The Rock Island incident (KaBoom)

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OK --- not trying to be a Smartasse --- is a squib a primer only load{no powder} or a case where the bullet doesn't leave the barrel.

It's either a primer-only or a super light charge. The bullet does not exit the barrel due to the light charge. Those 2 things combined = squib.

That RIA barrel definitely looks to me like it was caused by a squib or some other obstruction. That bulge definitely tells a tale.

I have never personally seen a squib that will fully cycle the slide of an auto. That doesn't mean that it can't happen though. I've seen squibs (I've had one myself) but never seen one cycle. Sounds like RIA has some excellent customer service to me!
 
I watched it happen once, and was standing beside another shooter when it happened, but wasn't looking straight at the gun.

For the second time in this thread...the more detailed version.

I was talking to a guy who was warming up for a plate match one Sunday afternoon. His wife was shooting while he gabbed with me. She had just run a plate machine in rapid-fire, and...hearing the dingdingding...started watching her more closely. Good shootin', said I.

On the next rack, she dinged two plates. On the next shot, I watched the gun cycle..watched the empty case fly...but no plate fell, and there was no strike in the dirt. I yelled for her to stop...but she couldn't hear me, and pulled the trigger. The gun locked up, and she thought it had misfired because there was no report and no recoil.


I was able to wedge screwdriver tip between the slide and hood and get the slide open enough to see that there was a case in the chamber...but not far enough to remove it.

At first, everybody thought it was a live or misfired round...but the screwdriver would only go about an inch deep in the muzzle...so I knew that it had fired at least one of the rounds. I offered to get the gun apart back at the shop, but the guy said he'd take it to Tommy Abernathy the next week, since Tom had wrenched the guns for'em.

I called Tommy mid-week to see what he had found. There were two bullets in the barrel...which was split from the third lug to the muzzle at 9 and 3, with a bulge where they met.

One more time...I was looking straight at the gun when it cycled, observing her technique...so there was no mistake, and there was no chance that the lady could have hand-cycled the gun.

35 years of owning, 25 years of wrenching,
and I've never seen this occur.

I only saw it for the first time..actually saw it...about 3 years ago. Heard of it. Had people swear to it, but doubted it, saying that they'd likely done an automatic malfunction drill, but never actually watched it...until that day.

The other time that I was on hand, the guy said that he didn't hand cycle it...but because I didn't actually see it...I had to be skeptical, but now I don't doubt it any more. I know that it can happen. Not a common occurrence...but it can happen.
 
Not to doubt anyone's observations, but how can a recoil operated pistol cycle with a squib? Can anyone explain the mechanism involved here?

Couple of strange things. If it was a squib, hand cycled or not, why did the huge pressure spike of a supposed obstructed barrel leave the case looking normal? How could that be?
I have to come down on the bad barrel/defective steel given the available evidence. Overcharge or squib followed by discharge of normal round would have caused severe deformation of the case under all conditions due to very high pressure, that is not the case according to the owner. No mention of mag blown out, split grips, heavy recoil or any of the other symptoms of an overpressure event.
 
but how can a recoil operated pistol cycle with a squib?

I pondered on it a lot myself, and the only theory that I can come up with is that the bullet moves far enough with enough force to get the slide moving past the linkdown point. Once the slide is moving, momentum carries it through. Not as forcefully as it would under normal pressures...but enough to get te breechface past the magazine.
It has to be one of those things that requires just the right set of circumstances in order to happen...but it can...and has.

If it was a squib, hand cycled or not, why did the huge pressure spike of a supposed obstructed barrel leave the case looking normal? How could that be?

Good head support and minimum headspace would help.

Several years ago, Jim Keenan purposely obstructed a 1911 barrel with a steel rod and a set screw threaded into the muzzle, that wouldn't allow any bullet movement at all. He fired the pistol repeatedly like that. At the end of the demo...the gun was undamaged, and only needed a barrel.
 
anything is possible, i have had 2 squibs in a Para commander size and it didnt cycle the slide preventing disaster.
 
You'd be surprised at how little recoil force is needed to move the slide with a 16-pound recoil spring.

You can prove it to yourself in about 5 minutes.

Prime a case and drop 7 or 8 grains of Bullseye in it. Place a tuft of cotton over the charge, and work it into the chamber. Fire the gun. My bet is that the slide will move far enough to get the hammer to half-cock. Bump it up to 10 grains, and it'll probably make it to full cock. I've never used more than 7 grains for this one, so I can't guarantee it...but I'd about bet that it will.

Why, then, do slides short cycle with light charges and/or light bullets? (Anicipating jungle's next question.) :)

Simple. Because in those instances, there's a bullet present. That bullet offers the largest resistive force to the slide. More than all other forces present in the gun combined. No bullet means that there's nothing resisting the slide except for the recoil spring and mainspring...and the slide's mass...and it just doesn't take a lot of force to move the slide. The barrel's mass is also part of it, but that only has an effect for a short time. Roughly 1/10th inch of slide movement in the Colt-Browning short recoil design.

