The Patrol Rifle Concept

[ChristopherG]

Nuances of power and penetration aside, I very much think of my 1894c in this role. Light, handy, fast enough to run with the AR15s at local matches for the first 10 rounds, shoots flat enough out to 150 yards with the right load, with plenty of potency for the stated problem--a man-sized target. Lyman aperature sight with a 'hunting' aperature. It really is a fast handling, fast shooting setup (plus, I get to shoot cowboy action with it once a month).

Only deficiency in my view is it ain't mag-fed. With a rimmed revolver cartridge, I understand WHY it ain't mag-fed, but I still kinda wish it were. To me, at least a 10-round mag should be a requirement of an IDEAL 'patrol rifle', or whatever we decide to call it. Maybe a 'citizen's rifle'?

Oh, and why not an AR15? I just don't like semi-autos. That 7600 would be tempting with another couple inches of barrel and M14 mags, but there's the price issue still.

How about 'emergency rifle'? I actually think that's pretty close to what most of us are talking about.

 

[Correia]

Sorry Boats, I sell a whole lot of rifles to cops, and only a couple of my local departments actually buy and issue the rifles. The majority are bought by the cops on their own dime.

Sorry guys, but even for those of you who don't like semi-auto military style rifles (especially the AR) they own this market for really good reasons.

For whoever said that you could keep up with your local AR shooters for the first ten shots, your local shooters must suck. No offense intended, but AR style rifles own 3gun and IPSC type rifle competitions for a reason also. Under 25 yards I can do 4-5 aimed shots a second, and I'm not really that good.

All of that "tacticool crap" that some of you like to harp on, actually works really well. You should try it some time. I've posted about pretty much every accesory you can hang on a black rifle, and they all have a mission specific use.

 

[Ivy Mike]

Cosmoline, you're talking about really hot, heavy loads. This probably isn't something a police officer would be likely to use.
You even said yourself that these loads only meet and possibly exceed the .30-30 inside 100 meters. You aren't really gaining much that a full rifle round can't do.
For "social" work, you still have better options. The 5.56 is great at closer range assuming you're not trying to shoot through too much. At closer range, the officer may very well choose his/her sidearm and .40 or .45 has certainly shown itself to be a strong performer. A .40 caliber hole is still a .40 caliber hole no matter what makes it.

I'm not discounting that a .44 magnum is better from a long gun. I'm simply saying that rifle cartridges are better from long guns and the numbers and history are there to back that up.


JShirley, officers enter homes for all sorts of reasons and the weapon should be tailored to that purpose. As far as a 12ga being too powerful...well, I guess that depends on what you're hoping to do. The 12ga has been stopping people in their tracks for a long time. Its hard to argue with 8 or 9 .30cal pellets. I think saying the AR is superior to the 12ga for antipersonnel is highly dependent on what you are using it for. You want long shots, the AR is the weapon you want. For anything closer, you're gonna have a hard time beating the performance of a good load of buckshot.

My military-style assault rifle comment was simply a jibe at some police departments who arm themselves with such weapons and then speak out against citizens having them.

 

[Cosmoline]

Cosmoline, you're talking about really hot, heavy loads. This probably isn't something a police officer would be likely to use.
You even said yourself that these loads only meet and possibly exceed the .30-30 inside 100 meters. You aren't really gaining much that a full rifle round can't do.

What you gain over a rifle cartridge is less muzzle flash and less recoil. Plus increased capacity. That said, I'd take either a spikehorn or an 1894 for these purposes. The pistol cartridge carbines and 20" or less .30-30's both have over a century of history in the sort of truck gun/deputy's trunk/meat gun I'm talking about. I love them both. I just think folks make a mistake by dismissing the concept of firing handgun cartridges through a carbine. There is *LITERALLY* much to be gained.

As far as AR's, I believe some of their popularity may also lie in price reductions and the pressures of SWAT teams to be tacticool. But while I don't see anything per se wrong with them, they're not really doing anything in practice that a Winchester .30/30 or a CZ 527 couldn't be doing just as well.

