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The proper weapon for Appleseed courses

Discussion in 'Rifle Country' started by The Grand Baboon, Mar 2, 2012.

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  1. The Grand Baboon

    The Grand Baboon Member

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    I'm signing up for an Appleseed course this coming April in my home state of Utah. I regularly use a well broken in, bolt-action CZ-452 chambered in 22. LR. With open sights this rifle is more than capable of quarter sized groups at fifty yards and less than a dime if I have a decent scope mounted. Unfortunately, I'm under the impression that this weapon will be somewhat of a burden during the course of the Appleseed class due to its low magazine capacity and the fact that it's bolt-action. I have another 22. LR which is semi-automatic and has a removable magazine (a S&W 15-22 to be specific), but is no where near the CZ-452 in terms of accuracy. What rifle would should I take to the course?
     
  2. sixgunner455

    sixgunner455 Member

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    Both.

    Pick one to be your primary, and the other is your backup. The standard "LTR" is semiauto, but people take whatever they have, and whatever they like of what they have.

    The CZ has ten-round magazines available for it, but they are expensive. My buddy bought several of them when he got his 452.

    I am going to an Appleseed for the first time this weekend. I am taking both of my kids, so I am going to use my Savage .22lr bolt while my daughter uses my 10/22 - I think it'll be easier to use the 10/22, and I know she'll have an easier time running it, so that's what the plan is. I have a couple of ten-round magazines for the Savage, and a handful of them for the 10/22.

    I figure, I hunt with a bolt rifle, so I ought to get more familiar with running one under pressure, like I did with the semiauto when I was in the Army. If there is a disadvantage at the course to running a bolt, I'm just accepting whatever it is for that reason.
     
  3. henschman

    henschman Member

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    I am an Appleseed Shoot Boss, and also own a CZ-452. I have shot multiple Expert scores on the 25m AQT with it... in fact, I have never shot anything but an Expert score with it. That rifle makes me look good!

    As long as you have at least 2 mags for it, you should be fine, even if they are both 5 round mags. The usual rules for the AQT require mags of 2 and 8 for the mag change stages; but in the old days, the military used to let the guys with 1903s use clips of 5 and 5 when shooting this course of fire. So at Appleseeds, I have never had a problem with bolt guns using clips/mags of 5 and 5. That was how I was taught to do it by my mentor Shoot Boss, and I assume other Shoot Bosses across the country would allow this too; but I don't really know for sure. You might try sending a PM or e-mail to the Idaho State Coordinator, who goes by "Reformed Redneck" on the Appleseed forum; or e-mail him at ID@appleseedinfo.org, to make sure they do it that way up there too.

    You will want a good shooting sling on that CZ if you're going to use it at an Appleseed... either a GI web sling or a 1907 leather sling. For either one of those, you will need to replace the factory 1" swivels with 1.25" swivels. I swapped mine out for Uncle Mike's swivels. The new swivels fit a little tight in the factory sling studs, but I was able to work them in.

    The stages with significant time pressure are a little more of a challenge with a bolt gun, but you will do fine as long as you learn to get your NPOA quickly and get a good cadence going... it is also important to keep your support elbow planted and keep the stock in your shoulder pocket while working the bolt, and to keep your cheek weld, if you can.

    You might as well bring your M&P-22 as well. Hell, if you qualify on one, you can switch to the other and do it with it too! IIRC the M&P's don't come from the factory with a front sling stud or swivel, so if you want to use it, you'll need to get some sort of picatinny attachment that will let you mount a sling to the railed handguard... either a sling stud or a QD socket, and a swivel to go with it. For the rear swivel, I think they have a standard sling stud on the stock that you can put an Uncle Mike's swivel in. Also you will want an extra mag for that rifle, too.

    Have fun, and good luck getting that Rifleman's patch!
     
  4. GCBurner

    GCBurner Member

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    I used a bolt action Mossberg in my first Appleseed last month. It was a little slower on the timed stages, but I've been practicing some, and I'll be taking it back to the next one this month. I got some 10-round magazines for it, and replaced the factory 1" sling swivels with 1 1/4" QD swivels, so I could add a USGI web sling. The sling, swivels, and mags are the only upgrades I've done, as I've had this rifle a long time, and I know it will shoot straight, if I do my part. I didn't feel the need to spend big bucks on a new rifle with LTR upgrades just for the Appleseed shoot. The best thing you can do is get in a lot of dry-fire practice working the bolt.
     
  5. MythBuster

    MythBuster member

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    I see Appleseed has turned into a rimfire sporter match. That is sort of sad but then again if it is getting people off the bench it is still a good thing.
     
  6. The Grand Baboon

    The Grand Baboon Member

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    Awesome, I'll just bring both rifles then.

    I have a "leather" military strap that I picked up at Sportsman's after I bought the CZ. Should I look into getting a better one, or is this close to the 1907 sling you mentioned?
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
  7. henschman

    henschman Member

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    Yeah, that is a 1907 sling. It is cool that you found one that would fit through the factory swivels. Just make sure you know how to run it as a loop sling. There are some guides and videos online.

