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The Ultimate Conundrum

Discussion in 'Legal' started by Curare, Jun 28, 2005.

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  1. Curare

    Curare Member

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    Second Amendment Rights are in place to prevent tyranny.

    The government is gradually taking 2A rights away, with each step reducing our ability to fight tyranny.

    Yet with each passing gun law and restriction, we do not use firearms to protect our rights.

    In other words we are not using the tool the Second Amendement purposely offers us in order to preserve the Second Amendment and other freedoms.

    It's going to be difficult to stop a tyrannical entity if we have to go down to the neighborhood "gun club", break in to obtain our non semi-auto target rifles and take a box or two of serial numbered ammunition to attack our oppressors.

    It would be much more obvious to many citizens if the right were suddenly stolen, rather than embezzled over generations.

    Why haven't you taken up arms against your oppressor?
     
  2. The Rabbi

    The Rabbi member

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    Umm, it's illegal. I wouldnt be doing anybody any good by being dead or in jail.
     
  3. EghtySx

    EghtySx Member

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    It's illegal? I think that was his point. We are headed to where what you do now is illegal and it is getting harder and harder to stop them from chipping away at what we have left.

    ...


    I am kinda with The Rabbi here but Curare is right. We should have put an end to this erosion long ago by any means necessary.

    Give me liberty or give me death

    I don't think we have too many people like Patrick Henry around today. At least haven't met anyone who values liberty above their own life or it seems even above their freedom. Now, Comfort? Oh, we value comfort don't we.
     
  4. BeLikeTrey

    BeLikeTrey Guest

    If you notice...

    1st 2nd 5th and 14th are taking successive hits. these rights enumerated in the BOR are gradually being taken away. the hope is that by gradually doing this, those like you who want to stop it by force are few because a common populace boiling point hasn't been reached. I agree with you, but as of yet am uncertain what course would be more prudent to effect change. The property rights hit was a bad mistake before the complete abolition of the second amendment though... I think either it is a misstep or they are counting on the populace being soft. We'll see how things pan out with the folks up around Keldo's area.
     
  5. Werewolf

    Werewolf Member

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    All this talk of resistance using the 2A is nonsense. How pray tell would one go about resisting without the end result being anything other than jail or death for the resistors.

    In 1775 1/3 of the folks were pro-revolt, 1/3 pro-British and 1/3 just wanted to be left alone to live their lives. Communications took days, the revolutionaries mostly owned the press, they were armed pretty much like their adversaries and they were fighting on their home ground.

    Wake UP! THIS ISN'T 1775. :banghead: The government is here(!) not 3000 miles away on another continent across an ocean. There's no way the socialist press would back any revolutionary movement to replace the current government peacefully or otherwise and without the press there is no way IMO any resistance could be successful.

    It's totally reasonable that guys with guns and other combat expertise could make life miserable for the pols and even the government but they couldn't overthrow it - at least I can't imagine how they'd do it. I suppose a resistance could destroy the governmen (think NUKE in DC set off on the day the State of the Union address is given) but all that would result in would be the break up of the country into smaller nations made up of various states at best and the take over of the US by a foreign power at worst (maybe the Canadians would grow a set).

    Then there's that pesky hearts and minds of the people problem. The US population is too much into a collective, good of the group over good of the individual mindset to ever fight for the freedoms that the guys in 1775 were fighting for. As long as they got their beer, TV and a place to drink it and watch it the masses will be happy. So - even if 1/3 of the people (and that's a huge, gigantic stretch) decide to fight they're gonna piss off the other 2/3 enough that just walkin' down the street will be dangerous. All that would be accomplished is that the 1/3 who just want to be left alone would get annoyed enough to join the 1/3 that are pro-government.

    So where does that leave a potential resistance? Up feces river without a paddle that's where.

    I imagine that within the next 50 or so years there will crop up a violent resistance to the government. It'll kill a lot of folks and destroy a lot of property and the only result will be that the government will crack down to a point where the old Soviet Union will look like Freedom's Paradise in comparison.

