The Second Amendment as a Prophylactic

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For a something to have a deterrent effect on human behavior, it's effectiveness needs to be demonstrated from time to time. It has been a long time since this particular remedy was invoked, and its deterrent effect appears to be waning. I believe several states have called what they thought was a bluff. It is time to show them that it is no bluff, if the 2A is going to continue to have its deterrent effect on would-be tyrants.
 
For a something to have a deterrent effect on human behavior, it's effectiveness needs to be demonstrated from time to time. It has been a long time since this particular remedy was invoked, and its deterrent effect appears to be waning. I believe several states have called what they thought was a bluff. It is time to show them that it is no bluff, if the 2A is going to continue to have its deterrent effect on would-be tyrants.
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Are you saying that a small group of armed individuals should use their guns against duly elected government representatives to violently force political change in the name of stopping tyranny? Uh huh.
 
JustinJ wrote:
Are you saying that a small group of armed individuals should use their guns against duly elected government representatives to violently force political change in the name of stopping tyranny?
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Is that not what the founding fathers had in mind when they wrote the 2nd Amendment into the Bill Of Rights? Or do you think the 2A is only preventative?
 
Are you saying that a small group of armed individuals should use their guns against duly elected government representatives to violently force political change in the name of stopping tyranny? Uh huh.
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Actually, henschman didn't say it, Thomas Jefferson did.
 
Creature said:
JustinJ wrote:

Is that not what the founding fathers had in mind when they wrote the 2nd Amendment into the Bill Of Rights? Or do you think the 2A is only preventative?
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Some constitutional scholars would argue that the second amendment is a clarification of article 1 section 8 that deals with The Militia.

While some say that the Second Amendment is the U S Constitution, with out the original articles of incorporation and the other amendments, there is no United States of America, just a well armed lawless land
 
The preventative (aka deterrent) nature of a prophylactic is moot unless the adversary it is designed to thwart occasionally gets to see it do what it was intended to do.

When I was in Kosovo in 2002, the locals (Orthodox Christians and Muslims) were not killing each other, though they certainly had been before the arrival of armed force. They sometimes expressed their desire to see US and NATO troops depart, saying it would now be ok for them to do so since the fighting had stopped. The trouble is, as we have seen so many times, once the troops leave, the killing resumes. Why? The very presence of troops with guns keeps things in check. Remove that prophylactic, and the trouble that's been held in check is free to flourish again.

In the United States, the citizenry is armed, and that's not by accident. The Founders knew that arms are the ultimate preventative, and they knew that if one removes the lid from a box of cute, cuddly kittens, the cute, cuddly kittens leave the box. OK, so such kittens are a manageable problem. But what if the kittens were not so cute and cuddly? What if they quickly grew into lions and tigers hell-bent on taking over your household?

Armed citizens are only lid on the box of Government kittens. They claim to be cute and cuddly, only trying to help us lead easy and care-free lives. But they're really lions and tigers, determined to stand on our chests with teeth and claws bared.

Do we want them out of the box?
 
Some constitutional scholars would argue that the second amendment is a clarification of article 1 section 8 that deals with The Militia.
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So logically it follows that some scholars would argue that it does not pertain to militias only; that is a individual right. It has been argued in the SCOTUS and found to be an indivdual right.
 
Creature said:
So logically it follows that some scholars would argue that it does not pertain to militias only; that is a individual right. It has been argued in the SCOTUS and found to be an indivdual right.
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If the second amendment as written, was to be the law of the land, why weren't slaves and indians allowed to legally own the very weapons that the second amendment protects?

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the
people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.
 
If the second amendment as written, was to be the law of the land, why weren't slaves and indians allowed to legally own the very weapons that the second amendment protects?
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Albert, that's not a very good argument in that it would apply to the entire Constitution, not just the 2nd Amendment.

It took quite a while for every resident of the country to be recognized as an equal citizen, but that's a separate issue from any question of what the 2nd Amendment does for the citizen so recognized.
 
Is that not what the founding fathers had in mind when they wrote the 2nd Amendment into the Bill Of Rights? Or do you think the 2A is only preventative?
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The founding fathers did not write the second amendment so that a very small minority could use violence to get their way. And have no doubt, it is a very small minority who think violence would today be justified. In fact, those who advocate it do far more to hurt gun rights than preserve them.
 
The founding fathers did not write the second amendment so that a very small minority could use violence to get their way.
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Correct! It was written to ensure that a very small minority (those in Federal office) could NOT use violence to get their way.
 
