The Tactical 30-30 Lever Action Rifle

[JImbothefiveth]

if you need more than six rounds and there are fewer than 5 bad guys, you're doing something wrong.

People don't always stop with the first round.

2.

working the lever is just as fast as a semi auto because you don't disrupt your sight picture any more than recoil does.

It still takes more time, and sometimes a rilfe won't go off-target when it recoils, in which case semi-auto would be faster.

3. a 30-30 has way fewer protuberences than an MP5, or M4 does

I can't think of where those would be a problem and a lever wouldn't.

If the pump shotgun is an effective weapon despite it's limited capacity and manual operation, then so is the lever rifle.

Compared to what? A rifle can take advantage of semi-auto operation more, because it has less recoil. Also, a 12 gauge will probably have more stopping power, and go through less walls.

Mall Ninja concerns aside. Your not going to be shooting dozens of rounds anywhere but the range or for plinking. Legally your responsable for every shot you fire even when shooting in self defense. So 6 to 10 rounds will be plenty.

There was a news story a while ago about a cop who had to shoot someone over 20 times with his .40 before he stopped. Obviously a .30-30 has more stopping power, although it's still a concern.

In what situation, that a civilian might face where they could legally use a rifle, will a lever gun fail? How exactly would an AR, AK, SKS, or M1a help them in that situation?

If you shoot 5 rounds and the threat hasn't stopped? The AR or whatever would have more rounds. Although I wouldn't want to use an m1a indoors, it has more energy and maybe more stopping power than 30-30.

did try some fast short range COFs side by side. For 5 shots, scores were identical and times were less than 1 second faster with the auto. More practice would cancel that,

With more practice, the semi-auto will still be faster.

Lever guns were used as battle rifles, by the...Turks, I believe?

Against people using bolt-actions

Teddy Roosevelt and his motley crew of Rough Riders used a lot of lever action rifles to good effect in Cuba.

Yes, in the 19th century.

It isn't box magazine fed?

Partially

It isn't semi auto?

Yes

It fires a cartridge that is by order of magnatude many times more powerful than an AR's widdle bitty .22 caliber pill?

Depends on the lever gun. If it's much more powerful than the 7.62x39, I wouldn't want to use it indoors.

It isn't black?
It doesn't have a pistol grip

?
I prefer it have neither of those.

if the lever action is bad, then so is the Garand and m14

They are faster to reload and are semi-auto.

If rifle range is a must then an SKS or even an Enfield or Springfield ’03 bolt action seem better choices then a 30-30 lever gun.

I'd rather have the .30-30 for self-defense.

Could you provide a plausible scenario where 10 rounds of .44mag (94 Trapper) is not enough that 1) is survivable; 2) a 20/30 round mag is what have made it survivable; QUOTE]
If you are attacked by, say, 4 people, 10 rounds might not be enough, considering that it will often take more than one shot to stop someone.

So maybe a lever is the BEST HD and truck gun, huh? I allways thought the shotgun but maybe not.

How is it better? For HD I won't be shooting more than 15 yards, and a shotgun will go through less walls.

Okay. And one more thing, what's going to be better to come into court with after using your HD gun, an "assualt weapon" or grampa's deer gun?

I know they want to ban it, however, the mini-14 doesn't look like an "assault weapon"

Are you giving anything significant up for defensive handguns if you use revolver vs auto?

Yes, although you also gain some.

Given that handguns are underpowered, is a revolver a liability in self defense (and if so who is going to tell Mr. Cirillo?)?

Cirillo used his fine, while some FBI agents dies because theirs were underpowered,

Isn't a 357 lever gun at least as good as a 357 wheelgun?? Lets see 6 rounds in the revolver vs 9+1 in the lever gun. And the 158hp's grainers will be going faster from the lever gun than 125's will go from a 4" revolver.

Yes, however I think niether is as good as, say, a mini-14.

BTW full (modern lever action level) power 45-70 loads with 400 grain bullets will have trajectory very close to 357/158 grain loads from levergun.

I wouldn't want to fire a .45-70 indoors.

Don't worry about overpenetration

It's more of a concern if you have other people living in different rooms of the house.