That brings up what may be another aspect of this class of rifles--ECONOMICS. The rifle should above all be AFFORDABLE. $1,000 wizbangs need not apply.

 

[Correia]

Cosmo, there are a whole lot of things that any of the Evil Black Rifles have over a lever gun, and I like lever guns.

1. Shoot lots faster.
2. Hold lots more bullets.
3. Load lots faster.
4. Easier to maintain. (Strip a Winchester 94, then strip an AK and let's compare)

Even on economy, if you go from an AR to an SKS, AK, or KelTec, you're coming in at the same price point as a Marlin.

I totally disagree that you can do any of the same things with a bolt gun that you can with an EBR. Take a bolt gun to a 3gun match and try to clear a house with it.

Sorry man, the term is taken, and no matter how you spin it to fit your personal choice, it isn't going to work. That would be like me saying we need a new class of automobile, called the Sport Utility Vehicle, and declaring that they need to be 2wd, 2 door, hatch backs, with good gas milage.

 

[JShirley]

Clean, I never suggested the 12ga is too powerful. It is not.

The AR-15/M16/M4 IS superior for use on antipersonnel, regardless of practically any way you want to use it. About the sole exception might be something like shooting engine blocks, or through some other barrier, and then, you DO NOT want buckshot.

It's actually QUITE easy to argue with 8 or 9 .30 caliber pellets. IF you're using a shotgun, a .70 caliber rifle is much more effective than shooting your target 8 or 9 times with a .32 ACP, which is what you're effectively doing.
Buckshot performance? Please. I've seen things shot with buckshot. I've shot things with buckshot.

I no longer use buckshot for anything serious, just pests like armadillos at close range. Ask Larry Correia about the utility of buckshot...he's fired thousands of rounds of 12ga.

Yeah, I don't especially want to be shot with anything, but having grown up with a shotgun in my hands, and having fired thousands of rounds through the M4 carbine, I can say with great certainty I would prefer the M4 and civilian clones to any shotgun for antipersonnel use. I would further prefer, if I was a LEO adminstrator, that any officers under my command be equipped with one instead of a shotgun, because the shotgun is a liability(at least, with buckshot). A shotgun can be inexpensive, and a shotgun can be loaded with a variety of rounds, and so, if you have a limited budget and are in an area with large dangerous animals, the shotgun is the obvious choice of the two.

If you are not, a carbine-length AR15 or M4 is the OBVIOUS choice.

John

 

[odysseus]

For whoever said that you could keep up with your local AR shooters for the first ten shots, your local shooters must suck. No offense intended, but AR style rifles own 3gun and IPSC type rifle competitions for a reason also. Under 25 yards I can do 4-5 aimed shots a second, and I'm not really that good.

That reminds me of the frist time I shot an AR styled rifle as a teenager. Even to 100 yards, I could keep drilling rounds in the inner circle on irons with awesome control emptying a 30 round mag, and at 100 yards the .223 trajectory is pretty flat.

I know a lot of people talk down easily about the AR, and some of it might be valid (over accessorizing). I have a lot of other rifles I love and outside of a scout m-14 I might reach for, my AR is what I would for the topic this thread is about, especially because of how light it is.

 

[Ivy Mike]

I think you'll find the pellets coming from 00 Buck to be moving considerably quicker than .32acp velocity. Thats gonna pack a wallop when it hits.
http://www.steyrscout.org/terminal2.htm

This shows the pattern for #4 buck, but underneath states that #1, 00 and 000 buck are much better penetrators and would provide 8 or 9 .33cal holes all at once and in a small area. That is a devastating wound. There is a reason police still carry shotguns to this day. They work and they work well. I'm still not quite sure where you are going with this. Early on in your post, you mention shooting engine blocks and then seem to question the performance of buckshot. You then advise buckshot again for large dangerous game. Which one is it man? Is buckshot good against a good size predator (like a man) or isn't it? Make up your mind.

No doubts that the 5.56 is a good round, but it all comes down to what you want it for. I'd just as soon carry a shotgun against a person at close range as I would an M4. I like my odds with either weapon.

