The potential of a Henry Big Boy as a HD rifle

So in states with a 10-round limit for semi-autos and a bullet button for magazine fed semi-autos, there are other options:
The Mossberg scout-style rifle in .223. They use AR mags but, since they are not semi-auto, they do not require a bullet button. The bolt action can be cycled almost as quickly as a lever and you can do a mag swap as fast as a conventional AR.
But you can do that one better. Just build up a 'featureless' AR as permitted by the CA DOJ. Go to the calguns.com web site but essentially the AR must have a fixed stock, no pistol grip and the barrel end must not be a flash-hiding type. There are posts of such conforming types and kits to deal with the grip/buffer change. So long as your AR (and the gun ends up looking a bit odd, but it still works exactly the same) meets those specifications, you do not need a bullet button. Additionally, if you own any pre-ban 30 round magazines, you can use them in such a configuration. I built one and I think it looks pretty cool. Add one of those quick change barrel things from Dolos (I have no affiliation) and you have a conforming AR that can be reconfigured from a .223/5.56 to a 300 BLK in 15 seconds and use 30 round mags if you legally own them.
Again, check with calguns.com and do some reading. I am neither an attorney, a gunsmith or an FFL (insert perfunctory Holiday Inn reference *here*) so make sure you are following the rules.
GL,
B

 

I had to go and look up "bullet button"..... My jaw hit the desk at the shear magnitude of the idiocy.

Many of us Canucks go on and on about how much better it is in the US with the Second Amendment and all the rights. But it sure seems like it's a case of the "death of a thousand cuts" that you are going through down there. And while we Canucks all stand around and cry in our pale ale over OUR laws they are nothing compared to what California and a few of the other states have invoked. I'm not sure that the other more open states make up for the failure in places like California.

Anyway the GOOD news is that lots of folks will once again learn about the fun and efficiency of a good lever action or pump action gun.

 

If you want this rifle and are willing to practice so it becomes second nature to use I say go for it. You said it best, at some point you will save up for something else. Keep in mind if you do run out, you can port load.

 

It would also make for a pretty good whoop-ass club too! ! ! !

 

I'm sure and they do.

 

For me, I find the 44 mag as problematic for HD if you live in an urban area. The problems is over-penetration.

True Story: Several years ago, my daughter was living in a house in Ft. Collins. A 44 mag was accidentally discharged in the basement of the house next door with the muzzle angled upwards. It penetrated the outside wall of the house where it was discharged, the wall of the house my daughter lived in, an interior wall of the bath room in this house (with tile on it for the bathtub surround), and finally came to rest in the opposite will of the tile surrounding the bath tub). It traveled ~60 ft and through two exterior walls and one interior wall backed with tile.

While the cartridge would really mess up a bad guy if you hit him, the bullet would probably just keep going, unless you were very carefully with your bullet selection.

If you go this route, I would get the short barreled version and choose the bullets very carefully (including some ammo tests).

My own preference in this application is a 12 ga. shotgun loaded with 7 1/2 shot in a heavy load. At close range, it will hit like a single mass on something softer than dry wall.

Note that my opinions are simply that, and there are many different points of view.

 

well, youre talking about california which is not representative of the country, no bullet buttons where im at, i can typically own whatever i want in any configuration i want holding as many rounds as i feel like

 

I have a Henry 45-70 that I bought for my son and would have no reservations using any Henry lever gun for HD. Tube loading? Pfffft, no problem. If you're in a jam and shot everything in the tube, you can throw 'em in the ejection port.

 

I have a Henry 45 70 that has been not been very reliable at all and I would not trust it in any kind of defensive situation. The first ten rounds did not load smoothly at all and for a couple of rounds the lever wouldn't close, causing me to unload it and reload it again. I assumed the problem was because the gun was new and needed to be broken in so I brought it home and cleaned it, then returned to the range on another day. For my second attempt at the range I loaded it with three rounds and, once again, the lever wouldn't close. I unloaded it, loaded it again and chambered a round. After firing the second round I noticed that the magazine tube slid forward about three inches past the end of the barrel. I unloaded it and contacted Henry RAC as soon as I got home. I was almost immediately provided with a UPS return slip and I shipped the rifle back to them at no cost to me. They had the rifle less than two weeks when they shipped it back to me. A heads-up would have been nice before shipping the rifle back to me but Henry didn't feel it was necessary. I could have also done without them adding an extra hole in the buttstock when they screwed the rifle into whatever gun vise they used to hold the rifle while doing the repairs. I'll take the rifle to the range this weekend and see how it shoots but I'm a little skeptical. I live in Alaska and planned to use this rifle bear bear defense. My plans have changed. I have no confidence in this rifle and plan to sell it as soon as I'm sure it's functional. I doubt very much that I would purchase another Henry rifle.

 

Want to make your head hurt even more? Look up our "safe handgun roster"

Theres only about 900 handguns that we are legally allowed to purchase online or via ffl to ffl. Non roster items have to be face to face transactions.