    Gloomy prediction - I know - but the time has long past when the population of the US could successfully toss the bums out and restore true freedom in our country. I imagine the souls of the likes of Thomas Payne, Nathan Hale, Sam Adams, John Hancock, George Washington and the greatest of them all - Thomas Jefferson are all looking down on our nation, shaking their heads in contempt and wondering how what they created went so very, very wrong.

    ASIDE: The only hope of regaining our liberty is in a secession movement but that is so remote that it isn't even worth considering.
     
  6. Curare

    Curare Member

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    Before someone asks me "Why haven't you taken up arms against your oppressor," it's probably because I don't want to be dead or in prison--just like Rabbi suggests.
     
  7. rock jock

    rock jock Member

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    That depends on your perspective. Thirty years ago few states had anything resembling shall-issue CCW. Now, the majority of states do. Thirty years ago forearm-owners were at the mercy of individual state LE if traveling across country with a gun. Now we have the FOPA (yes, I know it included the MG ban). The AWB is gone. Al Gore very likely lost the '00 election based on the gun vote.

    Point is, the fight for RKBA has not been entirely a losing battle. We gain ground on some issues and lose some on others. Welcome to representative govt.
     
  8. Justin

    Justin Moderator Emeritus

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    THE CHAIR IS AGAINST THE WALL
    [​IMG]

    So you want someone else to go out and take all the risk for you?
     
  9. Risasi

    Risasi Member

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    Dudes, they can't take away your rights. All they can do is SUPPRESS them. It's your job to guarantee your rights.

    The recognizance of your rights hardly grants anything.

    Werewolf, you are funny.


    But you hit upon a key point. The most important thing is communication. The information age is upon us.

    [EDIT]
    Also I might add, the way the liberal agenda is winning is sneaky and underhanded. Since their agenda cannot argue against logic and common sense they have a two pronged form of attack. 1. The constant barrage of propaganda, in all forms of media. 2. The indoctrination of your kids in the government school system. Face it, it's very likely many of your kids in this next generation will be opposed to the BoR.
     
  10. 2nd Amendment

    2nd Amendment member

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    :rolleyes: Ahh yes, if you need a dose of daily negativity just come to this thread.

    IT"S ILLEGAL!

    IT CAN"T BE DONE!

    I might go to jail!

    I might get shot!

    Yeah, and your kids will live with a totalitarian dictatorship.

    You choose.
     
  11. The Rabbi

    The Rabbi member

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    I'll echo RockJock here. In some areas gun rights are much better than they were for most of the lives of the people on this board. We have no Federal waiting period and no Federal ID for ammo purchase. You can still purchase ammo on-line and have it shipped. The CCW phenomenon has already been mentioned. But most of all gun owners and the orgs that defend them are being seen as serious adversaries, not a bunch of right wing kooks. Pols are actually scared of gun owners, not getting shot by them but getting defeated in elections by them. This is a good thing. We need more of it.

    So get out there and start wasting those rascals, son! We'll send you all the ammo you need. :banghead:
     
  12. walking arsenal

    walking arsenal Member

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    So what your all saying is that there is no hope, we're all screwed.

    OR

    We're not all screwed but to change things we need to get together and vote?

    corupted gov, i dont see the vote thing happening, we are the minority and the minority (unless your gay, hispanic, feamale, homeless, or black) does not rule here.

    Resistance? right, not unless we want to bring down the thors hammer that is our military on our heads. Plus we would be labeled (if we havent been already) terrorists.


    Screwed screwed screwed.


    We need more people, we need more minds, free the minds, get involved in everything. lets take back the country.
     
  13. longeyes

    longeyes member

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    help is on the way

    Not to worry: Libertarian extra-terrestrials are coming to emancipate us.
     
