The Miami Shootout. You're thoughts?

[megatronrules]

The Miami Shootout. Your thoughts?

I was reading up on this. It seems like a real mess occured out there. From what I can gather, The FBI brought handguns to a rifle fight, and got beat bad
Platt was a dead scumbag who refused to just die and do everyone a favor. The 9mm cartridge was crucified for its "failure".
Im no expert, but it seems that 9mm really did a lot of damage to Platt. I sat here and thought about something though.
Why did the Feds go after these guys without rifles or subguns?
These guys were stone killers.They were always known to have long guns with them too. It seems like a bad choice in tactics. Im not putting the LEO's down. They were in a hell of a spot and what they did was nothing short of heroic. Yet I have to ask the question about the whole long gun issue. What are you're thoughts on this?

[Spelling error in title edited by Matt G]

 

[Hkmp5sd]

I think the FBI agents underestimated the BGs. They thought that once they hit the sirens, flashed their badge and yelled FBI, the BGs would surrender instead of fighting it out. After all, it was 8-2 in favor of the agents.

IMO, if one or two of the agents had an AR/M16 or Mini-14 type carbine of their own, the end would have been fewer injured and dead agents. Platt's Mini-14 was the deciding factor in how well the BGs fought. The shotgun of Matix was not even a factor.


Of course, it's easy to be a Monday morning quarterback.

 

[cheygriz]

Typical FBI operation! Piss poor training and doctrine. Even poorer supervision, (if indeed there was any supervision at all) and even poorer policy! What the marines call a **cluster...&*&^..*** well you get the picture.

Bad mouthing of excellent ammunition. Got to have something or someone other than the bureau to blame it on. Multi million dollar, totally useless "ammo study," determines that "lo and behold," if the 9mm SILVERTIP had been a "MAGIC" bullet, the FBI would have won the fight. Millions more spent to develop "MAGIC" bullets.

Still no closer to "MAGIC" bullet than we were before.

Well thought out and proven doctrine of designing bullets to prevent overpenetration and protection of innocent bystanders goes out the window. Current Law enforcement ammunition designed to kill the BG, AND three or four innocent people behind him.

WOW! Thanks to the FBi For some real progress.

 

[AK103K]

I think this shoot out totally dispells the show COPS and proves that if your determined and dont lay down, there is a good chance you can prevail. They will have you believe you cant win, but this, and the CA. bank robbery, amoung a few others, proves that it isnt quite so. We have been programed to believe that if your shot, your dead, or at least incapacitated, and cant fight or continue, or so the TV, movies, and those who wish to control you, will have you believe. Truth is, just look at the animals we hunt. A deer will run untill every drop of blood is gone from him, and still go farther. He does this because he doesnt know he's dead, he just runs till he physically cant go any further and drops. If all the "bad guys" in the world did this, the cops, and all of us for that matter, would be in a lot of trouble. Agreed, the good guys prevailed in the above examples, but it could have easily turned the other way, especially in Miami. I think the "expected" response from most police is "conditioned" compliance from most people, when they encounter someone who is willing to fight, especially someone who knows how and gets to it quickly, the game is on, and depending how it starts, I dont think the good guys are always going to win. Then again, depending on the circumstances, you may one day find yourself on the wrong side of this equation, just because of your views on guns, or a non compliant additude. Your not dead till your dead, and then it wont matter, cause you wont know it.

 

[Ian]

Some of the major errors committed by the combatants:

Only 1 of the 11 participants had body armor on (Agent McNeill). If you know a gunfight is likely, there's no excuse not to wear armor (this goes doubly for the FBI agents, who were trying to take down a pair of bank robbers known to be well-armed, military-trained, and ruthless). Many of the wounds inflicted in the fight would have been far less effective had body armor been used.

None of the participants had trained for one-handed andweak-handed shooting and reloading. During the fight, 4 of them had to resort to it (Platt, Mireles, McNeill, and Hanlon). The most obvious example of this is Platt's last offensive with the .357 Magnum - having been shot in his strong arm, he used his weak hand to fire 3 shots nearly point blank at either Agent Mireles or McNeill and missed with all 3. The FBI agents also exhibited little of no evidence of team tactics training. Several agents should have been working to flank Platt and Matix while others provided covering fire.

Revolvers are not well-suited for extended gunfights, as they have low capacity and are slow to reload. Why 4 of the 9 FBI agents would choose to go into a felony car stop with revolvers as primary weapons (a 2 1/2" 5-shot S&W, in McNeill's case) is beyond me. Agent Manauzzi had a Remington 870, but he chose to leave it in the back seat of his car. Worse, he had his primary (and only) weapon (an S&W revolver) on the front seat of his car rather than in its holster. When his car crashed, it was lost in the car, leaving him unarmed.

