The Unloaded Gun

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by Kleanbore, Oct 23, 2021.

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  1. The Last Outlaw

    The Last Outlaw Member

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    From what I've read, she took them out shooting, she was also solely responsible for securing all the weapons. The AD picked the gun up off a cart and handed it to Baldwin. That doesn't sound like it was secured to me. Doesn't matter who her daddy is, she screwed up royally.
     
  2. Waveski

    Waveski Member

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    [QUOTE="The Last Outlaw, post: 12100786, member: 268584" Doesn't matter who her daddy is, she screwed up royally.[/QUOTE]

    Double ditto.
    The movie armorer's job is to assure safe handling of all forearms on the set. The "armorer" in question did not control chain of custody of the gun the discharged a live round , did not assure the safe handling of firearms on the set.

    If she were the daughter of Chuck Yeager - would that make her a top test pilot?
     
  3. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator Staff Member

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    no one can.
    That's right.
     
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  4. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator Staff Member

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    All of them had been in a safe--secure.
    That was part of his job--along
    Firearms cannot remain in a safe during a production..
     
  5. The Last Outlaw

    The Last Outlaw Member

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    So it is secure, loaded, sitting on a cart? I don't think so. If she was doing her job correctly, the AD would have gone to her to get the gun and the gun would not have been loaded just for a rehearsal. She is at fault, maybe more so than Baldwin is.
     
  6. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator Staff Member

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    You apparently have a remarkable knowledge of how things are done on movie sets.
    The gun should not have contained live ammunition anywhere on the set.
    Not according to the law, in New Mexico or anywhere else.
    You seem to be overlooking the fact that the AD last handled the gun and did not clear it.
    There is a thread open on the shooting. This is a general thread about "unloaded guns".
     
  7. The Last Outlaw

    The Last Outlaw Member

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    I was just going along with the other posts in the thread, like you were when you quoted my post.

    I don't make movies, but I know the armorer is ultimately responsible for all arms used on set.
    Maybe you don't know a lot about making movies, but live rounds are used, so you are mistaken when you say none should have contained live ammo on the set.
     
  8. CraigC
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    CraigC Sixgun Nut

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    The theories and postulations that put the armorer solely at fault make too many assumptions. You also assume that they stuck to pre-COVID procedures. They have not, this we do know. I've heard from several sources that the crew is segregated into groups to limit exposure to one another.


    Then why is it that every armorer and union rep that's been interviewed has said explicitly that live ammo should NEVER be on set?
     
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  9. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator Staff Member

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    As long as a (fill in the title) complies with procedure, that person is not and cannot be responsible for an undetected safety violation by someone else.

    I have not yet seen anything but conjecture about any possible failure to perform a duty by the armorer, but the AD has admitted doing so, and it is clear that Baldwin did.

    Live rounds have not been used in movie making for years.

    The insurance contract for Rust specified that only blanks and dummy rounds were to be used in filming.
     
  10. Waveski

    Waveski Member

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    I can’t imagine any way in which “COVID procedures” can be legitimately factored into loaded/unloaded gun on a movie set- accidental/negligent discharge resulting in fatality.

    Safe handling of firearms is safe handling of firearms , pandemic excuses be screwed.
     
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  11. The Last Outlaw

    The Last Outlaw Member

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    I'll concede that I was wrong about the ammunition, but I still say the armorer is at fault.
     
  12. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator Staff Member

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    If you are basing that on the job description, you do not understand the principles of allocating fault. No one can bear the sole responsibility for safety. It would be an impossible job. What is required and expected is following procedure.

    That Baldwin aimed the gun, cocked it, pressed the trigger, and discharged a projectile is prima facie evidence of fault--of criminal negligence. Under New Mexico law, it does not matter who may have done what or failed to do it beforehand.

    The AD has said that it was his responsibility to check the gun before handing it to Baldwin, and that he did not do so.
     
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  13. CraigC
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    CraigC Sixgun Nut

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    They can if the armorer is segregated from the actors. We do know that she was not present at the scene when the shooting took place.


    Where did you read that the armorer took them out shooting? I have yet to hear who was doing the shooting, who brought the live ammo onto the set and who supervised/enabled the shooting.
     
  14. kneedtospeed

    kneedtospeed Member

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    Im finding it very strange that my posts here, totally within guideline rules, continue to get deleted, without any explanation.
    I dont believe I violated any rules.
    Why the unnecessary censorship?
     
  15. The Last Outlaw

    The Last Outlaw Member

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    The armorer's entire job is to control the firearms. She did not secure them, she didn't even know there was one be ammunition on the set. She was at fault, but I'll just agree to disagree with you, Kleanbore, and I'll leave your thread alone.
     
  16. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator Staff Member

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    "Control"? Even when an actor is holding one?
    Your basis for that assertion?
    Apparently true.
    I hate to put it quite this way, but you seem to lack the understanding necessary to make such a judgment.
     
  17. Roknstevo

    Roknstevo Member

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    I read a list of union rules regarding firearms safety on movie sets. One of the enumerated rules was when the scene calls for pointing a weapon at another actor, the shooter was required to aim a little bit away from the other to preclude possible injury. Obviously this was not the case with Baldwin.
     
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  18. Ivy Mike

    Ivy Mike Member

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    You would win that bet.
    https://www.safetyontheset.com/resources/amptp-bulletins/

    Here they are from the AMPTP. Read #1 and #2. I'm sure there are others, but this is the set I'm familiar with. You'll find some specific industry stuff in there, but sprinkled among the document, you'll also find the good old 4 Rules of gun safety.
     
