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The ultimate "Appleseed Rifle" (warning opinion ahead)...

Discussion in 'Rifle Country' started by SMLE, Jun 5, 2008.

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  1. SMLE

    SMLE Member

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    This is not meant to be a discussion of the merits, or lack thereof, of the M16 rifle, or the 5.56mm cartridge. This is my personal take on the simple fact that, for better or worse, that is what the US Military uses.

    So what is the ultimate rifle for an Appleseed shooter or "Citizen Militia"?
    Ask the US Army and Marine Corps. It's an AR15 set up as close as possible to an issue M16A2/A4.

    Why the AR?
    Logistics. That ALL. Plain old logistics. Commonality of ammunition, magazines, parts, accessories, maintenance and support. When GI Joe starts actually packing a SCAR in 6.8 SPC or some other rifle and caliber combo, THEN and only then would THAT rifle be the Citizen Militia's choice.

    So what if you think the AR platform sucks? Or that the 5.56mm cartridge sucks?
    You're not alone. BUT. As long as the 5.56mm in an AR is the standard issue of the US Armed Forces, that is the rifle and round that the Citizen Militia should have.

    That's MY $0.02 worth of free opinion, YMMV.

    Good shooting.
     
  2. Nolo

    Nolo Member

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    Dupe.
     
  3. Nolo

    Nolo Member

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    Well, yeah, 'till we can't have such animals anymore.
    Then it's time for the Mosin-Nagant to come into it's own.
    In my opinion, the best citizen's rifle is the one you can shoot. Not an AR? Maybe it's a Mosin. Or an SMLE, or a Garand. Or, *gasp*, an AK.
    Got an AR? Your favorite, most organic, rifle?
    More power to you.
     
  4. Eightball

    Eightball Member

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    I've actually put some thought into this over the last few days as the election stupidity heats up. Point #2 is part of the reason I am glad to own an AR at this point, among all the other goodies associated with the platform.
     
  5. Nolo

    Nolo Member

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    Don't get me wrong, I'm itching to get an AR. I just think people should use what they can and learn to shoot what they can't.
     
  6. SMLE

    SMLE Member

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    That's when we'll need them most. And what kind of ammunition will we be taking off the "enemy"?
    All very good rifles. Which US Battalions carry them now? I love my SMLEs and my Garand. And my SAR 48. but there is not a sufficient logistics base to support those rifles. In the 1940s and '50s, the rifle I'm talking about would have indeed been the Garand. Late "50s, early '60s, the M14.
    Yes , I do happen to have an AR. I bought it for just the reasons I cite in my original post. Do I think it's the "be-all, end-all" of rifle design? No. But it IS the standard arm of our military and that's why every person who believes the the idea of the Citizen Militia should own one. And I'll also offer this article by Oleg as well. http://olegvolk.livejournal.com/423557.html

    I agree completely. Learn with what you have and can use best. But strive to upgrade your gear to the same standard as Uncle Sam.
     
  7. Wildfire

    Wildfire Member

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    ARs.

    Hey there:
    Some years ago I had an AR built for me. .223 .....
    May sound funny to some but, I am not NATO governed.
    Never will be. So my point here is Ammo is a changeable issue.
    I have tested hollow points in my Ar and found that they are very accurate.
    Way past any thing an AK or SKS or etc, could possilbly be. And at ranges they are not capable of. Those little 55 grain hollow points are nasty when they hit. I would never choose a shorter range round over the range of the .223... You can carry more ammo. Yes , I have a long range .308 bolt gun and that would do what it is intended to do and do it well. But the older I get the more distance I would like to keep between me and an agressor. (enemy).

    Maybe some of the AKs and others would be OK at closer ranges, but I still would rather have what I know.
     
  8. Nolo

    Nolo Member

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    Whatever I can get. It's a case-by-case basis. If that's 7.62x51, then it's 7.62x51. If I can't shoot the thing, my ammo is wasted anyway.
    Of course, no one is claiming the AR is hard to shoot. :D
    There's more .303 in the world than 5.56, I almost guarantee it. And that's with most of it being used up!
    Have an AR if you can, I agree. It's a must-have rifle. Or at least something similar. But not everyone can.
     
  9. Nolo

    Nolo Member

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    Owning and using are two different things entirely. Some of us may not be cut out to use an AR.
    I know it really ain't my style...
     
  10. SMLE

    SMLE Member

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    In the world? Yes. In the US? That is a good question. As for 7.62x51, that would keep your FAL or HK running for a while, But in a "STHF" situation, whose going to repair this rifles? You would likely wind up with an M16 anyway, even if it's not "your style". Of course an M14/M1A would be in the ballpark for the point I'm trying to make, I'll concede that. And in a SHTF situation, I just might grab an M240.

    But the basic point I'm driving at here is that, LOGISTICALLY, the AR is the rifle of choice for the prepared Militia man/woman.

    Good Shooting.
     
  11. Nolo

    Nolo Member

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    You adapt. If adapting lands you with an AR (as it will, most of the time), then that is that. If it lands you with your supreme war pike (Mosin) then that's another thing entirely.
     
  12. SMLE

    SMLE Member

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    Well said sir.
     