All 5 participants with secondary weapons used them. They were of little effect, because they were generally snubby revolvers - but they were used. A properly prepared combatant would have chosen a more efficient backup weapon (and trained a lot with it).

Everyone with a semi-auto ran out of ammo for it. Platt emptied all his Mini-14 mags and had to switch to Matix' .357. Dove died with his S&W 459's slide locked back. Risner ran out of mags for his 459. Risner emptied his revolver and couldn't find any more ammo. The only reason the Grogan, Manauzzi, and Hanlon didn't run dry was that they were killed or severely wounded before they had the chance to. If you're going into a gunfight, take more ammo!

The only rifle in the fight was Platt's Mini-14, and with it he was responsible for 6 of the 8 FBI casualties. If the Agents had been armed with rifles, they would have had a much easier time making hits (and effective ones) on Platt and Matix and would likely have suffered fewer casualties. If that Mini-14 had been a .308, the Agents might well have been defeated completely - the hit on Mireles arm would probably have killed him, and without him his partners would have been in deep trouble.

 

[megatronrules]

Wow! You guys know you're stuff ! I think AK103 has some very good points. You almost never see anyone resist an LEO, except to run. Running is not resisting though its evading
Platt was not a man who understood what surrender was it seems. Then again when you go over the line the way those guys did surrender must not even be an option anymore. Whats the point? As far as the NH Bank shootout. Those guys could have walked through the cops that were there on scene,before all the other arrived. They wasted time blasting away at everything. Not very smart, then again neither is bank robbery
Some people have no brains it seems,though the body armor was a smart move. They also brought lots of rifles which is never a bad thing either.
All in all some very interesting points on the Miami shootout. I thought Platt had a Mini 14. Wasnt sure though. It said .223 rifle in the article i read. That narrows it down!

 

[Double Naught Spy]

The FBI guys who effected the stop were NOT prepared to do battle with Platt and Matix. The original plan had been to have agents up an down the road where they expected the robberies to potentially be and then to call in the heavy boys in SWAT gear, which they did. The only problem was that the boys who were in the SWAT gear were also patrolling in a different area and could not make it to the location before the fight started. They rolled up about the time that last couple of shots were fired.

So all the unprepared aspects that IAN referred to seem to be correct, but the reason for the lack of preparedness was because the agents in the cars really were not ever planning on being the ones to do the stop. Unfortunately, poor planning was bad for them.

Add to that aspect that two officers lost their guns during the various car crashes. One lost his only gun and so he was a non-combatant for the fight and basically served as a witness. Another had to go to his 5 shot backup worn in an ankle holster.

Of note, anytime the bad guys are really prepared, cops and good guys suffer and suffer badly. With no disrespect to LEOs intended, when they come across the guys, as in the N. Hollywood Bank robbery or Miami FBI shoot, the officers/agents explain the shock and confusion against being in a situation where the bad guys not only don't fear them, but aren't going down and that really throws off the game plan. I really like what Clint Smith had to say to a handgun class I took concerning bad guys and their responses during armed conflict, "They don't read Guns & Ammo or Combat Handguns and they have no idea that when they have been shot that they are supposed to fall down and stop fighting." Of course, multiple layers of body armor helps with that as well.

Suicide bomber terrorists, kamikazi pilots in WWII, and goal oriented bad guys who have no definitive plans for their retirement years will always be some of the absolute worst types of bad guys to go against as they are not afraid to die, going into situations with a sort of binary mentality that either they will live and get away (goal oriented bad guys, not suicide bombers) or die. There is no in between answer for them.

Thank about it.
Platt and Matix.
North Hollywood Bank Robbery guys
Whitman in the UT Bell Tower in the 60s.
Bonnie and Clyde

And so on.

 

[Deadman]

http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs7.htm

Probably the main point I've taken from the Miami shootout (as far as I understand it anyway) is that if Platt had pulled back and increased the distance from himself and the FBI agents, he could well have survived.
Whereas pushing forward with suppressive/offensive fire on his own, while devestating to the agents, pretty much lead to his death as it was easier for the agents to engage Platt.
Afterall if he had been even 50yards away or more from the agents, their short barreled handguns and 1 shotgun would not have been anywhere near as effective as his Mini14.
If he had been about 100yards out, the agents would have had no chance considering how determined he was.

And if Platt was wearing a ballistic vest, that would have greatly changed the course of events as well.

 

[Hkmp5sd]

More about MAJOR mistakes....

