CZ-100
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Another good movie on the subject is "The Pianist"
The Warsaw Ghetto Uprising,April,1943:Last Surviving Commander Remembers
- Thread starter Winchester 73
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My favorite statistic:
Time the entire Polish army held off the Nazis before giving up: 2 weeks
Time the small number of minimally-armed untrained starving persecuted Jews in the Warsaw Ghetto held off the Nazis: Almost a month- and they never gave up!
This deserves a repost on this page:
Amen and Happy Passover!
Time the entire Polish army held off the Nazis before giving up: 2 weeks
Time the small number of minimally-armed untrained starving persecuted Jews in the Warsaw Ghetto held off the Nazis: Almost a month- and they never gave up!
This deserves a repost on this page:
Amen and Happy Passover!
Treo
member
Warsaw wasn't the only uprising in 1943 ( I think) 600 Jews at the Sobibor death camp in Sobibor Poland. Led by a Russian Jew named Alexandr Perchefsky ( a POW who was sent to that camp W/ small number of Jews who were in the Soviet Army) over powered and killed their S.S. guards and escaped. Himmler ordered the (empty) camp destroyed the next year.
It's amazing what you can accomplish when you have nothing to lose.
It's amazing what you can accomplish when you have nothing to lose.
Winchester 73
member
It is amazing.
Treo - if you take a look at the essay I linked to, you'll see some brief descriptions of about a half dozen revolts or planned revolts. Both Sobibor and Treblinka were permanently shut down following Jewish uprisings.
In fact, though, one of the main reason there weren't more revolts was that the Germans set things up so that potential fighters always had something to lose. Their policies of collective responsibility generally prevented serious resistance. If they were opposed, the Nazis would summarily execute a significant number of randomly chosen Jews, and most potential fighters were unwilling to shoulder the perceived responsibility for such retribution.
In fact, though, one of the main reason there weren't more revolts was that the Germans set things up so that potential fighters always had something to lose. Their policies of collective responsibility generally prevented serious resistance. If they were opposed, the Nazis would summarily execute a significant number of randomly chosen Jews, and most potential fighters were unwilling to shoulder the perceived responsibility for such retribution.
bigjohnson
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During the time of the Warsaw uprising, the soviet Red Army was fast approaching Warsaw from the east. On the orders of Joseph Stalin, the Red Army stopped its' offensive, and waited until the Nazis had crushed the uprising before continuing westward and capturing the city. Stalin wanted to make sure that there were no "jewish troublemakers" left in Poland when the Soviets took control after the war was over.
The Soviets were close enough to have provided air support to the Jewish fighters, and to have air-dropped supplies and weapons to them, but refused to do so.
The Nazis weren't the only bad guys in that war.
The Soviets were close enough to have provided air support to the Jewish fighters, and to have air-dropped supplies and weapons to them, but refused to do so.
The Nazis weren't the only bad guys in that war.
Warsaw Ghetto Uprising 1943 & Warsaw Uprising 1944
In Warsaw there were 2 uprisings during II World War.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warsaw_Ghetto_Uprising
The Warsaw Ghetto Uprising (German: "Aufstand im Warschauer Ghetto", Polish: "Powstanie w getcie warszawskim") was the Jewish insurgency that arose within the Warsaw Ghetto in Poland during World War II, and which opposed Nazi Germany's effort to transport the remaining ghetto population to the Treblinka extermination camp. The insurgency was launched against the Germans and their Jewish collaborators on January 18, 1943. The most significant portion of the insurgency took place from April 19 until May 16, 1943, and ended when the poorly-armed and supplied resistance was crushed by the German troops under the direct command of Jürgen Stroop. It was the largest single revolt by the Jews during the Holocaust.[3]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warsaw_Uprising
The Warsaw Uprising (Powstanie Warszawskie) was a World War II struggle by the Polish Home Army (Armia Krajowa) to liberate Warsaw from German occupation. The Uprising began on August 1, 1944, as part of a nationwide rebellion, Operation Tempest. It was intended to last for only a few days until the Soviet Army would reach the city. The Soviet advance stopped short, however, while Polish resistance against the German forces continued for 63 days (until October 2).