Then again, I've already put my choice forward.


and finally, getting back to the handgun caliber carbines. You do have a lot to gain over the same handgun round in a handgun. When you compare it to a rifle caliber, things don't look as good. I'd also have a hard time believing that a larger bullet, carrying nearly the same velocity and energy (from a smaller case) is going to recoil any less.
We all understand that handgun calibers can be improved with longer barrels...but its important to understand that the improvement should be measured against the same round in a handgun. When you compare them to rifles, its a wash. And then, you look at warming up that rifle cartridge and leave the cute little pistol round in the dust.

I think SWAT teams need faster firing weapons for some of their duties. We aren't discussing that. We are talking about a patrol rifle for the average cop in a car. It should be light weight, chambered in an effective intermediate cartridge and have a reasonable capacity. A semi-auto is nice and I feel that its almost mandatory. Not having to totally reaquire your sight picture can be a big help should you need to fire again.

 

[Cosmoline]

I totally disagree that you can do any of the same things with a bolt gun that you can with an EBR. Take a bolt gun to a 3gun match and try to clear a house with it

With the right bolt action like a 527, NO PROBLEM. Just yesterday I was pelting some AR boys with brass from mine. How often do you get complaints about rapid flying brass over a bolt action?

 

[355sigfan]

QUOTE
Sigfan, how often have you carried your AR15 into home? Wouldn't you be better suited by a handgun or shotgun?

My feeling is that the AR platform gained so much favor with police because it was a military arm. The guys who carried it, liked its light weight and decent wounding capability when they used it in combat.

That combined with its cool looks and said vets moving into positions of power ensured adoption of the AR platform.
END QUOTE

Actually I have used my Colt 6920 on all my entries since 2000. Its manuverable enough in a home and its far superior to the handgun for stopping power. It is less likely to overpenetrate when compared to handgun rounds. The only negative is the muzzle blast and I usually use a set of peltor electronic muffs when doing entries.

The reason the Ar15 is so well suited to leo use is active shooters. My first department Bethel PD had the first school shooter in the country. The officer responding used an issue 870 and missed with both his rounds before the shooter gave up. An ar15 or simular semi auto carbine in 223 is an ideal weapon for responding to an active shooter. If you have a large crowd and one shooter in the middle you do not want to use buck shot. The 223 has limited penetration is easy to hit with. In my opinion its the ideal tool for the job.

JShirley is right about the larger calibers if you use tap you can control their over penetration concerns. At least that is what I have read. I have not tested 308 tap rounds for penetration in various building materials.

As for the pistol its an oh crap gun. You only use a pistol in a gun fight because you have too and a long gun is not with in reach. If you have any warning at all get a longgun. I prefer rifles but a shotgun is still much better than a pistol.
Pat

 

[355sigfan]

QUOTE
With the right bolt action like a 527, NO PROBLEM. Just yesterday I was pelting some AR boys with brass from mine. How often do you get complaints about rapid flying brass over a bolt action?
__________________
END QUOTE

If you feel their equal try this drill from our sert qualificaiton. A5 5 yards with the rifle at low ready fire 2 rounds to the chest of an ISPC target and put one in the head in 1.5 seconds. Thats tough with a semi auto in 223. It aint going to happen with a Bolt gun.

Pat

 

[JShirley]

There is a reason police still carry shotguns to this day.

Yeah. They're cheap. They can also rationalize that it's easier to hit target because of shot spread, (it would be even easier to just use something with less recoil and better sights) and can further rationalize that shot is safer to use because it loses energy so rapidly (it's also true that shot spread is a liability).

You then advise buckshot again for large dangerous game

Where? Point that out.

I do NOT advise buckshot against anything large. I mention shotguns in connection with large dangerous game BECAUSE OF SLUGS. (Isn't that bloody obvious? I just decried buckshot for anything large. Sheesh.)