1. None of the FBI agents was wearing a rifle rated vest. Two agents were wearing pistol rated vests, McNeil and Risner.(McNeil's vest wasn't a factor anyway because he was hit in the neck and paralyzed.)

2. Grogan, SWAT trained and the best combat shooter of the group, lost his glasses during the felony carstop. He was completely blind during the shootout. A strap and spare glasses is a must for those with poor vision.

3. The 5 FBI cars involved contained a total of 12 shotguns. Only 2 of them were accessible, the other 10 being locked in the car's trunks. Mireles exits his vehicle with one shotgun and McNeil is hit whenever he makes the decision to go for the shotgun in his back seat and stands up in front of Platt. As a side note, there were 5 other FBI cars involved in the rolling stakeout that did not arrive at the scene until the shooting was over. Two of those cars contained MP5's.

4. Both Hanlon and Manauzzi unholster their primary handguns prior to the felony carstop, placing the guns in their laps. Both guns were lost during the collision resulting in Hanlon being armed only with his 5-shot snubbie backup and Manauzzi being unarmed for the entire fight.


Deadman,

Platt was hit by a shot fired from Dove's 9mm as he exited his car. This was a fatal wound. He was a walking deadman (no pun), regardless of where he went.

 

[DeltaElite]

Poor tactics, training and mind set, met up with well trained, tactically inclined men who refused to die easily.
The FBI technically won, but their losses were heavy.

 

[bad_dad_brad]

Never bring a knife to a gunfight.

Never bring a handgun to a rifle fight.

This incident clearly shows how truly powerful a rifle is in the hands of a determined opponent, especially if the other side only has handguns and a shotgun.

I do think the 9mm round got a bad rap from this un-fair comparison, but the up-side was the 9mm self-defense rounds of today are clearly superior to back then.

Funny, in my State, they are trying to ban so called "assault rifles" like the AR-15, but the ban does not include the Mini-14, unless I put a Choate pistol grip stock on it that is. Like that would make diff! Gun laws! A lever action .30-30 in the hands of the B.G. in this situation would have been just as effective.

 

[Zundfolge]

Whenever I argue with antis their response to my claim that the 2nd amendment is there so we will have the means to overthrow a corrupt government is to say that armed civilians are no match for the military or other authorities.

I site the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising and the Miami Shootout as examples of how outnumbered civilians put up a good fight.


on a side issue, there are 2 good things that came out of the whole thing; 10mm and .40S&W (even if we don't agree with the FBI's "blaming" of the 9x19)

 

[COHIBA]

there was nothing miraculos about the shooting. nothing "gone wrong". no amount of supervision or bigger bullets would have helped.
the main thing to be learned is what i learned 20 years ago about pistols.
start tape...
"A pistol is an intermediate weapon. its sole existance is to allow one to fight to a rifle or shotgun"
read it
learn it
live it.
people MAY go down from pistol fire that does not put them OOC (out of commision) forever.
get to the smoothbore as fast as you can and end the fight. dont hunker down and exchange little slow bullets with little fast ones.
everytime i pull the trigger on a 12 gaOOBK rd . i put 9 .30 cal nickle plated bullets at 1325 fps downrange. 2 shots=a glock mag.
you do the math.

 

[DrDremel]

It shows that semi-autos are not superior to revolvers, it shows that people that can't shoot won't win. It shows that Govt never admits they are wrong or insuperior.

 

[Hkmp5sd]

nothing "gone wrong". no amount of supervision or bigger bullets would have helped.

I think the lack of proper prior preparedness and poor tactics played a far greater role in causing the carnage to the agents than the firearms being used.

They knew they were going up against BGs that used a .223 carbine and had no qualms about killing. Everyone should of had rifle rated vests. Three agents were SWAT members (Grogan, Dove and Risner) and could have carried MP5's or M16's if they wanted. The remaining shotguns should have been accessible. If Grogan had a strap on his glasses, his fire along with Dove's fire may have killed the BG's before they could exit thier vehicle. Only one agent took effective cover and was therefore the only agent not wounded. Unholstered guns resulted in the loss of two primary weapons. Not carrying a backup left one agent useless after losing his primary weapon. The agents were not trained on one-handed reloading nor one-handed use of shotguns.

And the big tactical error was Grogan/Dove not dropping back while following the BGs and having local cops set up a roadblock farther ahead with overwhelming numbers of LEOs and weapons.

 

[Pilgrim]

Whenever I argue with antis their response to my claim that the 2nd amendment is there so we will have the means to overthrow a corrupt government is to say that armed civilians are no match for the military or other authorities.

Go down to your local police or sheriff's department and assess how easy it is to bottle up two-thirds of the entire department up at shift change.