The lever action's only disadvantage comes from being a little slow to reload. If you choose a rifle chambered for a revolver cartridge, or a 30/30, 35 Rem, 444 ect. with a full magazine. You will 8-10+ rounds at the ready.

No, calibers like 30-30 don't usually have that much magazine capacity.

Not too many BG's will stand and fight,

I hope they don't, however it's not good to count on that.

and if you're concerned about running out of ammunition, a pisol belt complete with pistol, extra magaz ines and flashlight makes a fine companion when you grab you're rifle (or in my case shotgun) in the middle of the night.

It's better not to have to switch to something with less stopping power, that is more difficult to aim.

Figure you just got to have them quick box magazine taktikewl (which is the correct spelling) reloads? May I recommend to you the Winchester Model 88, the Sako Finnwolf, the BLR, and some variants of the Savage Model 99?

It still can't shoot as fast as a semi-auto.

Afraid that the .30-30 or the pistol calibers just don't have the range and "knockdown" you need for the two or three gunfights you get into on a daily basis?

They probably don't have as much as a shotgun. Seeing as how I've never been in a gunfight, I figure the more I have the better.

Please check out all those same rifles. They are available new and used in all manner of real, true rifle cartridges.
Give it up chairborne rangers and mall-ninjas. For anything a civilian or 99.999% of LE is going to do, a lever gun will handle it.

Unless you get attacked by more than one person, or you hurt your arm, or perhaps some other scenarios.

I -know- I can ratchet off 170 grains into the black at 15-20 yards faster than I can hit the black with my pop's uber tactical AR carbine he's so fond of.

Most people can't. For most people, a semi-auto will be faster.

If you cant pop the dude in your own house within 7 rounds then you dont need a new rifle

Sometimes people just will not stop. Ever shot a deer that just wouldn't stop, or ran 100 yards? Now imagine if it was shooting at you.

The only FEATURE of a weapon that stops a fight is the projectile that enters the target nearest to Center Mass.

Yes, and semi-autos allow you to do that faster.

I enjoy the information that everyone has added. But I know for a fact that a 30/30 lever action rifle like a marlin, has more authority at 100yrds than a .223, 44mag, or a 357 mag.

When do you expect to shoot someone at 100 yards?

 

[JImbothefiveth]

Your shot placement is apt to be more sure of itself, again with a levergun than some others with a thirty round mag

Why?

Gunsmiths everywhere know lever actions inside and out.

I believe semi-autos are actually more common.

Ammo is your only added expense because you don't need 12 30 round magazines stashed away in a closet for when they ban standard mags again.

And you only have one magazine.

They throw the brass into one pile about 6 feet away instead of into a parabolic arc somewhere between here and the next time zone - this is a real asset to anyone who wants to shoot much with rising ammo costs because reloading saves money.

I shoot mostly .22s, so it's not a concern for me.

I have found that I can acutally hit stuff with them, which is more than I can say for most AK's I've shot (AR's and FAL's have also shot well for me though).

Define "stuff". You don't need too much accuracy for HD.

Ammo is available and is likely to stay that way. You don't need to stash 7000 rounds for them because of a fear that imported ammo will stop coming in - several domestic manufacturers produce ammo for them every day.

They also make it for .223 etc. I believe it's about the same price, people just buy the imported stuff because it's cheaper.

This also brings up the man vs. rifle mentality.
I have seen my dad hit running deer through the neck with one shot from his old 99 Savage. In spite of all the rounds I have fired in practice with all the guns I have owned, I still don't think I could do that with any of the semiauto rifles I have owned.

Is that because they are semi-autos or because you can't make the shot?

In a head to head fight against a guy with an AK, the guy with the AK would probably lose to my dad.
But at least he would have a full 30 round magazine to give him that warm fuzzy feeling while he was wondering how that old guy managed to get a shot off so fast...

What if the same guy had a lever gun and your dad had a semi-auto? I'd think that your dad would still win because he is a good shooter. (Of course, we all know that those who use semi-autos can't shoot. I heard it on the internet)

so he bought both Eagle and Ramline plastic ten rounders for the rifle.

Just as a note, I hear the 10/22 magazines they make are jam-o-matics. How did those magazines work?

rather face an incompetent with an EBR than an shooter with a lever action.

So does an EBR automatically make the shooter incompetent? I'd rather have an EBR than lever gun, seeing as how neither one affects my shooting skills.