In Warsaw there were 2 uprisings during II World War.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warsaw_Ghetto_Uprising
The Warsaw Ghetto Uprising (German: "Aufstand im Warschauer Ghetto", Polish: "Powstanie w getcie warszawskim") was the Jewish insurgency that arose within the Warsaw Ghetto in Poland during World War II, and which opposed Nazi Germany's effort to transport the remaining ghetto population to the Treblinka extermination camp. The insurgency was launched against the Germans and their Jewish collaborators on January 18, 1943. The most significant portion of the insurgency took place from April 19 until May 16, 1943, and ended when the poorly-armed and supplied resistance was crushed by the German troops under the direct command of Jürgen Stroop. It was the largest single revolt by the Jews during the Holocaust.[3]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warsaw_Uprising
The Warsaw Uprising (Powstanie Warszawskie) was a World War II struggle by the Polish Home Army (Armia Krajowa) to liberate Warsaw from German occupation. The Uprising began on August 1, 1944, as part of a nationwide rebellion, Operation Tempest. It was intended to last for only a few days until the Soviet Army would reach the city. The Soviet advance stopped short, however, while Polish resistance against the German forces continued for 63 days (until October 2).
Stalin was just an usurper. He violated his country's contract by signing that forbidden contract with Hitler. He should have recognized the malignant hatred of the German fascist and invaded them and annihilated them first. The Holocaust could have been prevented if Russia fired the first shot and toppled the Third Reich.
Lenin and Trotsky were the true Marxists.
sumpnz
Member
Stalin was just as much the anti-Semite that Hitler was. Had he known about the Holocaust ahead of time, he'd have held off on attacking Germany just to let them finish off the Jews first. It would have saved him the effort.
Halo
Member
The Soviets were in no position to preemptively invade and defeat Germany, not by a long shot.
Treo
member
No Offense Guys But,
I don't know who's ever been to the Alamo but on the door of the main chapel there's a bronze plaque that says " Be silent freind & gentlemen remove your hats, for here heros fell"
Now I realize we're all lost in cyber space but I think this thread deserves the same type of respect.
This (IMO) isn't the place to be arguing facism Vs. communism or Stalin Vs. Trotsky.
This is a place to remember the heros that fell
Like I said that's my opinion and no one has to agree W/ me but I felt like it needed saying
I don't know who's ever been to the Alamo but on the door of the main chapel there's a bronze plaque that says " Be silent freind & gentlemen remove your hats, for here heros fell"
Now I realize we're all lost in cyber space but I think this thread deserves the same type of respect.
This (IMO) isn't the place to be arguing facism Vs. communism or Stalin Vs. Trotsky.
This is a place to remember the heros that fell
Like I said that's my opinion and no one has to agree W/ me but I felt like it needed saying
Cosmoline
Member
There was a movie back in the 80's called Escape from Sobibor. Rutger Hauer was in it. I have a copy on one of those cheap-as-food "WWII MOVIE" dvd sets. IIRC, the Germans were trying to house able-bodied Jews and Red Army POW's together but it backfired as the two groups started cooperating. The martial skills of the soldiers were put to good use and they came close to eliminating all the Germans before they were discovered and had to flee. Even so a goodly number survived the war. More than would have otherwise.
KingTiger
Member
The Poles have never been known to back down from a fight. In 1939 they pitched cavalry against the German Panzers. My father joined the USN in December 1941 when he was 17.
Treo
member
QUOTE: "There was a movie back in the 80's called Escape from Sobibor. Rutger Hauer was in it."
That's how I found out about it. At first I thought the story must be fiction because surely something like that would have made the history books. I googled it and found out that it was for real and the movie was actually fairly accurate. They had a recent photograph of Lt. Perchefsky in the article he was sticking his tongue out at the camera. I'd say he earned the right.
That's how I found out about it. At first I thought the story must be fiction because surely something like that would have made the history books. I googled it and found out that it was for real and the movie was actually fairly accurate. They had a recent photograph of Lt. Perchefsky in the article he was sticking his tongue out at the camera. I'd say he earned the right.
Time the entire Polish army held off the Nazis before giving up: 2 weeks
Time the small number of minimally-armed untrained starving persecuted Jews in the Warsaw Ghetto held off the Nazis: Almost a month- and they never gave up! This is the most idiotic paragraph I'v ever run accross. You shoud read more about Juderat police in Warsaw Getto and how they shipped his own folks to Koncentration Camps.
Time the small number of minimally-armed untrained starving persecuted Jews in the Warsaw Ghetto held off the Nazis: Almost a month- and they never gave up! This is the most idiotic paragraph I'v ever run accross. You shoud read more about Juderat police in Warsaw Getto and how they shipped his own folks to Koncentration Camps.