The antis who pooh-pooh the ability of an armed populace to stand up to the armed might of the United States forget that the armed might of the U.S. needs a secure base to operate from. Also, just how much territory do the antis think the 82 Airborne can pacify and secure? Delaware?

Then ask your antis how much territory can one police officer pacify and secure? How about his living room and front yard? Which is about all he will want to secure if things get stinky.

Bruce

 

[Deadman]

Platt was hit by a shot fired from Dove's 9mm as he exited his car. This was a fatal wound. He was a walking deadman (no pun), regardless of where he went.

You're right, I didn't quite catch onto that point from the last time I read about the Miami shootout. However if Platt had been wearing a ballistic vest that 1st wound might not have been fatal.
Plus he may not have been shot as many times as he was, if he fought from a greater distance.

But one disconcerting aspect in regards to Platt is that although he suffered the most number of wounds he still had a heart beat after the gunfight -
' Arriving paramedics came to the aid of the FBI agents first and then shifted their attention to Platt and Matix. According to Dr. Anderson, paramedics found no signs of life in Grogan, Dove or Matix and no first aid was attempted. Whereas, Platt appears to have still had a heartbeat because paramedics inserted an airway tube and began administering intravenous fluids. Platt died at the scene without regaining consciousness '

Platt ready for a gunfight or not was one determined sob.

 

[Apple a Day]

One thing I am still a bit fuzzy on: How/why did the agents sandwich the BGs' car in between themselves and all end up crashed into a tree?
With the shooters that close together it seems that a free-for-all is inevitable with everyone getting a chance to shovel out lots of punishment to everyone else before enough time passes to bleed out. Everyone ends up shot.

 

[Hkmp5sd]

One thing I am still a bit fuzzy on: How/why did the agents sandwich the BGs' car in between themselves and all end up crashed into a tree?

There was a single file line of cars with Platt/Matix in the lead, followed by the cars of Grogan/Dove, Hanlon/Mireles and finally Manauzzi.

When McNeil ordered the felony carstop, the Grogan/Dove car swung around to the left and pulled in front of Platt/Matix. Hanlon/Mireles pulled alongside the left of the BG car and Manauzzi closed up directly behind them.

Manauzzi rams the BG car from behind. This causes the BG car to spin out to the left and the Hanlon/Mireless car to spin out to the right.

The BG car is now facing in the opposite direction and Matix begins pulling in back onto the road. Manauzzi spins his car around and rams the Monte Carlo, crashing it into the tree and coming to a stop door-to-door with each other.

As Manauzzi bails out the left side of his car, McNeil arrives and stops his car perpendicular to the left rear of Manauzzi's car.

The Grogan/Dove car has turned around and pulled up behind the Monte Carlo.

The Hanlon/Mireless car collides with a block wall on the opposite side of the street following the initial collision and they exit the car from that point. They are about 3 car lengths behind the Grogan/Dove car.

At this point Orrantia/Risner arrive in another vehicle and stop across the street from the Monte Carlo. They are the fartherest away of all agents involved in the shootout. They were about 6 car lengths behind McNeil's car, forward of the Monte Carlo.

So at the start of the shooting, the only ones really on top of each other are Platt/Matix and Manauzzi (there were some civilain cars parked in the area that are show on some of the drawings).

 

[JohnKSa]

The FBI guys who effected the stop were NOT prepared to do battle with Platt and Matix.

I think everyone agrees with that statement.

The original plan had been...

These guys were smart enough to know that plans go out the window when the action starts. Or, at least, they should have been.

They were out looking for Matix and Platt. They knew M&Ps M.O. and what type of weapons they preferred. They were hoping to catch them right before, right after, or during a robbery. They had access to a wide variety of long guns and ammo. And yet, they were carrying handguns almost exclusively and few of them even had a rational plan for reloading.

This was a perfect case of poor planning, shored up by overconfidence and poor tactics.

 

[Marko Kloos]

The Miami Shootout. You're thoughts?

"Sometimes you get the bear, sometimes the bear gets you".

No revelations of tactical truth here, just a bad day for the Feebs.

 

[BigG]

They forgot to adhere to the Six P principle. See The Killer Elite for explanation by Robert Duvall.

 

[Blain]

If you were going into such a shootout and you knew the details, would you bring a combat shotgun or a rifle, and why?

 

[Blain]

No preferences?

 

[Hkmp5sd]

would you bring a combat shotgun or a rifle

I'd prefer a M4/M14 or a Mini-14 over a shotgun. There were two shotguns brought into play and the Mini-14 still did the most damage. If Risner, across the street and behind cover, had a carbine with 30 round magazines, Platt wouldn't have did as much damage.