  14. fjolnirsson

    fjolnirsson Member

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    The recent eminent domain ruling means they may not have a place to drink beer and watch tv. The ruling affects everyone, even renters. When Joe Sixpack gets a notice to be out in 24 hours,(because his landlord has lost the property) he's gonna get real uncomfortable, real fast. Especially if he misses Monday night football.
    As for citizens not being able to mount effective resistance against modern weapons(which I'm sure will be brought up soon), There are places in this country where popular sentiment will not be with the government. For an idea of what that could be like, look at what's going on in Iraq right now. Look at what happened in to our Rangers and Delta Force guys in Somalia. I guarantee you, there are folks in America with RPGs and more. And they won't all be fighting our special forces guys. Hel, some of them will be special forces. It'll be ugly, it'll be nasty, and the video will be rolling.
    Will it happen? Maybe not. It depends on whether or not people are mad enough, in large enough numbers, to fight the government. Myself, I'm not looking forward to a bloody revolution.
    YMMV
     
  15. Bubbles

    Bubbles Member

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    Because I'm still fighting them using the soap box and ballot box.

    Further, if or when I decide those tools will no longer work, there's no way I'd be stupid enough to say anything about my activities on an Internet message board.
     
  16. Werewolf

    Werewolf Member

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    And there in lies the rub...

    I'm pessimistic in that I truly do not believe that people will get either mad enough or mad enough in sufficient numbers to fight the government.
    Actually I never said they couldn't. If an active resistance ever developed in the USA (doubtful on any significant scale though IMO it will happen) I for one wouldn't want to be a soldier or policeman, a politician or councilman, a rep or a senator or any other representative of local, county, state or the US government.

    That said the immense size of our country and the nature of our government would make it so that any traditional resistance could never hope to be anymore than a severe annoyance. The only way for a resistance movement to change our government would be to destroy it because once the resistance goes active the government will clamp down, elections will be put on hold, the police will be given powers that the worst JBT in their midsts today can only dream of and the military will be patrolling the highways and byways of our nation. When that happens it won't matter whether Joe Sixpack gets mad or not.
    Yep - he will. But all the other Joe Sixpacks out there won't give a tinker's damn never imagining that one day it could be his turn. ED works against just one at a time and occasionaly many but never enough to actually tick off a big enough crowd to matter in the long run. Joe Sixpack and all his brothers have real short memories - he'll get moved and just drink his beer and watch his TV at his new house.
     
  17. thereisnospoon

    thereisnospoon Member

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    Pass me another beer, woulda Edith, huh?

    Wow,

    What a thread.

    I have to admitt that I have never been as angry as I am right this moment as I read this board. :cuss: Are we already that subdued? :cuss: :cuss:

    From the looks of this thread, we should give up ours guns now and vote Hillary in, to boot... :banghead:

    WHEN the time comes for that type of resistance, and it will- I hope each man, woman and other (alien/mutant, whatever) who reads and posts this board wil look at the situation and decide that freedom far outweighs the risk and that even though things may be futile, they will press on knowing that there sacrafice will be worth it. Even if we lose, meaning death, I believe that each sacrafice will be worth it somehow.

    Let me see if I can make a point from history.

    The Warsaw Ghetto Uprising
    Many Jews in ghettos across eastern Europe tried to organize resistance against the Germans and to arm themselves with smuggled and homemade weapons. Between 1941 and 1943, underground resistance movements formed in about 100 Jewish groups. The most famous attempt by Jews to resist the Germans in armed fighting occurred in the Warsaw ghetto.

    In the summer of 1942, about 300,000 Jews were deported from Warsaw to Treblinka. When reports of mass murder in the killing center leaked back to the Warsaw ghetto, a surviving group of mostly young people formed an organization called the Z.O.B. (for the Polish name, Zydowska Organizacja Bojowa, which means Jewish Fighting Organization). The Z.O.B., led by 23-year-old Mordecai Anielewicz, issued a proclamation calling for the Jewish people to resist going to the railroad cars. In January 1943, Warsaw ghetto fighters fired upon German troops as they tried to round up another group of ghetto inhabitants for deportation. Fighters used a small supply of weapons that had been smuggled into the ghetto. After a few days, the troops retreated. This small victory inspired the ghetto fighters to prepare for future resistance.

    On April 19, 1943, the Warsaw ghetto uprising began after German troops and police entered the ghetto to deport its surviving inhabitants. Seven hundred and fifty fighters fought the heavily armed and well-trained Germans. The ghetto fighters were able to hold out for nearly a month, but on May 16, 1943, the revolt ended. The Germans had slowly crushed the resistance. Of the more than 56,000 Jews captured, about 7,000 were shot, and the remainder were deported to killing centers or concentration camps.