When the bullet is moving through the barrel, it exerts a forward drag ON the barrel while the slide is pulling the barrel backward AGAINST that resistance. Remove the bullet, and that resistance is gone. Stop the bullet in the barrel...and that resistance is gone. If the recoil forces generated while the bullet was moving were sufficient to get the slide moving...the slide will continue moving after the bullet stops due to Newton's law of conservation of momentum. "An object in motion tends to remain in motion unless and until an outside force compels it to stop." In this case, the force from the springs alone isn't of sufficient magnitude to bring the slide to an immediate halt.
 
I had a rash of squibs in a batch of 100 reloads when I accidentally let powder measure run too low.

Its hard to explain how it happens but it has happened to me with a 1911 so I know it is possible for sure.

All but one was either clear (bullet exited) or not far enough in for the next round to chamber when I checked the 10-15 low recoil rounds in that batch. It only takes once to ruin your gun! Got pretty good with a squib rod that day :) I top off the powder measure every time I reload the primer tube from then on!

Its a toss up as to which would be a bigger PITA pulling ~100 rounds or being ready at the range with the squib round. I plan to never try and find out!

--wally.
 
Its hard to explain how it happens but it has happened to me with a 1911 so I know it is possible for sure.

Damn glad that somebody besides me has seen it.

I've about come to the conclusion that it offers a very narrow window. If the bullet stops too short, it won't cycle. If it stops too late, it won't cycle. It's got to be just in the right place with just the right amount of powder and at just the right pressure level.

Maybe an experiment would be in order. Start with a half-grain of Bullseye or something similar and come up in half-grain increments until the bullet sticks and the slide cycles.

I'd suggest using lead bullets. Much easier to drive out with a rod, dontcha know...
 
But that relative ease with which it travels down the barrel would itself change the results, no?

Well, of course. The object of the exercise isn't to see how much pressure it takes to drive a bullet to the stickin' place...but rather to see the slide cycle with a squib. It can be done, no matter what type of bullet is used. All it takes is to adjust the powder charge until it does it. Until it does, there's gonna be a lotta time spent knockin' stuck bullets out of the barrel. Might as well make it easier.
 
"Several years ago, Jim Keenan purposely obstructed a 1911 barrel with a steel rod and a set screw threaded into the muzzle, that wouldn't allow any bullet movement at all. He fired the pistol repeatedly like that. At the end of the demo...the gun was undamaged, and only needed a barrel. "
__________________


If I remember correctly the slide did not move in this experiment. Recoil operated.

I seem to remember another very astute observer saying the bullet in the barrel mainly served to keep the barrel and slide locked together as the bullet moved forward, which I agree with.

All of this still doesn't address the undamaged brass in what should have been a very high(double normal?) pressure spike, if things happened as some propose.


A blank or wadded charge of bullseye may move the slide through recoil of the ejecta, what is going to move the slide if nothing exits the barrel?

Hollywood types can make a recoil operated pistol run with blanks with just the gas of a blank, but usually through a much smaller than normal barrel opening.
 
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I had a rash of squibs in a batch of 100 reloads when I accidentally let powder measure run too low.

Its hard to explain how it happens but it has happened to me with a 1911 so I know it is possible for sure.

All but one was either clear (bullet exited) or not far enough in for the next round to chamber when I checked the 10-15 low recoil rounds in that batch. It only takes once to ruin your gun! Got pretty good with a squib rod that day :) I top off the powder measure every time I reload the primer tube from then on!

Its a toss up as to which would be a bigger PITA pulling ~100 rounds or being ready at the range with the squib round. I plan to never try and find out!

--wally.

You are not really clear here, are you saying some of these squibs actually cycled the slide?
 
A blank or wadded charge of bullseye may move the slide through recoil of the ejecta, what is going to move the slide if nothing exits the barrel?

Recoil.

The burned powder and gasses have mass. It requires force to move mass. Force forward equals force backward. It doesn't require much force to move the slide without a bullet pulling forward on the barrel to resist it.

Go try it and see for yourself. It'll move.

All of this still doesn't address the undamaged brass in what should have been a very high(double normal?) pressure spike, if things happened as some propose.

Once the powder ignites, the pressures are headed for peak levels...no matter what. If the bullet doesn't move at all...they'd peak more quickly and violently than if the bullet moved...and they would remain at peak for a longer time because as the bullet moves, the increasing volume of the cylinder behind the bullet causes the pressure to drop more rapidly. So, the pressure on the case and breech would be even more potentially destructive with the bullet blocked.
 
Maybe an experiment would be in order. Start with a half-grain of Bullseye or something similar and come up in half-grain increments until the bullet sticks and the slide cycles.

I recall something about light loads of Bullseye detonating...big debate...can happen, can't happen....Seemed to happen alot with light loads in .38 Special...does that sound familiar?
 