Even the colors matter to the doj. We can get a black glock, but not an fde. Each color has to he submitted for testing like it's a completely new and different gun.

And we just lost our lawsuit in march against it. Now going through appeals to be hopefully heard by the 9th circuit.

 

Is California so bad on guns you're reduced to complaining to a CANADAN?

 

Would the use of 44 spl in place of 44 mag change anything appreciably other than the power level? 1 more in the tube?

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NU6ZKQrfr9M

This video shows a 44 mag gel test with 180 XTP, 1600 fps and 12" of penetration.

Other vids show about 20" of penetration with 240 grain bullets. I would use 180 or lighter.

 

While not my first choice in the HD role, I would feel more than sufficiently armed if I had to use my Rossi Model 92 in .45 Colt. Short, compact, and quick onto target it would certainly get the job done if called into action.

 

Sheepdog mentioned practice and getting intimately familiar with the gun. A very astute piece of advice.

How many have this image when they are thinking of home defense....

 

I have an 1894 in 44mag I bought for the camp, people or bigger. I never thought about what I would do it 10 was not enough.

You can shoot 44 specials, but they can be harder to find and you might find cheaper 44 mag. I reload. For revolvers mags are cleaner then specials.

As for over penetration, that is a problem with alot of guns in an urban area. I'd go with shotgun and birdshot.

 

I don't even remotely understand the conversation about loading gate vs tubes. I'll bet I can load a tube just as fast as a gate, especially when totally stressed out and under fire. In reality if you have dumped the whole load and are still fighting then you probably don't have time to reload anyway. And where are you carrying all of the extra ammo? In that situation I would probably just be single loading thru the ejection port until I could hole up and reload in relative safety.

Some scenarios are so remote you really don't need to spend much time thinking about them.

 

Why are we not watching videos of CAS shooters reloading their lever gun?

 

So do the sort of reload that .22 tube feeders use in speed competitions and that we did in the '60s when plinking at the dump.

Find a bit of tubbing the same diameter as the inner magazine tube of your rifle, the part that holds the spring and follower. cut the tube to a length to hold the number of rounds you want plus enough to cap one end. Drill a small hole through both walls and centered near the open end. Load with cartridges. place a bobby pin straight leg through the hole and crinkled edge out side to grip th outer side of the tube. Loop a bit of string or thread on a key ring to the closed end of the pin. Wow if you are a kid this is a plus for looking like a grenade pin.

When you need to reload, completely remove the inner magazine tube. Place loading tube you have made in the end of the outer magazine tube. Pull pin and allow ammo to fall into outer magazine tube. Reinsert inner mag tube and lock it. Work action to load chamber. Continue to March

Takes less time to do than describe. Folks get their Appleseed Rifleman award using this technique when using Marlin 60s and such.


Mean while, Remember Col. Cooper? He called lever guns in his carbine classes something like "Brooklyn Specials" as the best choice for folks that could not have for legal reasons a semi auto. He once said they did well in his classes.

Larry the owner of Midway likes a Marlin 336 in .30-30 and has a short video.

With in my life time at one point the most common back up rifle in LEO use in the non high population areas was a .30-30 lever gun. Lots of places only began to replace them in the 1980s when they could get M-16A1s from the feds basically for the cost of the paper work. Little 40 man department near here got 60 M-16A1s that way. Many have since been modied out the same way lots of Black rifle folks do to be basically M-4s with permanent carry handles either by individual officers or slowly and bit by bit by department bulk buys.

What ever you do practice with what you have. Be sure you know the laws of the use of deadly force in your area. Consider where every round is going when you shoot it. Take the NRA Personal Defense in the Home Class if possible.

Good luck and be safe.

-kBob

 

Apparently I've got the "Oprah" or "Dr Phil" effect on folks? From what I read about the California laws it could well be describing the mythical Land of Oz. And I mean the one with Dorothy and the witches, not the southern continent. So I'm not surprised to see FMJBT venting to anyone that will listen and nod sympathetically.

Still, your reaction gave me a good chuckle to start out the day....

A few too many I suspect.

Most of the time if one or two rounds are needed the fastest option is to just dump them one at a time into the open ejection port and close the lever, shoot, repeat. Once the magazine is used up I'd suggest that this is the fastest method while under the clock or in a tight situation.

Second best once one is in the chamber and situation permitting is to pick and load through the gate while the rifle is still in the ready position with however many rounds can be manipulated easily on the one hand at a time. This way the shootist is prepared and ready to simply interrupt the loading by dropping the hand held round(s) as a threat situation comes up. A tube gate magazine does not allow for this sort of intermediate option. It's pretty much an all or nothing sort of deal with the rifle down in a handling position and the tube extended or removed.

But in a "bump in the night" situation let's face it. If the home owner needs more than what's in the magazine it may be time to hit the big red self destruct button on the wall and head out at a full sprint, pyjamas or buck starkers though they may be.....

 

Just as a note......

I once had to make an appearance out side in my then apartment's lighted parking lot with rifle in hand to prevent two women from being kicked to death.