    Now, many will say, "there ya go, they all died for nothing", but I would submitt that they died fighting for their race, religion, family, lover or whatever motivated them to pick up arms.

    Were they out numbered? Yes
    Were they out gunned? Yes
    Did they do it anyway? Yes

    Why? Because it was the right thing to do...

    Now our circumstnce is a little different, but not really. These people were about to lose their lives and they knew it. By this time, word was spreading about the killing of Jews, so they were fighting for their lives.

    We are only fighting for our way of life, but I submitt that if we don't do it soon, our way of life will be gone, Freedom will exist only in ancient, outlawed history books and firearms will only be a memory.
     
  18. cuchulainn

    cuchulainn Member

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    A failed armed rebellion would permanently destroy the RKBA in the USA. The likelihood that an armed rebellion would succeed in the USA is almost nil.

    If you're going to seriously consider the "bullet box option," you'd better be prepared to accept the responsibility that it's a sure bet that you'll fail, destroy the RKBA and make things much worse for your kids.

    It has nothing to do with being subdued, cowardly or defeatist. It's about recognizing reality rather than indulging in adolescent fantasies. While the children strut around bragging about what they'll do someday, the grownups will work towards the types of gains that Rockjock mentioned.

    The reason that the revolution will not be televised is because it won't occur. Deal with it. Move on. Do something useful.

    Anyway, none of you faux-revolutionaries are really serious. I know you think that you are, but you aren't. You're just hot air. All of you.
     
  19. thereisnospoon

    thereisnospoon Member

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    You wrote:

    A failed armed rebellion would permanently destroy the RKBA in the USA. The likelihood that an armed rebellion would succeed in the USA is almost nil.

    If you're going to seriously consider the "bullet box option," you'd better be prepared to accept the responsibility that it's a sure bet that you'll fail, destroy the RKBA and make things much worse for your kids.

    It has nothing to do with being subdued, cowardly or defeatist. It's about recognizing reality rather than indulging in adolescent fantasies. While the children strut around bragging about what they'll do someday, the grownups will work towards the types of gains that Rockjock mentioned.

    The reason that the revolution will not be televised is because it won't occur. Deal with it. Move on. Do something useful.

    Anyway, none of you faux-revolutionaries are really serious. I know you think that you are, but you aren't. You're just hot air. All of you.

    I say:

    Thank you for pretending to know what I'll do (or anyone else for that matter) when the time comes. I'm sure you knew what was in Todd Beamer's mind before he took charge and helped crash that plane into a Penn. field, but I guess that is just another immature fairytale...puhlease....People do extraordinary things in extraordinary times...

    People like you scare me...worse than an enemy I can identify, you pretend to be an ally when truely you are an apologist for those who would trample Rour Bill of rights and our Constitution. :barf:

    And in case you missed it, I said WHEN the time comes-and it will...until then I will continue to fight the good fight through the ballet box and the soap box.

    You my friend scare me.
     
  20. Standing Wolf

    Standing Wolf Member in memoriam

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    Oh, but it couldn't happen here... could it?
     
  21. cuchulainn

    cuchulainn Member

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    Yes, I understand that you believe to the core of your earnest, thumpity-thump little heart that you'll do something "when." You won't.

    But it doesn't matter. There will be no revolution. That's a fact. Deal with it.


    I haven't acted as an apologist for anyone. I've simply pointed out the realities of the battlefield. You can fantasize about the battle you want to fight, or you can fight the battle you need to fight.
     
  22. The Rabbi

    The Rabbi member

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    Face it Cuchulain, you've been outed. We all know now you're really..

    HILLARY CLINTON!
     
  23. cuchulainn

    cuchulainn Member

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    Are my canned-ham ankles that obvious?
     
  24. walking arsenal

    walking arsenal Member

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    It's the skirt, it's not you.
     
  25. Solo

    Solo Member

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    Because democracy has not collapsed yet?
     
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