 

[355sigfan]

QUOTE
No doubts that the 5.56 is a good round, but it all comes down to what you want it for. I'd just as soon carry a shotgun against a person at close range as I would an M4. I like my odds with either weapon.
END QUOTE

Sorry have not got the quote function mastered yet. Its a personal choice issue. I prefer the M4. The shotgun is effective at stopping people but so is the 5.56. The shotgun works well from 0 to 25 yards with buck and out to 50 yards or more with slugs. But the carbine works well form point blank range to 300 plus rounds depending on the shooter. The carbine is easier for most to shoot well. The shotgun is actually one of the harder guns for officers to master. Very seldom to I have an officer fail a rifle qualification. But a lot of officers have problems passing the buckshot and slug qualifications. Shotguns have their place. I still have a Vangcomped 870 with MMC sights, surefire forend, side saddle and a tac sling in my patrol rig. Its loaded with Breneke slugs. I have it for use against Bears and Moose. I also have it for vehicle stops. The Breneke slugs perform better against vehicles and windshield glass vs the 223. Other than that I use my Colt.

I don't like pistol caliber carbines but I will conceed their better than no long gun at all. They do allow officers to place rounds far more accurately than officers armed with pistols.
Pat

 

[JNewell]

Anything their mouseguns can do at 200yds, a .30-30 levergun, .308 crankbolt or M-14, or M1 Garand can do just as well or better.

No anything. Load up with 1k of ammo and sprint that 200 yards with your rifle, ammo and the rest of your "patrol load."

One thing .30 rifles excel at is shooting through cover - but I'm not sure that's an essential element of the original mission.

On AR-15s and doo-dads: skip the doodads and go with either a bone-stock A1 configuration or if overall length is an issue a 16" A1-profile barrel. This configuration is light, maneuverable, accurate, and for most real life purposes has bettter sights than the A2. I like red dots just as much as the rest of you, but the A1 (with an A2 post) is very, very good and adds nothing to carry or break, if weight must be kept down.

Two other rifles do come to mind, though I think they're well behind an AR in A1 trim: a Win 92/clone in .44 Mag (about 5.5#) and an M1 carbine (don't remember the weight - 5# even maybe?). The M1 carbine is so light you can hold it at arms length and fire it singlehanded, as if it were a handgun.

 

[355sigfan]

Not that he needs my support because it is a credible knowledgeable man but Jshirley is right on the money about buck shot being comparable to shooting somone with a 32 auto 9 times. At close range buck is more effective because its clumped together and acts like a slug. But once the patern spreads the effectiveness of buckshot drops off dramatically.
Pat

 

[355sigfan]

QUOTE
On AR-15s and doo-dads: skip the doodads and go with either a bone-stock A1 configuration or if overall length is an issue a 16" A1-profile barrel. This configuration is light, maneuverable, accurate, and for most real life purposes has bettter sights than the A2. I like red dots just as much as the rest of you, but the A1 (with an A2 post) is very, very good and adds nothing to carry or break, if weight must be kept down.
END QUOTE

Actually You really need a light for target identification at least if your talking a home defense type rifle. And Irons are ok but their slower than a good dot and their a lot less usable as the sun goes down. Irons are for back up only in my opinion. You don't need all the do dads but you do need a good light a good sling and a quality low power optic.
Pat

 

[drinks]

Any you youngsters ever heard of the Win . 1910 ,.401 SL carbine?
Was a favored police and especially sherrif's car weapon from the 1910's up until the ammo dried up in the '70's.
Short, light, moderate recoil, good handling, easy to clean and WOULD put a man down at 100m.

 

[Eleven Mike]

Though I qualified as an expert every time with the M16A2 while I was in the Marine Corps, I never really got to like it. Never had any jamming or breaking problems or any other of the perceived ills of the design, it just doesn't feel good to me. For some reason, I took a liking to the AK design.

That's probably because you're a real man. That's rare among Marines, but it does happen. When you want to be a real, big man, you'll get a .308 or some other real rifle caliber.

Unless you're a woman. Don't know.

Rifle bigotry and interservice rivalry brought to you by Eleven Mike.

 

[Coronach]

Company! Don Nomex!