    What makes you say that -- the fact that a couple guys were on here talking about .22s to use at an Appleseed?

    Come to Grandfield, OK this Patriot's Day weekend and you'll see what a "rimfire match" we're running. We usually get a crowd of 50 or more, and we shoot out to 1,000 yards on Sunday.

    Not to disparage rimfires... if you can't shoot Expert at 25m with a .22, then you sure as hell won't be able to do it at full distance with a .30 cal battle rifle. It makes sense to qualify on a .22 first, to learn the fundamentals while ammo is cheap, and then once you have that Rifleman's patch, step it up to a battle rifle and qualify with it too.
     
  8. The Grand Baboon

    The Grand Baboon Member

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    Indeed! The way it came from the factory is as shown in the picture. I've been playing around with the proper loop configuration for the past hour or so and I'm blown away by how much it helps in all positions.
     
  9. mac66

    mac66 Member

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    Two things. Bolt actions can be used for Appleseed. We had a 16 year old last weekend at our shoot score a patch with a bolt action mossberg w/scope. That kid could work that bolt like nobody I ever saw. He said he had been practicing for hours working the bolt. I could tell. He never ran out of time or missed a stage.

    Second...the reason Appleseed has so many rimfires in it now is because of the cost of centerfire ammo and the fact they were are getting many more new shooters than before. We used to get mostly gun guys, now we get lots of newbies. It is just easier to learn on rimfires than on big boy guns.
     
  10. armoredman

    armoredman Member

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    I never have the time or money to get to an Appleseed, dagnabbit. I'd love to shoot one with my vz-58, just for grins and giggles.
     
  11. henschman

    henschman Member

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    Heck, the ammo you'd use in your VZ for the weekend would cost more than the Appleseed admission fee! Just sign up for one already! ;)

    We always do some extra special stuff for the April 19th weekend, so that would be a great time to go to one.

    Yeah zreed, it's a trip the first time you sling up right and see how stable you can be from an unsupported prone position, huh?
     
  12. ScrapMetalSlug

    ScrapMetalSlug Member

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    You can run any rifle through an appleseed shoot. Preferable, are rifles that are easy to load fast (detachable mags), but a sling is a necessity. A good USGI web sling is preferred but any sling will work. Most of the technique taught is shooting with a sling, so you need one.

    A bolt gun will be fine if you are comfortable with it. I went to an Appleseed shoot a couple years ago with a Mosin Nagant 91/30 using 5 round stripper clips and the dog collar sling. The barrel got so hot I could have cooked bacon off of it.:D

    IMHO the most ideal and easiest to use rifles in the course would be a semi auto 22 or an AR type rifle.
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2012
  13. MythBuster

    MythBuster member

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    "What makes you say that -- the fact that a couple guys were on here talking about .22s to use at an Appleseed?'

    Not exactly. Every thread I have seen in the last year or so about Appleseed has been about .22 rifles.

    Mostly the Ruger 10-22 and the Marlin that takes detachable mags.
     
  14. BDrinkard

    BDrinkard Member

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    I'm also an Appleseed Shoot Boss. There are a lot of good points here. The .22's are getting to be the norm due to cost of ammo and all the new shooters we have. I have literally have had people buy their first rifle friday night and show up on saturday. Most of those people have done great. We always have about 20% centerfire rifles on the line.

    I always highly recommend that if you can afford the ammo, bring your AR, AK, M1A HK91 or whatever. You'll roll thru 400-500 rounds in the weekend,but by the end you'll be able to run your "real" rifle hard and reload it in your sleep. It's a great way to get to know our rifle.

    I have shot a few Appleseeds with my Garand and a few with a bolt action 8mm Mauser. The bolt gun won't slow you down as much as you think. As long as you can reload it quickly with a box magazine or with stripper clips, you'll be fine.

    Have a great time - both the guy who started the thread and the guy bringing his family. It's a great way to spend a weekend. Anybody else reading this thread - sign up for one! You won't regret it.
     
  15. armoredman

    armoredman Member

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    henschman, I reload 7.62x39mm, so while it would be expensive, not as much as buying a case of Wolf. If I used my CZ527M with it's detachable 5 round mags it would be even cheaper, as I also cast my own bullets that caliber. ;) Cast just doesn't work perfectly in the vz-58 yet.
    But enough about that, no Appleseeds around here, was going to try to organize one at the local range, idea fell apart. Oh well.
     
  16. GCBurner

    GCBurner Member

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    Recommended ammo supply for the weekend is 400-500 rounds. compare the price of 500 rounds of .22LR to 500 rounds of commercial .308 or .30-06, and you'll see why the small bores are more popular.
     
