The Remington R51, Explained

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Remington Model 700 Rifle And The R51

After the R51 difficulties, along comes Model 700 Rifle trigger recall of 7.85 million rifles and possible litigation.
Better get your R1 ASAP !
 
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After the R51 difficulties, along comes Model 700 Rifle trigger recall of 7.85 million rifles and possible litigation.
Better get your R1 ASAP !

Maybe they will sell off Remington to someone who cares about making a quality product.
 
Badger, did you actually get pierced primers? I remember someone around here saying they got one blown primer (and I think a pin-hole case failure; I forget if that was you), but that was it.

I fired 14 cases, all of which had bulged primers except one. That one was the out-of-battery discharge with the bulge on the side of the case. No pierced primers.
 
I have yet to see any reports of an unsafe out of battery discharge in any review of the R51 (admittedly, I have probably not seen all available reviews). Keep in mind that with the Pedersen action, the breech locks before the round is fully chambered, and once the breech is locked, the pistol may be fired safely, even though one might not consider it to be fully in battery.
WHAT? Okay, these pictures will be hard to miss, then. Are these pictures of a safe condition? The Pedersen block was NOT in the fully forward position when the gun discharged. As you can see if you watch my video, the Remington 51 (the original) CANNOT discharge unless the slide is fully forward. This is not true of the R51. Therefore, unsafe. You are counting on the strength of the case wall to fully support all of the pressure. These are standard-pressure factory cases, not +P.
 

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"Are these pictures of a safe condition?"
Possibly, trending towards probably (more on that later)

"The Pedersen block was NOT in the fully forward position when the gun discharged."
Absotively

"the Remington 51 (the original) CANNOT discharge unless the slide is fully forward. This is not true of the R51."
Indubitable

The R51's out of battery safety is the trigger disconnector (a kind of odd way to achieve this, compared to a firing pin safety, but it's cheaper and theoretically works), which I've detailed at length as being possibly the weakest of weak links in the R51 (chamber cut is the other). The way it works makes it very susceptible to poor manufacturing; the enlarged pin slots and poorly-stamped cam lobes mean its engagement position will vary quite a bit, gun to gun. On my gun, at least, the hammer can drop for nearly the whole portion of slide travel before the block is raised. That means my gun can fire with the block pushed all the way back against its stop.

This is not necessarily an unsafe condition. What it is, is a condition of weaker case head support, which as we've seen with Glocks, is not necessarily a deal-breaker. As you saw, ROH, the gun was not damaged nor did it fail to fire in an unsafe way --the case did not rupture. While it is certainly unacceptable that the chambers were so poorly miscut that some rounds will fail to fully chamber and fire in such a state of poor case support it has not at this point seemed to have resulted in a catastrophic or truly dangerous failure for anyone. Given the Internet's appetite for beating on the R51 since its flop, I find it hard to believe that such incidents would go unreported, more so if they occur with any frequency. "R51 Kaboom" still just chases up MAC's "Is the R51 Safe?" article, which suggests to me the question is still a question.

It is inexcusable the guns were so poorly made that they can function in so compromised a state that the brass bulges worrisomely (and that the firing pin is so large in diameter,pointed in shape, and light in weight, that every. single. last. round. in my R51 shows the same unruptured "pimple with a dimple" that you show, there, regardless of ammo used). But that is not the same as the guns being unsafe to fire (to defend your life with, maybe), until we have some cases of actual unsafe failures. I think we had one person mention a low-pressure primer pierce and pin-hole case failure (both of which are worrisome and indicate a close margin, but were not dangerous failures), but that's it. The old Rain Man Quantas axiom, "never crashed" applies here; there's nothing special about the airline that made it safer, but the fact was they had never had a crash (still haven't, I think :p)

I'm jealous of how smooth your chamber appears to be. Mine was so rough that the cases looked like they'd been pulled through 60grit sandpaper when extracted; striped and frosted texture. FWIW, MAC had a very similar OOBD (with +P ammo, no less) and his case looked identical. IIRC, he remarked that the recoil was harsher (makes sense for a block fully back, with no take-up to smooth the impulse), and the gun was locked up by the bulged case. Does this differ much from your experience? It may be your brass was further from the knife edge than you might think (still not acceptable performance, though).

TCB
 
Are these pictures of a safe condition?

These are pictures of cases, not pictures of a condition of the gun when they were fired. Are they the result of a discharge out of battery? Or are they the result of a different unsafe condition? There is no way to know from just these pictures.
 