 

[355sigfan]

I have a lot of respect for Marines. They have been some of the best shooters I have taught once they become leo's. I have seen a lot of Army experts that could not hit a barn from the inside.
Pat

 

[ghost squire]

Cosmoline, I love the idea! However I would broaden it to include military purposes as well.

Your specs state 1 shot stop at 100 meters, I believe that may be a tad demanding for its purpose, as I envision this niche to be used at night, for ambushes, home defense, hit and run raids etc. Sorry if that sounds a bit commandoish, as I said I'm thinking this could be a SHTF/military type weapon.

However, going strictly by your specs I'm going to have to say that the AR-15, AR-180/AR-18, and Mini-14 fill that PERFECTLY. Ideally I would have an AR-180.

Loosening them up a bit, as I said realistically its going to be used at much shorter ranges 99 percent of the time, and also dispensing with the non select fire requirement, I would go with PPSH or Suomi, which are heavy but short and handy. For a more compact and silent option, any one of the suppressed MACs, or a suppressed mini-uzi.

More in the theme of what you are thinking of, but disobeying your specs, would be a short barreled FAL or M1A type weapon, with a 16-18 inch barrel. With a vortex muzzle break it would be loud, but the muzzle flash should be pretty minimal.

Also, if you want first round stop capability at 100 yards, this can be achieved with any caliber gun by using a rifle grenade

 

[LAK]

I think CZ-527 in 7.62x39 with 2X or 3X scope might be pretty close to ideal. Perhaps chambered for a 7.62x39mm-based cartridge like the 6mm PPC would be even better.

Come to think of it, a Scout clone employing the little CZ actionwould be perfect IMO.

CZ have an opportunity here; an affordable little "Scout-type" rifle that could have it all - except Col. Cooper's recommendation of cartridge. But the 7.62x39 is ample for any human target, and the 6mm PPC loaded with the better heavier bullets would be no less effective.

-----------------------------------------

http://ussliberty.org
http://ssunitedstates.org

 

[Cosmoline]

I don't know about the scope. The CZ is such a compact rifle, any scope is going to be in the way. I also wonder why anyone would need a scope. The irons are first rate.

 

[Zach S]

I'd prefer an AR15. Other than my thompson, that's the longarm I have the most triggertime with.

M4 or Government profile 16" barrel, Surefire 9P mounted to the FSB, flat top with an optic (Aimpoint or EOtech), A1 BUIS with a same-plane aperture, collapsable stock, and a SOG armory buttpad. Pretty much what I have now, with the exception of the optic (I have an A1 carry handle w/ no optics), and it would be chambered for 5.56 instead of 9mm...

Since one of you are gonna ask anyway, the range I shoot at is pistol-caliber only, so I built an AR in 9mm since I could only afford one. I meant to build up a 5.56 soon after, but that hasnt happened yet. Considering the price of the PMC frangible ammo, my 9mm has paid for itself, or came close.

 

[Correia]

John, I still load buckshot. For some guns, for use inside my house only. S&B 12 pellet patterns really well out of my 12k and my 870.

Mostly because at twenty feet, (which is about my longest shot) the pattern is only about three-four inches across. I'm not aware of many people shot in the torso with 00 at conversational distance who didn't immediatly stop doing whatever it was they were doing to cause them to get shot. Plus I can do 2 to the body, 1 to the head with my Saiga in .7 seconds.

Outside of that, buckshot loses too much energy and doesn't penetrate enough. A shotgun is really a 25 yard weapon against humans. We've got way to many guys on this board who've shot thicker skinned game with buck (pigs) and have gotten negligable penetration. That is what slugs are for.

Outside of inside my house, I'm going to take an autoloading carbine in .223, 7.62x39, or .308 depending on my mood and if I want to coordinate my gun with my clothing. It is a fashion war, gentlemen. I'm about the biggest shotgun fanatic that I know, and I still would prefer to use a carbine if I needed to fight.

Cosmo, I'm telling you man, I can give you about 1,000 different 3gun stages, LE rifle quals, or basic rifle training drills, and you would be real hard pressed to find 1 that a carbine, iron-sighted, bolt gun would win over an auto in a capable shooters hands.