  17. Sniderman

    Sniderman Member

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    I went to an Appleseed last spring, took my 10-22 with 4 magazines. Our shot count for the weekend was 768 rounds. :what:
    ( Yeah, one of the insructors kept a tally)
    The 4 mags came in very handy when we shot 40 rounds in 4 minutes.
    I'm planning another Appleseed this summer & taking the Ruger again...:D
     
  18. cheesebigot

    cheesebigot Member

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    Good luck with the Appleseed, hope you get your patch!

    Since 7.62x39 is fairly cheap, I considered attending an Appleseed with an SKS. Semi-auto, swivels already installed, "detachable" box magazine, a pile of stripper clips, and a sight adjustment tool might make my Yugo warhorse a nice candidate.
     
  19. sixgunner455

    sixgunner455 Member

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    We did go yesterday - could only do the one day. My kids had a good time and both learned a lot. My smaller one shot mostly from prone, but did try the transitions and did pretty well. My older one did better on her groups than she's done before when not shooting from a bench.

    I ran my Savage MKII bolt action, and it was really interesting. I'd never run a bolt action against the clock before, and so I took too much time on the first stage and didn't get 3 shots off. Running through the second stage as fast as I could run the bolt, I pulled one shot out of the scoring rings. All the rest were solid, and I scored a 208, so ... if I'd gotten off one more shot on stage one and made a 3, I'd have gotten the patch.

    I was a bit disappointed that they only had us do one AQT yesterday. They said that they would be spending most of today doing them over and over, and invited me to show up this morning to try again, but I can't go. The shoot boss gave me a card for free entry into any Appleseed until I get the patch, so that was pretty cool of him.

    Nice people, very helpful, kids learned a lot about history and shooting. I learned stuff about how better to use a sling, and running my rifle against the clock.
     
  20. Pat4x4

    Pat4x4 Member

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    Apple-seeds are freaking awesome.. Was not sure what to expect the first time I went but what a good time.. My kids had a good time and it was a such a learning experience other than the marksmanship
     
  21. CHALK22

    CHALK22 Member

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    I did my first (and so far only) Appleseed about 2 years ago. I shot a 16" AR-15 with a Dreadnaught muzzle break on it. Yeah, the shooters to the sides ended up farther away from me than when they started....... I am glad I used it. I learned a ton about the gun, and earned my patch, and an orange hat. Funny thing was that NONE of the 10/22s ran reliably all weekend long. Stoppages, misfeeds, jammed mags, you name it. People started swapping ammo all over the place, nobody knew which ammo they brought at the end of the weekend. It was pretty funny. Amazingly enough my AR that everybody scoffed at at the beginning ran over 450 rounds of handloads with nary a problem. She was dirty, but she was happy! two guys had brought M1 Garands! And one lady shot the second day with a Mini-14, and lucky me, she did not want her brass!! At the end of the weekend, an instructor brought out his suppressed .308 bolt gun and shot full size targets @ 300 yds. Headshots.....that guy could shoot.
     
  22. MythBuster

    MythBuster member

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    "At the end of the weekend, an instructor brought out his suppressed .308 bolt gun and shot full size targets @ 300 yds. Headshots.....that guy could shoot."

    Compared to the bench only shooters trying to shoot appleseed he was good but what he did would be something entirely normal and unnoticed in a group of shooters that have long ago given up bench shooting.

    Once you decide to stay off the bench and you spend a lot of time learning real world shooting you will progress to the point to where the things he did would not impress you.

    The point I am trying to make is YOU can do the same thing. It is not that hard to do.
     
  23. henschman

    henschman Member

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    Sixgunner, sounds like it was a good time had by all. Stick with it... if you shot a 208 on your very first AQT ever, you should be able to get that Rifleman's score without too much trouble at all. Keep doing some dry fire practice at home, and hit the range a little, and I bet the next Appleseed you go to you patch out on your first AQT of the weekend.

    You ought to bring a center fire to qualify with for after you do it with your .22. Then you too can be ringing the head-size plate at 300 with ease!
     
  24. MythBuster

    MythBuster member

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    Sometimes the bench only shooters show up to watch one of our smallbore matches or one of our service rifle matches.

    They see the tiny prone 100 yard groups we shoot in smallbore with iron sights and the results of our service rifle matches and they think we are some sort of really amazingly gifted shooters.

    What they fail to understand is if they got off their bench and sandbags and got used to iron sights and tried to learn real shooting skills they could do it also.

    As long as one is addicted to the bench you will never learn real shooting skills.
     
  25. CraigC
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    CraigC Member

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    It's not ideal, as the course was setup around autoloaders but you can certainly take a boltgun and shoot Rifleman with it. You will have certainly earned it, having brought your proficiency at manipulating the rifle quickly up to match your accuracy. I would strongly suggest a good peep sight like the Tech Sights and a good sling. If you use a 1907, which is what I prefer, I would also suggest being accustomed to getting looped up in before your event. I've been to two and have yet to see an instructor teach a student how to use one.


    Not really, you're only competing with yourself.

    IMHO, all the constant harping about bench shooters is probably not very productive.
     
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