The "Powerful" .38 Special (Not A Caliber War)

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HiWayMan

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I don't want to make this a caliber war.

I have been recently re-reading my copy of "Kill or Get Killed" by Applegate. He along with various other authors from around the same generation constantly refer to the "powerful" .38 special cartridge. I find this funny, because now days the .38 is considered pretty weak by just about everyone. Was their perception based upon the fact that during these time periods most concealable pistol loads would have included .32ACP, .380ACP, .32 Long, and .38S&W? I suppose that if these calibers were all you knew, then the .38 Special would be pretty "powerful".

Did I just answer my own Question?
 
Another of my uneducated opinions.

All handguns are inferior to rifles in delivering a sure knock-out blow to the target, but some are better than others. Before the advent of the .357, .44 mag, etc., a lot of folks bought it from a 36. cal blackpowder revolver. So while the "powerful" .38 might be middle of the road by todays standards, it's still very adequate for a handgun and decidedly better than many early twentieth century offerings.
 
Yeah, what else was around back then? The 9mm was unknown to Americans, only in Wathers, Lugers, Radoms and such. European police carried .32s and .380s. The .45, colt and ACP, were king of the power hill. Cops didn't carry autos back then, strictly military. There was the .44 special in N frames, BIG guns and not service size. The .38 was THE issue police round, in round nose, 200 ft lb version. But, it was all they had until 1935 and even then the .357 came out in the N frame and not many LEOs carried it until it got chambered in the K frame, same problem as the .44 special.

And, yeah, you answered your own question.:D
 
When you think about it, a .38 Special with modern loads is pretty potent. According to Marshall and Sanow, a 158 grain round nose lead standard pressure load (755 fps) has a street effectiveness of around 52%, and the 38 Special +P 158 grain lead hollow point load (890 fps) has a street effectiveness of around 72%. In other words, you can dramatically increase the effectiveness of a .38 Special handgun just by changing ammunition, and it also shows how far the performance has been increased with increased velocity and bullet design. I take most Marshall and Sanow data with a grain of salt, but the .38 Special is just flat out more effective with +P velocities and modern hollow points.

Just my .02,
LeonCarr
 
Back when the .38 special casing was lengthened, and the first "magnum" revolver round was made, the handgun experts and "guru's" all said that the .357 magnum was "too powerful" to control, and that it was a "hand cannon".

There is nothing wrong with the .38 special round, even though it has been "dwarfed" by larger diameter bullets and more powerful charges.

Bullet PLACEMENT generally relates to "stopping power".
 
Oldtimer said:
Back when the .38 special casing was lengthened, and the first "magnum" revolver round was made, the handgun experts and "guru's" all said that the .357 magnum was "too powerful" to control, and that it was a "hand cannon".

There is nothing wrong with the .38 special round, even though it has been "dwarfed" by larger diameter bullets and more powerful charges.

Bullet PLACEMENT generally relates to "stopping power".
Click to expand...

They took that "cannon" and went all over north America shooting moose, brown bear, you name it. Wow, glad it wasn't ME hunting brownies with a 700 ft lbs "cannon". ROFL!!!! I'm sure there was someone over his shoulder, though, with a .416 Rigby or something. I can see it now, BANG....ROAR....:eek: ...."You're up!" ....KABOOOOOOM!:D

<thread jack>

BTW, the accuracy of statistics relys on a large data base, thus increasing "degrees of freedom". Properly sampled and recorded, statistics are quite accurate with enough data present. Analysis of variance is part of proving the stats. With enough shootings, a bell curve will form and a confidence interval can be calculated. You can't read M/S statistics directly as if saying, 71% of the time you shoot a BG in the chest he stops. However, you can compare a 50% "stopping power" (whatever that is) with 71% for the hollow point and determine which load is more effective IF there's enough data base with the proper "goodness of fit" testing to eliminate possible errors and bias and a confidence interval of 90%, say, is calculated. The key is in the NUMBER of shootings calculated. The higher the number, the more accurate the data.

M/S statistics are the ONLY means to judging a load's performance in shootings that I'll reference for comparative purposes. You can calculate your "power factors", shoot all the jello you want, means diddly squat to me.

</thread jack>
 
john lennon too sadly :(. The .38 special is nothing to sneeze at back in those days there where no kahr's,mini glocks or anything remotely like them. I still say I'd rather have my colt cobra with 6 rounds or 158gr. +p lead hp's when clothing dosen't allow me to conceal mt 1911's. then any of these small autos like the kahr's and mini glocks. I used to own a mini glock and it almost always took a backseat to my cobra for deep concealment carry needs but thats just me,hmm .38's and 1911's maybe I'am oldschool.
 
Rex Applegate had a long interesting life. The reason he would refer to the .38 S&W Special as powerful was because at the time he wrote that book his favorite ccw gun was a little Smith and Wesson "New Departure" later it would be called the "Safety Hammerless" and with less grace by collectors it was known as the "Lemon Squeezer". Applegate's gun was chambered in .38 S&W but they were also available in a smaller version in .32 S&W. Rex lobbied Smith and Wesson to bring that model revolver back after the Second World War,what he got was the superior Centenial model in .38 Special. My recollection is that he was given the first one..... So that is the story on that.


Not too much on these guns on the net, but for the novice who has never seen one of these hinge frame concealed hammer revolvers here are several on GunsAmerica.

http://www.gunsamerica.com/fast.cgi?guncat=2420
 
Don't forget Oswald also kiled a police officer with a 38spl revolver in the movie theater before he was captured. And the Miami FBI shooout was ended with a FBI man armed with a 357mag shooting 38spl loads.
 
IMO, one reason many folks thought of the .38 Special as a very powerful round is due to the crummy grips put on wheelguns back then. The old Colt and Smith & Wesson grips were terrible for absorbing recoil. People shot the guns, got their hands whacked, and thought, "Wow, this thing's a killer!"
 
and all this time i thought it was one of those 9 shot hi-standard sentinals.....or H&R's..........
 
You probably just got confused with the Reagan assasination attempt around that time frame. That was with a 22 revolver but I'm not sure the exact make. I think possibly a RG and loaded with some sort of ammo the media I think called "devastators", probably was CCI stingers or such.
 
I've wondered before if the idea of what constitutes "powerful" is different in modern times because the average person is bigger today than they were 60 years ago.
 
Moonclip said:
Yo I think possibly a RG and loaded with some sort of ammo the media I think called "devastators", probably was CCI stingers or such.
Click to expand...

Nope, wasn't Stingers or such. It was loaded with .22 ammo called Devastator which was available back then. The Devastator was a rd loaded with a small charge in a HP cavity that was suppose to explode upon impact. None of the rds worked as advertised in the Reagan shooting.


Moonclip said:
Don't forget Oswald also kiled a police officer with a 38spl revolver in the movie theater before he was captured.
Click to expand...

He attempted to shoot an officer in the movie theater but the officer grabbed Oswald's weapon and during the grab the web of the officer's hand between his thumb and forefinger got caught between the hammer and the frame which prevented the hammer from dropping.
Oswald shot and killed Officer JD Tippet several blocks from the movie theater when Tippet approached Oswald to question him.
 
Last edited:
Harry Stone said:
I've wondered before if the idea of what constitutes "powerful" is different in modern times because the average person is bigger today than they were 60 years ago.
Click to expand...

I agree. This, plus the fact that "recreational drugs" weren't as widespread and mind-alteringly powerful as they are today.
 
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