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  19. Ivy Mike

    Ivy Mike Member

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    If you want to read through those industry guidelines and rules, you'll see just how serious these things are taken. Remember too that this is after the death of Brandon Lee while filming The Crow. In fact, you can read them here: https://www.safetyontheset.com/resources/amptp-bulletins/

    But honestly, you have to try to be this negligent and unconcerned with safety. Walk through this whole mess with me and you'll see what I mean.

    So, the cast/crew takes out movie guns to go target shooting. While this is questionable, I might not complain too much although my guess is they didn't go to a real range of any sort. They were probably just walking off into the New Mexico desert and shooting at stuff. My answer would have been that if you want to go have target practice, go to a range, rent a gun and have at it, but movie guns don't leave the set.
    But this means that someone brought real live ammunition to a set, which is the first red flag. You NEVER do that, ever. Next, they did their shooting and brought the gun back with a live round in it. Which means someone stepped back off the firing line with a loaded gun and didn't bother to check or clear it. Any range officer worth a damn would have pointed out this is a no-no. The gun comes back on set with real live ammo (violation #2 of the no real ammo rule) and the armorer does not clear it...again. This is her only damned job! She is responsible for all the weapons and ammo, including their safe storage.
    The loaded firearm, at some point, gets left unattended and out of the armorer's gun safe and an Assistant Director grabs it (only the armorer is supposed to touch the guns according to the rules) and without checking it, declares it to be safe and hands it to Alec Baldwin. Baldwin ignores multiple AMPTP rules (which also include Col. Cooper's 4 Rules) points the gun at actual people and pulls the trigger, killing one person and wounding another.

    If Baldwin had only popped off a blank, we'd have likely never heard a thing about it. But Baldwin killed someone because of his own carelessness and even worse, because the armorer on set was completely negligent. You quite literally have to try to be this careless with a firearm. A weapon that has the capability to end someone's life, and she couldn't be bothered to put her foot down and follow industry guidelines that have been in place for decades. Hundreds and hundreds of guns get handled in the business every single year without a single incident, and this lady has multiple negligent discharges on one set, one gunshot injury and a fatality. That ain't bad luck. You have to be so cavalier in your duties that you just don't care.
     
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  20. The Last Outlaw

    The Last Outlaw Member

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    Looks like Ivy Mike has the right answers. As far as my understanding goes, it doesn't matter what you think about it, I'll just let it go. I'll leave your little thread for good now, have a great day
     
  21. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator Staff Member

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    Your "walk though" includes conjecture, reports of rumor, some things that appear likely, and reports that have been verified.

    It may be consistent with what happened--or not.

    All we know now is that (1) the actor fired a live round, killing one person and injuring another, thus committing involuntary manslaughter; (2) the AD says he was supposed to check the gun, but did not; (3) least one live round, and perhaps more, found its way onto the set.

    Your comment " this lady has multiple negligent discharges on one set, one gunshot injury and a fatality" constitutes an assignment of culpability that has not been supported by evidence yet made public, or by legal opinion. It is irresponsible.

    We should soon hear what the sheriff's department has to say about it. They will have heard actual testimony, taken actual depositions, and handled real evidence, and they will have weighed the conflicting accounts of witnesses that have been reported.
     
  22. Ivy Mike

    Ivy Mike Member

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    I do know a few things as I have worked on prop crews in the past.
    1. Yes, the armorer (or prop master - whoever is tasked as weapons master) is responsible for not only the guns but the ammo as wel.
    2. Real ammunition like we'd buy from the store is NEVER to be brought on set. There is no reason to ever have real live ammunition on a set.

    now, the definition for live ammo varies a bit when you're talking about movies and TV. Live ammo is basically anything with powder in it. A blank is live ammo on a movie set. Simunitions are live ammo on set. If it can go bang or pop, it's live. But industry generally forbids real live ammunition on any set where guns will be used.

    THR live ammo: Can actually send a projectile down range.
    Movie live ammo: Anything that goes bang. This carries the implicit understanding that you'll never had real ammo anywhere near the set to preclude the possibility of shooting someone.
     
  23. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator Staff Member

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    Excellent input, Mike. It is informative and helpful for those who did not know the terminology before.
     
  24. Ivy Mike

    Ivy Mike Member

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    The armorer is the sole person responsible for the guns on set. This is industry practice and I have worked in the industry. Same way the armorers at an Army base are responsible for all the firearms and a Gunner's Mates would be responsible for them on a US Navy ship. When the guns and ammo are not issued out, the armorer is responsible. The very fact that someone else picked up a gun without the armorer's knowledge is all the evidence I need to make that assessment. If there are too many guns for one person to safely account for, they should hire an assistant.
    The AD is not supposed to check the guns, the armorer is. That is her job. It's her ONLY job on that set. Leaving a gun out on a cart unattended is just as irresponsible as leaving one out in your own home with small children around. Sure, they should know not to touch one, but is it worth the risk when you could walk 20ft to your safe on your way to the bathroom? If a child popped the family dog, is it their fault for touching the gun or your fault for leaving it out? That's why those guidelines are written the way they are; to mitigate even the smallest risks. An actor or director should know not to touch the guns on set, but why not just lock them up if you have to step away to take a leak?

    I have made a couple lengthy posts and provided guidelines for weapons handling used by industry. I do understand that some of these aspects might change in the future, but there is good reason for the guidelines. As someone else said, safety rules are written in blood.
     
  25. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator Staff Member

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    Or the property master.

    From a legal standpoint, that does not and cannot result in the assignment of total liability to that person.

    Had the gun that fired the fatal bullet not been "issued out" for a rehearsal?

    So the rules appear to say, but the AD on Rust has reportedly said otherwise in an affidavit.

    No.

    Actors customarily handle guns loaded with blanks and dummy cartridges on movie sets--right?

    Look, folks, this conjecture about the tragedy in New Mexico has run far off the track of the OP. We shall soon hear with the County Sheriff has to say. Let's wait.
     
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2021
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