  13. Oohrah

    Oohrah Member

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    Yep, own the ugly black rifle with multiple mags, cause I can. Nope, not my
    1st choice of grab to use. That would most likely be one of my Garands
    SKS are kept for ammo that someone else might have. All my semi autos
    could be battle or sport rifles, as each caliber is backed by a scoped bolt
    gun. The bolts run forever without breakage in your SHTF ideas. Also
    ammo in a possible broken down semi auto can be run in them. Bolts also
    leave your reloadable brass in a neat little pile!!!:D
     
  14. Wildfire

    Wildfire Member

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    Black is ugly.

    Hey ;
    Here is ugly.

    Opps , Won't let me put photo on.
     
  15. dstorm1911

    dstorm1911 Member

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    SMLE "As for 7.62x51, that would keep your FAL or HK running for a while, But in a "STHF" situation, whose going to repair this rifles?"

    Why simple........ me of course, they are onea the absolute simplest semi auto battle rifles ever designed..... can ya reset the headspace on your AR in the field without tools? I can with a FAL and a multiplier ;) the really cool part is...... they seldom need repair
     
  16. jackdanson

    jackdanson Member

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    I don't know what the Space Technology Hall of Fame has to do with this thread. In the confines of a spaceship I would prefer a knife to a firearm.. especially a .308.

    Or wait, did you mean the Saskatchewan Team Handball Federation?
     
  17. SMLE

    SMLE Member

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    But what if you're cut off from your supply of spares? Granted you can carry several FAL head spacers (I can't remember the exact name of that part, DOH!) in a pocket, but what if you have a more catastrophic failure? And what about magazines. I can't get my FAL to work with USGI M16 mags. AND, not everybody can afford BOTH a rifle AND a large supply of spares and ammunition. If I had the resources of the .gov at my disposal, I might even prefer one of my SMLEs, but I still got myself an AR. I'm still sticking to logistics as the main point here.

    Good Shooting.
     
  18. elmerfudd

    elmerfudd Member

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    I think that for any kind of SHTF planning you ought to assume that there will be virtually no available spare parts or ammo once things get ugly and what is available will cost a fortune. If parts and ammo are a concern then you ought to stock up on them now while they are available.

    I haven't met too many soldiers that would be willing to sell ammunition and parts off their rifles to their potential adversaries. I also don't think US troops are going to willingly leave any weapons or ammunition behind.
     
  19. SMLE

    SMLE Member

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    Hopefully, there would be a significant number of US Troops who would consider us allies instead of adversaries. And if it came to fighting AGAINST the government, there would still be a fair amount of stealing/capturing/salvaging weapons and ammunition.

    Here is an expansion on my point here. Under certain circumstances, individuals might well be able to support their favored weapons for quite some time. But what I'm getting at here is that we need COMMONALITY of weapons, ammunition and supplies for larger scale GROUP operations whether in league with the Govt. assisting in national defense and keeping order, or in the event of the civil war that would develop if we had to take up arms against the Govt. The AR15/M16 platform has the largest installed user base, support base and logistics base in the United States. While one person may be able to stash away many thousands of rounds of ammo, the next 10 might barely be able to afford the rifle and 6 magazines to fill their LBE. Working TOGETHER, they can be stronger than the sum of their parts, but ONLY if they have a common weapon system between them. If I stash away a million rounds of .303 British, but only have 3 weapons that use it while my neighbors whom I am depending on for mutual aid and defense only have 30-06es. we're ALL screwed. In a situation like Katrina, it was mostly isolated individuals and families, but I'm talking about a NATIONAL SHTF situation. To me, it's "logistics over ballistics".
     
  20. 86thecat

    86thecat Member

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    If you use the same firearm as the troops around you its sound won't identify you as a target.

    If you are carrying 5.56 partitions everyone with fmj will want them.
     
  21. jackdanson

    jackdanson Member

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    Getting in once again before the close...

    Bah, the chances of something like this is nil. Rights are taken away slowly, like boiling a lobster...

    That said Smelly makes all valid points. With an AR there is no need to stockpile more than a few spare parts.. if it gets to the point of using it you will be able to find spares on the ground or you'll be dead.

    I hate SHTF threads, people are overly concerned. If S really hit the F most of us would be dead anyway. People overestimate their ability to fight sitting behind a computer screen.
     
  22. tntwatt

    tntwatt Member

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    This is the reason I have AR's Beretta's and Glock's. Millions of available parts in the USA. Do I think they are the best all round weapons? Not necessarily. Do I think I will be able to find parts and supplies for these easier if shtf. Most definitely.

    These are basic necessity firearms. That doesn't mean I won't be prepared if 303,308,45, 357 etc... will be all that's around my specific area.

     
  23. variablebinary

    variablebinary Member

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    Any gun is better than no gun IMHO. If there are battles, you'll get a new gun from the dead ASAP or get killed.
     
  24. The Highlander

    The Highlander Member

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    That is unless you have an early arquebus or hand cannon in which case your gun is both inneffective and prone to blowing up on the user.
     
  25. cracked butt

    cracked butt Member

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    Yep. But if you are in that situation, you'd better be way up on the learning curve on how to run that rifle you just picked up or you'll be dropping it real quick yourself.
     
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