IMHO the only thing the slide actions have over a Marlin or Winchester levergun is the easily replaced detachable box magazine. However, for vast majority of civilian defensive gun uses where the gun is actually fired, the 6 rounds that a 336's or 94's magazine holds will be enough.

A vast majority of people won't ever have to use it at all. Why handicap yourself?

The only advantage the shotgun has over the LA only applies if it is being used for an offensive role, and that is the ability to load it with the weak hand while it is still in the shoulder

The shotgun is also slightly easier to hit with, less likely to go through as many walls, and probably has better stopping power.

arrived at Alpine shooting range in Ft. Worth Tx at the same time that the guards from the fedreral prison were finishing up their qualifications with the AR 15 type rifles at the 50 yard range. The group included two men and two women. I believe the women had done most of the shooting. The man shaped targets were holed in every area except the 10 ring.

I asked the group if they were done and if it was allright to shoot at their targets. They said they were done and to go ahead. They watched as i removed my .357 Marlin and loaded 9 rounds in the magazine.

Normally the range does not like you to shoot faster than one round per second, but since the rangemaster was watching i thought i might get away with breaking the rules this one time.

I fired my 9 rounds as fast as i could lever the gun and get a flash sight picture. The gun never left my shoulder. When i had finished all 9 rounds were in the formally unshot 10 ring. I did have one round that cut the line at 9 o'clock. I ask the supervisor of the guards if i had qualified. He said that i most certainly did.

Do you honestly think if they had the lever gun and you had the AR they would have beaten you?

HD/SD w/o raising jury eyebrows (relative to AK)? Check.

Relative to a mini-14? Maybe. (And not if it's one of those ones that are painted black.)
Relative to a shotgun, probably not.

Most hunters consider 50 to 75 yards as max for deer size game with a 357 handgun. If you add that to the long gun it just became a 200/225 yard deer rifle.

I don't think a .357 magnum is a 200 yard deer gun. That's probably a bit of a stretch even for 30-30.

you need to go watch some cowboy action shooting and see how fast they can shoot a lever gun and with acuracy..

And people at speed shooting competitions can shoot a semi-auto even faster.

What some exceptional shooters can do doesn't affect what you can do. Most people can shoot faster with a semi-auto.

 

[Turtle56fred]

This is my CAR. 1894CS .357 mag with a 2.5x BSA pistol scope (bad eyes don't you know) and one of the most fun guns I've ever owned.

 

[lonewolf_75]

Marlin Trapper limited edition

New to this forum, just purchased a new Marlin Model 336 Trapper 30-30 with a 16.25" barrell.

http://www.galleryofguns.com/genie/default.aspx?item=336SDT

This gun was severely overpriced (only 500 were produced) but is absolutely beautiful, the black/gray composite stock looks much better in person than in photos and goes perfect with the stainless. My long time deer rifle was a standard 336 and I wanted a second rifle in 30-30, am not a bit disappointed with the new purchase. It's worth noting though that due to the shorter barrell the Trapper only holds 5 in the tube rather than 6. Luckily though I still have an SKS at the ready for the impending Chinese invasion and/or zombie apocalypse lol. Can't wait to put some lead downrange.

 

[phoglund]

Very nice Lone Wolf!

Welcome to the forum. I'm a real fan of the "Trapper" style lever gun and that one is about the best I've ever beheld! Give us a review when you've put that lead down range you mentioned!

 

[AStone]

Can't wait to put some lead downrange.

Lonewolf, welcome to THR.

Please keep us posted about how the SDT performs.

Here's one review by one of our best writers. In short, he likes it.

Me? I think I'm going to have my smith lop off my 336A
to somewhere between 16.5" - 18" and call it good.

