal waste of time and effort in both it's intent and in it's ability to be successful.

To answer your question, yes I should lose my rights to own firearms for the remainder of my life. I guess I would have to break out the bow.
 
"This thread seems to have been co-opted by the Department of Redundancy Department."

Truest thing posted here yet!
 
Ruggles, thank you for your answer sir.

I must add, I came to know a career felon who killed his wife.
It was not my choice to come to know him.
It was a female who rented a place on MY property who became his friend briefly.
This guy apparently was let out of jail after five years, only to stab a 16 year old boy
(on MY property at the tenant's home)
who was defending the virtue of yet another woman.

Tell me how a NICS check would of stopped this guy (a career felon) from using another tool
(the knife or any tool) to do his deeds?

The point most of us are trying to articulate is that these unconstitutional
laws a few of you seem to support have been ineffective in preventing or even curbing
violent crimes and are nothing more than infringements on all FREE people's 2A rights.

Some of you say. 'Change the laws'.
I can say I'm sure most would agree that
we need to change those laws, but adding more laws that do infringe
on everyone's rights is NOT the answer.
Never has been and never will be.

I'd submit that LE, judiciary personnel and corrections officials with the backing of the people,
should indeed hold our politicians to the fire and MAKE them reform laws that ensure
these violent people will not be out on the streets.
If we let them out we have failed. NO... The government has failed to uphold it's charter to defend,
uphold and protect the Constitution of The United States.

I guess that begs to ask.
Why are we letting violent people out of jail in the first place?
 
Rabbit; I can't say exactly what I think of your last two posts, because it would be deleted anyway. But I can say that it is extremist. YES. And that is part of the problem. There are some people here, yourself included, that believes if "Society" wants certain rules/laws/boundaries/etc... that it's an infringement on our rights. Sorry dude, but there's a LOT OF SPACE between no laws at all and the government infringing on out right. You just happen to refuse to recognize that. (There's a difference between society and government - Society is "WE THE PEOPLE" agreeing or wanting certain rules/laws/etc... and petitioning our representative government that we democratically elected to put such rules/laws/etc... into place. As compared to a dictatorship government that is making such decisions that are AGAINST the will of the people).

In your example of the drunk driving. While I don't agree that because it's a felony that he shouldn't be allowed to own a gun later in life when he's released from prison; I DO BELIEVE that he should NEVER be allowed to have a drivers license again. EVER!!!! And if the felony was a crime where a weapon (Weapon is defined as a tool used with the primary purpose of which to inflict harm or cause death) was used; then the felon upon release, should NOT EVER be allowed a gun again in their lifetime.

But we are speaking of hypotheticals and the "What if World". And when people respond that we are just "Accepting what has become" or "I guess that everyone should just give up and accept whatever the politicians and courts shove down our throats???" That is extremist. And the reason it is extremist is because those saying these statements ADMIT that the current laws, policies, etc... need work and aren't addressing the real problems. But their ONLY ARGUMENT is to abolish the gun (Control) laws. You can see this as a chicken or the egg first scenario if you want; but you can't take away ALL GUN CONTROL if you leave the current social problems in place. If you truly want to FIX the problem; then stop bitching about your 2nd amendment rights (Which have NOT BEEN INFRINGED ON); and fight your representatives, or better yet; RUN FOR OFFICE; and implement MANDATORY SENTENCING; Life/Death sentence for personal violent crimes to other citizens; and fix the judicial system. If you fix that, then there would be NO NEED for many of the gun laws. But stop whining about we're ACCEPTING the "Status Quo" or "Accepting what had become". You have accepted the EXACT SAME THING. The only difference is that some of us want to fix the PROBLEM first, then the laws/rules/etc... become unnecessary. While others want to abolish the rules/laws/etc... which does absolutely NOTHING for fixing the problem.

And I really have to reiterate that there is a BIG DIFFERENCE between SOCIETY wanting laws, rules, policies, etc... put into place and the GOVERNMENT forcing laws, rules, policies, etc... on the people. You just don't like that the PEOPLE have agreed on certain rules, laws, policies, etc... and that you are in the minority. This isn't the government doing it. It's society doing it. That's the difference between our form of government and that of those in many other countries. Now it's definitely possible that many people in SOCIETY have been B.S'd, lied to, conned, or mislead into believing false information in making their decision and providing their support. That's where you need to get involved in the political process. Sorry, but writing your opinions in a forum or blog doesn't count as doing anything. And that is exactly what MOST people are doing. I am very active with my representative and senators; as well as local government. As long as the problem is in the judicial system, and criminals are released into society, and as long as there are differences of opinion on WHERE one person's rights stop and another person's rights start; there will ALWAYS be a need for certain socially accepted norms, rules, laws, etc... And this "Can" include the subject of guns/firearms. As you fix society's issues, many of these laws/rules/etc... can be eliminated.
 
Motion To Close

Gentlemen, I move to close the thread.

Unless there is something new and fresh that can provide some as-yet untapped insight?

Yes, I could close it without asking, but I figured I'd give those who wish an opportunity for closing remarks.

Anyone?

Do I hear a second?

 
Sounds like a plan to me. :banghead:

edited to add:
I should of stayed out of this after my post #25.

My suspicions have been pretty much confirmed.

Peace all you extremists. :D
 
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Closing

Thank you all.

Waterhouse,
. . . I would still love to hear the name of a Founding Father who made gun control laws.
Click to expand...

That will have to be a separate thread.

This one's all done.

 
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