If the second amendment as written, was to be the law of the land, why weren't slaves and indians allowed to legally own the very weapons that the second amendment protects?
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Because slaves and indians were not viewed as "people" at the time. Slaves were regarded as only 3/5ths of a person for census reasons, not whole "persons" or part of the general "people." One could argue neither were Caucasian women of the era. Or anyone that didn't hold property, etc...
 
JustinJ wrote:
The founding fathers did not write the second amendment so that a very small minority could use violence to get their way.
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Really? Why then did the Founding Fathers write in the Second Amendment? Did they mean a very large majority could use violence to get their way?
 
When speaking to those on the fence about gun control if they ask me why I NEED an "assault rifle" I tell them I don't NEED one and that is what the 2A is for. Then I let the irony sink in.


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Really? Why then did the Founding Fathers write in the Second Amendment? Did they mean a very large majority could use violence to get their way?
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Pretty much, yeah, in addition to a right of self defense. The whole point of democracy, however, is so that the large majority can get it's way without needing violence. If that contract were to be broken, then it's another story. The constition does also try and balance the rights of the against the will of the majority. However, just because a minority disagrees with a policy that does not entitle them to try and take over and impose their will on the whole.

Tyrants are not defined by their policies alone. They are primarily defined by the way in which they gain and retain power. It is completely contradictary to have a democratic process if at the end of they day those who lose are entitled to try and take power by force.
 
The whole point of democracy, however, is so that the large majority can get it's way without needing violence.
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It is completely contradictary to have a democratic process if at the end of they day those who lose are entitled to try and take power by force.
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Ah, I think I see where things are breaking down.

JustinJ, the Founding Fathers did not set up a democracy, they set up a republic. There's a difference. The very fact alone that we are now a "Democracy" shows that we have devolved away from being a republic, and will continue to devolve politically until something drastic happens. It's the way most, if not all, empires in the past have come to their demise.
 
"A democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on what to have for dinner. A republic is a well-armed sheep contesting the vote."
 
Blackstone said:
"A democracy implies that the majority can rule over the minority, am I correct?"
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Your definition is a correct one. So is this: Democracy = Mob rule.

Our Republic however is supposed to protect the rights of everyone. The majority is not supposed to be able to do anything that the individual is not allowed to do.

Example: If I don't have the right to kill or steal from you, neither can I confer that nonexistent right to the majority to kill or steal for me.

Just because the majority adopts a position, doesn't make it legal or just. The 2A is there to protect the people, individual or collective, from a tyrannical power, period.

Foreign or domestic, majority or minority, government or mob, doesn't matter. A quick look into the Declaration of Independence would reveal their motive for writing the 2A...
 
Dead on. We have a right to keep and bear arms so we won't need arms against our own home-grown tyrant.

Strategically, this is called "the force-in-being." The possession of arms (or of a navy, air force, etc.) makes it less likely you will need them, since the mere possession deters attacks.
 
For a something to have a deterrent effect on human behavior, it's effectiveness needs to be demonstrated from time to time. It has been a long time since this particular remedy was invoked, and its deterrent effect appears to be waning. I believe several states have called what they thought was a bluff. It is time to show them that it is no bluff, if the 2A is going to continue to have its deterrent effect on would-be tyrants.
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It's entirely possible to have an people that is armed and at the same time under the yoke of some paternalistic, overregulated welfare state.

Face it, the vast majority of folks who purchase guns these days are in essence just hobbyists, sportsmen, collectors, and recreationists.

We're not really talking about some Army of the People with unit cohesion and esprit de corps who are prepared to stand up for their country and liberty, even at the cost their life.
 
Ah, I think I see where things are breaking down.

JustinJ, the Founding Fathers did not set up a democracy, they set up a republic. There's a difference. The very fact alone that we are now a "Democracy" shows that we have devolved away from being a republic, and will continue to devolve politically until something drastic happens. It's the way most, if not all, empires in the past have come to their demise.
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Except that a republic and democracy(representative in our case) are not mutually exclusive so if there is a "break down" in understanding it's elsewhere. We happen to be both.

Our Republic however is supposed to protect the rights of everyone. The majority is not supposed to be able to do anything that the individual is not allowed to do.

Example: If I don't have the right to kill or steal from you, neither can I confer that nonexistent right to the majority to kill or steal for me.
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True, but how does that argument work against gun control so long as the laws are applied to all?
 
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