My barrels. Two squibs in the same day. Both cycled the slide, so the second round could chamber and ruin my barrels for me. Made my ass red. Tuner's seen this photo before, he told me they were squibs, 'cause I had no clue what had happened.

Top is a Colt, bottom is an RIA. They look different lengths because of the camera angle.

DSCN1784.gif
 
Hi ndh87,



Had you removed the Slide and inspected the Barrel and other things prior to purchase or prior to firing?



Secondly...years ago, when I was first re-loading, I used to re-load 'light' Cartridges in working up a load, which would print reliably on the Target (if fairly close) but which were too feeble to actuate the Slide (plain, early, 1911 Colt .45 Auto, also, same with a M1902 .38 Autocolt )...plain Lead Semiwad Bullets...


So...I am finding it hard to understand how a 'squib', where the Bullet does not have enough force behind it to even leave the Barrel, would actuate the Slide.

Maybe, very weak Springs, and Jaketed Bullets???


Phil
 
My barrels. Two squibs in the same day. Both cycled the slide, so the second round could chamber and ruin my barrels for me. Made my ass red. Tuner's seen this photo before, he told me they were squibs, 'cause I had no clue what had happened.

Top is a Colt, bottom is an RIA. They look different lengths because of the camera angle.

DSCN1784.gif

Interesting photo, just a slight bulge in both barrels, nothing like the OPs damage.
I guess we can assume a squib may cycle a pistol but usually does not, and firing a bullet behind another lodged obstruction will sometimes split the barrel and sometimes just bulge it.

Still no valid explanation for the normal looking brass in the OPs post. Something that would destroy a normal barrel like that would no doubt leave a damaged case.
Was that your experience?
 
I recall something about light loads of Bullseye detonating...big debate...can happen, can't happen....Seemed to happen alot with light loads in .38 Special...does that sound familiar?

Yep. I'm one of those who understands how detonation happens...from some automotive experience...and believe that the light load kaboom can and has happened.

The problem comes from the powder charge lying below the primer flash hole, and when the spark comes...lights it off along its length instead of burning pregressively from back to front. That's what the cotton tuft is for. To keep the powder against the bottom of the case.

just a slight bulge in both barrels, nothing like the OPs damage

Stainless barrels split. Carbon barrels' bulge and don't split...unless the squib is followed by an overcharged case...like is possible from a progressive loader when a powder bridge drops a light charge...followed by the normal charge plus what was left from the previous one.

Still no valid explanation for the normal looking brass in the OPs post. Something that would destroy a normal barrel like that would no doubt leave a damaged case.

None of the squib events that have come to my attention have resulted in blown cases. Not one. Again...Keenan's demo would have spiked pressures violently...but nothing blew up. Nothing.


If you really want to see a slide move with a powder charge and a tuft of cotton...you can fashion a poor man's blank adaptor by first resizing a .45 case in a proper die...followed by sizing it blit halfway down in a .44 die...followed by sizing it the same distance in a .41 die. Use about 10 grains of Bullseye, and boy howdy will that slide move.

About 25 years ago, a guy who I worked with was into all kinds of wildcat and "improved" rifle cartrtidges that required fireforming brass...or waiting until the commercial brass became available.

He wasn't overly blessed with patience...so he opted to fire form from existing brass to blow the shoulders out to the sharper anges of the improved calibers. He used 10 grains of bullseye...no cotton...and simply loaded the rifle with the blank by keeping it pointed straight up. Pow...and the case came out with a perfectly fire-formed shoulder.

If it'll generate enough force in a large volume rifle case to blow the shoulder out...it'll generate enough to move an 18-ounce slide and barrel assembly.
 
Guillermo...I agree and edited his post.

Sometimes stupid blows up guns and sometimes it's simple equipment malfunction. I know that progressive, hi-volume loading machines are wonderful things...but sometimes they burp, and when they do...things like this and worse can happen. I had a friend who used one of the early ones..and he had a powder bridge with Olin 296 that resulted in 3 rounds out of a hundred with no powder in'em. 296 meters like water. If it can happen with 296 or H110...it can happen with anything.
 
Almost looks to me like the preceding round was light loaded, and the second round got a charge-and-a-half or a double charge.

Was this reloading done on a progressive machine that could have maybe not dropped the powder correctly?

Josh <><
 
Almost looks to me like the preceding round was light loaded, and the second round got a charge-and-a-half or a double charge.
Was this reloading done on a progressive machine that could have maybe not dropped the powder correctly?

I don't remember if the OP mentioned what type of reloading press was used...but it certainly could have been what you suggest. I've seen a few squib induced bulged and split barrels...but never saw one with quite this level of failure. The one thing that I can attest to is that there was an obstruction. The bulge offeres evidence of that. Whether it was a whole bullet or part of one...or even heavy lead fouling is open to theory and debate...but it was there. Given the location of the bulge and the fact that the OP saw one bullet strike per shot...my bet is that it was heavy fouling. That area is where it usually builds up.
 
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