 

[gunsandreligion]

Only problem lever guns have tactically is working the lever from the prone position

a 30 round mag for a AR sticks down more than a lever on a 30/30 also I can easily work a lever prone

 

[amd6547]

There is no doubt that a lever action can serve as a SD weapon. I have used three in that role over the years. Marlin 44mag, Winchester Trapper 30-30, and a rossi 44mag trapper. Any one of the three would have worked fine, though the 30-30 is overpowered for my SD needs. I didn't like the requirement of the lever action that it be kept loaded.
For a while, I went with various 9mm carbines, and was happy with their accuracy at extended range and the ability to keep them handy with a loaded mag separate. I have also occasionally kept my AR or AK as my HD longarm. Some here have derided the "long" 30rd mags. When I kept my AR shorty, I often used a 10rd mag as primary, with a 20rd reload. The AK, I often use with the short 20rd.
While I own both an AK and an AR, neither of which I would have a problem using for SD, I now use my CMP M1 carbine in that role. It is light, points well, has great sights, and the 30carbine round in soft point form offers just the right amount of power in a HD long-arm for me. With a 15rd mag in the gun and a GI pouch on the stock, I have 45 rounds to grab and go. It should be fairly jury friendly, and if an overzealous prosecutor attacks my "assault weapon", I can look at the jury and say "but, the government sold it to me..."
Having made MY choice, I would never try to dissuade someone else who has decided they prefer the lever gun. The lever gun works fine for SD, and has a long history of military, law enforcement, and private use. The gate loaded tube mag just doesn't fit my needs.

 

[lonewolf_75]

SDT follow up

Went on a weekend fishing trip with the girlfriend and took some .22 caliber guns along since she'd never shot before (Henry lever, Ruger 10/22, and Browning Buck Mark pistol). Of course, I also had to break in the new "Trapper Type" Model 336 30-30.

I put around 35 rounds through it at 50 yards, mainly a hodgepodge of old ammo of various types just to get rid of it. As a hunting round for my early 80s standard 336, I've committed to Winchester Super-X powerpoint 170 grain, and have been stocking up like a banchee ever since.

I was pretty happy with the shooting experience, but a few quick things are worth noting. First, I really liked the high visibility green/red sights, until I actually used them to shoot. The sights seemed very bulky to me while aiming at the target, even at 50 yards, so I may be looking at some replacement options in the future.

Also, the recoil seemed pretty stout, though not ridiculously so due to the recoil pad. Even so, I felt my self flinching a bit anticipating it, so switched back to the .22's for a while before returning to the 30-30. This may be due more to the fact that I rarely shoot more than several rounds through my other 336 when sighting it in for deer season, and am just not used to much more than that in one sitting.

Overall, it's a very fun and handy little gun and though I still think it was overpriced, I'm satisfied with the purchase. Since my other 336 has a scope, I bought the Trapper primarily as a super short range, iron sights rifle that could be used for home defense and heavy brush deer hunting, and it definitely fits the bill. I'd be very curious to see a side by side comparison of the 16.25" 336SDT vs. a regular 20" 336 when it comes to accuracy.

In short, the SDT is a great "tactical" 30-30 levergun, if (and only if) there ever was one.

 

[JFrame]

a 30 round mag for a AR sticks down more than a lever on a 30/30 also I can easily work a lever prone

Agreed...I had always heard the old saw that lever guns couldn't be operated prone, so just for grins, I tried it out with my Trapper .357.

No problem.

 

[Hoxviii]

Right now on RFDTV "Wednesday Night at the Range", "Shooting Gallery" is covering the tactical lever action rifle. Seriously.

 

[icebones]

back in the day they called the lever action Henry "that danm yankee rifle that you load on sunday and shoot all week"

do i own a lever action? heck yea, a few of 'em
would i ever use one for SD? maybe. if my 870 and bushmaster m4 ever got taken out of the fight.

you do what you can with what you have i guess.

 

[ghoster]

i have a lever 30-30. i dont need bullet spray because i aim. one shot from my 30-30 and bg head explodes.

it is actually very easy to chamber another round without moving the gun at all. i can also reload with out moving gun, yep i can hold gun agenst shoulder with one hand and load with the other. all without looking!!!!

learned it in school right after chew gum and walk at same time class.

if your in a true shtf situation then pick up the first bg's gun (that got his head blown off ) and now you have a real assult rifle, grab his mags too, he wont be needing them.--- might as well snatch the gernades as well.

 

[JShirley]

This thread is almost six years old.

An omyGawdzillion posts on any thread do not automatically make it worth reading: as a matter of fact, the longer the thread goes, the less useful, per page, it typically is.

I'm putting a bullet into this one's brainpan. Die, zombie thread.