Officers'Wife
Member
Treo,
And I feel it bears repeating. I hear all the stories of the men and women that simply followed orders and allowed themselves to be systematically slaughtered. These stories are seldome told.
"It matters not, the cause is lost
And we cannot turn the tide.
We shall honor the past,
And fight to the last
It will be a good way to die."
Selena
And I feel it bears repeating. I hear all the stories of the men and women that simply followed orders and allowed themselves to be systematically slaughtered. These stories are seldome told.
"It matters not, the cause is lost
And we cannot turn the tide.
We shall honor the past,
And fight to the last
It will be a good way to die."
Selena
Maybe someone can correct me if they think I am wrong, but I was told a while back that the Jewish fighters in the Warsaw Ghetto uprising tried to get support from the normal Polish underground, but were refused. Do any of those histories mention this? It was in a short write up on antisemitism and noted the irony of the two uprisings in relation to that refusal.
That is one of the most terrible things I ever heard. Stalin does not even deserve the "Communist" name. He orchestrated the deaths of Lenin and Trotsky to rise to power and he installed regime similar to the Third Reich, extremely brutal and non-hesitant in murdering political and ethnic enemies.
No, Hitler wasn't only the 'bad guy' in this picture, as one of you wrote it. Stalin was also responsible for the fearful slaughter of human beings. And I also want to mention that Anti-Semitism has very long roots in Europe, since the time when Charles Martel unified the Frankish clans. Jews in Europe has been subjected to periodic waves of terror and fear in Europe's long and bloody history. For example, during the Black Plague, Jews were blamed for poisoning the wells, and may were later killed in orchestrated violence.
Later on, during the Thirty Years War, Sephardic Jews were the targets of the murderous Inquisition. The ones living in the Holy Roman Empire suffered as well.
In the middle to late nineteeth century another wave of orchestrated violence and mayhem struck the Jewish population, this time in Poland and czarist Russia. This is when we began to have an understanding of the word "pogrom", which essentially stands for ethnic cleansing.
By the time the Second World War began, there were many communities in Nazi occupied Europe that had held centuries long grudges against the Jews. In Poland, Romania, Bulgaria, Yugoslavia, and Albania, entire communities turned against their Jewish neighbors and killed many of them. The most fearful of all of them was the one in a certain Romanian town, where almost 12,000 Jewish inhabitants were killed by their fellow townspeople in cold blood. Another one such atrocity took place in T----------------, Poland.
When one look at it from a historian's point of view, Hitler was only a violent catalyst that caused the fire to spread in many other places, although the original flame was the most hot and vicious. Europe was just a powder keg waiting to be ignited into a devastating ethnic war within a world war.
hank327
Member
From what I remember, I believe that fewer than 1000 Jews were active participants in the fighting. By April 1943 the Nazis had removed most of the inhabitants of the Ghetto. The Ghetto Rising began when it became clear that the Nazis were going to empty the Ghetto of all the remaining residents and send them to the death camps. The Ghetto fighters were very poorly armed. Most of their weapons consisted of handguns bought from the Polish Home Army, (the non-Jewish resistance) and corrupt Nazi guards. In addition to the handguns, there was a handful of Mauser K98 bolt action rifles available to the Jewish resistance when the rising began. IIRC, the Jewish fighters had no automatic weapons and that fewer than half of their number had a firearm of any type.
As mentioned earlier, there were many different factions among the Jews of the Ghetto and those who advocated active resistance to the Nazis were definately in the minority. Also, the main Polish resistance group, the Polish Home Army, was actively hostile towards the Jews. Antisemitism ran strong and deep among Polish Catholics and there was literally no cooperation and very little assistance given to the Jews. For what little assistance the Home Army provided, they charged the Jews an exorbitant price and the Jews had to pay in gold or jewels. The whole story is just heartbreakingly sad.
Yes, as hank327 said, the majority of the gentile Polish underground was either unsympathetic or downright hostile to the Jewish fighters. Outside the cities, Jewish partisans tended to form their own segregated units, simply because none of the existing Polish groups would accept them.
One such group was the FPO (Jewish Fighting Organization) formed in the Vilna ghetto. They attempted to spark resistance when the Nazis liquidated the Vilna ghetto, but the Jewish population would not support them. So instead, they fled to the forests and formed a partisan unit that was active until the end of the war. The third person from the left in the back row is Abba Kovner, leader of the group.
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