I must be Nostra-Freaking-Damus, or something

Went back and re-read some of the early posts to see how my/our perceptions have changed over the last six months; check this gem at #13 (April 22):

"I wanna like this gun. It does fit my hand well. I guess we'll all be waiting and seeing what Remington does with this."
Well, it did take them 8 years to enact the latest recall...so I'm not very hopeful on a rapid response that isn't just to shred the first batch of guns (and I refuse to shred a gun that can be redeemed). Any near-term action will surely be direction from corporate offices to cut all losses; kill the program, recall the guns, and pretend the whole affair never happened. Nothing likely to follow, I wouldn't think.

:evil: Why can't I predict anything I can actually profit from? :D :D :D

TCB
 
"Are they the result of a discharge out of battery?"
Well, the breech block was in a retracted position while the chamber had enough pressure to bulge the cases --whether the hammer dropped in that condition vs. the bolt moving back too fast is kind of six to one, half a dozen the other, as far as safety/function is concerned. As crappy as that disconnector is, I'd hate for it to be the only thing between me and oblivion, that's for sure :p

TCB
 
As crappy as that disconnector is, I'd hate for it to be the only thing between me and oblivion, that's for sure :p

I think it is probably safe to say that the design requires closer tolerances in a lot of areas than we see in the final product.
 
One LGS had/has one for sale.
I think the price was pretty good.

I'm tempted to buy it, send it back, and tell them I want an R1.

Or, keep it. Those things are going to be rarer than the Vektor CP1.
 
CP1: case in point for thkse who claim terrible guns can't gain value :neener:. As bad as the Colt 2000 was, they never recalled it, so plenty of examples keep the price down ;)

TCB
 
I would sure like a reputable company to "infringe" on the Rem copy rights and make one to good tolerances using good components.

I still think this is a great design for the intended purpose.
 
I would sure like a reputable company to "infringe" on the Rem copy rights and make one to good tolerances using good components.

I still think this is a great design for the intended purpose.
:scrutiny: I agree that it's a good design ... but I really think Remington ought to step up to the plate and do it right, which would avoid an infringement on patent/trademark/copyright (?) *legal* :D issues.
 
barnbwt said:
"Are they the result of a discharge out of battery?"
Well, the breech block was in a retracted position while the chamber had enough pressure to bulge the cases --whether the hammer dropped in that condition vs. the bolt moving back too fast is kind of six to one, half a dozen the other, as far as safety/function is concerned. As crappy as that disconnector is, I'd hate for it to be the only thing between me and oblivion, that's for sure :p
The hammer did drop when the bolt was all the way back. I sent my gun back so quickly, I could not demonstrate this but it has been verified that it CAN do this. I also verified that it CANNOT do that on the original Model 51. It must be fully closed (actually, within about .005" IIRC). I am not 100% sure how the mechanism works. I have reviewed your previous posts, but the mechanics are still foggy in my head. I need to detail strip a gun in person to wrap my mind around it.
 
Two silver "ears" stick up against the bolt (not the slide, which is why the racking is so rough and you can drop the hammer at three points during slide travel :rolleyes:), which are driven down and knock the trigger stirrup out of engagement of the sear(s). The slots the disco rides on are oversized, and the part itself is made very poorly on the R51 --hence the varying issues.

If the 51 really disengages in five thou of slide travel, that's borderline magic. I'd love to get a run down on how Pedersen pulled that off.

TCB
 
I haven't read all the posts here so this announcement may have been covered. I really like the look and feel of the R51, but didn't buy one for obvious reasons, but am still interested. I contacted Remington recently and they said the "redesigned" R51 is scheduled for release the second quarter of 2015.
 
I haven't read all the posts here so this announcement may have been covered. I really like the look and feel of the R51, but didn't buy one for obvious reasons, but am still interested. I contacted Remington recently and they said the "redesigned" R51 is scheduled for release the second quarter of 2015.

*Sigh!* That's what? ... four months. Well, atleast it's something.

I guess that means I will be without mine for about one year.
 
Sheesh, get a refund and buy the new one when it comes out :rolleyes:. It's not like they'll pay you back interest for your trouble...

TCB
 
Sheesh, get a refund and buy the new one when it comes out :rolleyes:. It's not like they'll pay you back interest for your trouble...

TCB

WHAT!?!?!!???!!!!?!?! And miss out on that nifty Pelican case they promised? :neener:

Seriously I might as well wait. Buy new one....wait -- What's the difference, really?
It isn't really hurting me to wait.
 
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