I had only time to pick up the rifle and go and no time to cover my self other than my tiny whities, jockey shorts, girl panties (what my boxer wearing Dad called them) or very brief briefs.

I was later told by a witness that the sight of a breech clotted, angry, and shaved gorilla likely had as much effect on breaking up the occasion as the loaded Assault rifle. The Deputy next door was on his way out and stopped when he saw me, to see if he really needed to get involved. After all was cleared up (the women off to a shelter and the guy IDed and warned to turn himself in for treatment and he did, I and the deputy checked) the Deputy almost laughed his own pants off.

OOOK! OOK! GRUNT! OOK! ....I mean breech clotted angry shaved gorilla indeed!

-kBob

 

I have fired a few Henry lever actions and I hate them. There is so much drop in the stock it is impossible to get a good cheek weld on the stock when firing. And I really hate buckhorn rear sights. They cover up too much of the field of view. I much prefer the Marlin 1894.

I actually have an 1894 in .41 mag, but for home defense I prefer a Glock 21 with a flashlight hanging off the front or a Remington 870 shotgun with an 18.5" barrel and extended magazine. Both are far more reliable than the Marlin, which can hang up if the lever is not worked with enthusiasm.

 

I like it when folks compare using a lever-action rifle to a sword. By the way, if the baddie has a knife, a sword would work fine. A cutlass swings just fine in confined spaces. A spadroon will do superb work if you just want to run a guy through. With a gun? Yeah, you want more than a sword.

But the opinion of late that unless you go Ranger style you can't defend yourself is getting a bit absurd. In home-defense situations, where are you going to keep the extra magazines? Are they on the AR when you need it? Are you going to have time to fetch them? How quickly can you remove them from the mag pouch under said stress of unloading an entire magazine on the 48 zombies crashing through your door? This ain't Call of Duty. This isn't even Bagdad. We are talking about home defense.

My family has been involved in three cases of home defense. In all cases, the weapon used was a 5 or 6 shot revolver. In none of the cases were shots even fired. Two of them involved my grandfather (okay, one was car defense). The first one involved a true attempted home invasion in the 1950's in rural Florida. Granddad used a Hopkins and Allen Safety Police to subdue two baddies who tried to force their way into the house. He held them back to back on the lawn until the sheriff showed up. The second one he was involved with was in the 1980's during the spate of rest area shootings in Florida and a thug showed up to the car. My grandmother who was wheel-chair bound and my sister were in the car. By that time he kept a Smith and Wesson Model 10 under a cloth on the front seat. He drew the revolver and the baddie ran. My grand dad had great courage and discipline - during WWII he worked as a ship-builder. One time on a ship that caught fire while being fitted out he became trapped below deck. Trapped, he drug an oxygen acetylene tank and, lacking eye protection, covered one eye and cut a hole through the unarmored hull. He lost the eye but survived - and because he was a civilian got no medal.

The last case was my mother after Hurricane Camille. Dad was a broadcast engineer working for NBC and mom was at home with the kids. Dad HAD to be at work. In our neighborhood looters showed up. Mom went Scarlet O'Hara and got dad's Colt New Service when they showed up at our house. She sat at the kitchen table with the hand cannon pointed to the door. They saw her through the windows and beat feet.

In those three cases a revolver was sufficient and in none of those cases were shots fired much less consideration of reloading. Yeah, when you draw a gun, you must be prepared to fire. And folks here will probably arm chair pick apart mistakes made (though in none of those cases were mistakes made).

A lever-action rifle or pump-action shotgun would do just fine in home-defense scenarios. Unless you travel the house with a magazine belt already on your waist and rifle slung, the time it takes to suit up would be too much. Just how many protracted fire fights has anyone ever read of in homes anywhere in the world? What of the Koreans in the photos shown? Their shops MUST have burned down because none of them have so much as a red dot mounted. They could not have possibly have protected their businesses during the riots.

What exactly are we worried about with home invasion that will require multiple reloads? If that is your neighborhood....move.

 

I'm not necessarily saying MULTIPLE reloads are necessary, I just like the ability to reload.
Not every situation resolves itself with no shots fired, not every situation resolves itself merely by showing a gun, not every situation resolves itself in 8 rounds fired.

If this has no importance to you, fine.
To others, it does.
Denis

 

It's all a matter of personal comfort. Would my little Winnie be proper for home defense? My first choice would be the Enfield but if the Winnie was the choice I had it would be better than my Commander. I would prefer the Winnie to Gramps swing block carbine although with the 45-70 ball the wind is going to knock an aggressor down after the report shatters his eardrum. I have far more experience with the Winnie is the only reason. I would prefer the swing block to Hubby's AR, mainly because I have shot it exactly twice and both times Dave has had to put it in battery for me.

There is no "one size fits all" because we aren't all the same size. My thoughts on the subject are if you would be comfortable with the Henry in the high stress situation of the hunt it would like as not serve you well defense purposes. If you aren't pick another weapon.