There's no reason for this to EVER happen.

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by JohnKSa, Dec 9, 2020.

  1. Offhand McFlan

    Offhand McFlan Member

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    645121m2_ts.jpg When I bought a S&W Shield, I put the aftermarket IWB belt clip on it...but I never would have done that if it didnt have a safety. The safety has NEVER flipped off by itself in my pants and I've had it 4 years. It's a very simp⁸le and discrete thing to gently thumb it and make sure. I can do that through an overhanging shirt with no problem. I like the belt clip, but I end up using a holster at least half the time anyway for both comfort AND safety.

    The runner up to my Shield when I was shopping was Bersa's BP9cc (photo). I really liked that gun, but no safety and a very light short-travelling trigger were deal breakers.

    I also dont like the idea of carrying an SA only handgun, one in chamber and cocked and locked. I just won't do it unless I'm hiking or really expecting bad doo-doo (like angry mobs rioting). In that case I'd prefer one, but not for casual every day business or work where I move around or sit down alot and cant be incognito when I do a safety check.
     
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  2. bikerdoc

    bikerdoc Moderator Staff Member

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    Been carrying since 66, never owned a pistol with out a safety!
     
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  3. GEM

    GEM Moderator Staff Member

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    YMMV. A police officer told us a tale of how he used to carry a 1911. Then he got into a fight with an emotional disturbed person. The office has his strong hand thumb broken so badly, it was dangling. Thus, if he had to, he could manipulate a thumb safety. Now, his duty gun is one with no safety.
     
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  4. JohnKSa

    JohnKSa Moderator Staff Member

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    Well, I've certainly made mistakes in my life. I've tried to learn from them though, and also tried to learn from the mistakes of others so I don't have to make as many myself to gain knowledge the hard way.

    Pointing out a mistake and ways to avoid it doesn't imply faultlessness on the part of the person who's doing so. I carried for years, when I first started out, using a method that I would strongly suggest others not try to duplicate. Fortunately, it never backfired on me, but if it had, about the only way I could have defended myself was to claim I didn't know any better--which would have been a pretty sad defense. Well, I can't go back and change things, but it is possible to try to help others make good decisions, and often the best way to do that is to give real-world examples of people who made poor decisions and to show the consequences.

    Also, I think if you read carefully, almost all include options for carrying a gun safely or for the type of gun to carry. It's not so much "do it like I do" or "use my gun" as much as it is, "here are some ways it could be done safely" and some "types of guns that could be used safely". These forums are about sharing experiences, good & bad, and knowledge. The nature of reality is that everybody only has a limited amount of experience and knowledge to share. Of necessity, that means that any given person will only be able to provide some options from experience and some options based on knowledge, but the beauty of this format is that many people can weigh in resulting in much more experience and knowledge being provided.
    I would argue that a lot of useful information has been provided. As far as the guy who fired his gun intentionally in the mall while adjusting his pants, he deserves to be belittled and maybe even deserves to be charged with a crime. And while he might be a fellow gun owner, I'm not going to defend his actions nor keep silent while others do. What he did could have been easily avoided and could have had deadly results--people need to hear that, understand it and be provided with practical ways to avoid it. If it hurts the guy's feelings, that's too bad. Stupid actions have consequences--that's exactly the point of the this thread.
    Yes. I mentioned that there are valid uses for manual safeties, and this is one. If a person decides to carry a chamber-loaded gun without a holster that protects the trigger and prevents trigger manipulation, a manual safety is required.

    I'm going to stop just short of personally recommending this approach because I think there are better options (e.g. a good holster that protects the trigger), but it is one application for a manual safety that makes sense and one that I have used on occasion.
     
  5. D.B. Cooper

    D.B. Cooper Member

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    Hear it a million times, pal. Doesn't hold water, at least with me. That's a training/muscle memory issue, nothing more.

    We've had this discussion before at THR. I recall someone asking if I thought manual safeties should be mandated by law like seat belts (I had compared safeties to seat belts). At the time, I said no, but I'm starting to rethink that the position. Of course, it's a pointless endeavor as those who absolutely insist on carrying locked and loaded, with a charged striker sitting over the primer will simply not use, disable, or remove the safety.

    The harsh reality of this is that most people will handle and manipulate their guns administratively far more than the maybe, possibly, once in their entire lives, draw their gun in battle. The odds are in favor of an accidental discharge while handling the gun than the odds of drawing the gun in battle and forgetting the safety. But I've made this argument many many times here at THR and at other places.
     
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2020
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  6. jmorris

    jmorris Member

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    There is no IQ or common sense test in order to obtain a license to carry or drive an automobile.

    There are owners of both that put others lives at risk everyday.
     
  7. bearcreek

    bearcreek Member

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    That's fine. Man's entitled to his opinion, even if most of his peers don't agree.
    Of course. That's why I said it's more of an issue with novice shooters.

    We certainly have, and I'm sure we'll have it again, and again, and again. It's like herpes, or AR vs AK discussions. It never goes away for good. ;)
     
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  8. D.B. Cooper

    D.B. Cooper Member

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    LOL. You win the internet today.
     
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  9. FFGColorado

    FFGColorado Member

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    Funny how these types of threads always evolve to a safety or not thread.

    Only been carrying since 2016 and have never carried any gun with an 'external' safety. Only ND I have had was with my SA Berreta/Uberti...Never have owned any handgun with a external safety. My rifles all do.
     
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  10. FFGColorado

    FFGColorado Member

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    Yup, lots of dumb drivers out there but the written test and driving test certainly 'tests' some 'common sense'..meaning the 'common sense' to answer enough questions right and to take the driving test safely.....
     
  11. jmorris

    jmorris Member

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    I suppose there are written and live fire tests for a CHL in my State as well. That said, my State does not require any draws from a holster, zero and you can get a license without even owning one.

    On the drivers license side you don’t even have to know what the “710” cap is for, apparently, even if you blush a little bit when told the cap is upside down and actually reads “OIL”...

    The same girl when asked “how much gas does it hold?” Replied, “Duh, a full tank.” She was technically right on that one. :)

    I hear she was a good test taker.
     
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  12. FFGColorado

    FFGColorado Member

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    I get it...BUT I think you know what I mean. MY state(CO) 'requires' a CCWP 'class', no 'tests' of any kind..no practical knowledge tests like range time. MY CCWP course was about 30 minutes of useful knowledge crammed into 5 hours of NRA membership drive, a recap of the 2018 midterms and Carry insurance sales pitch.
    Only $90:mad:. To own, like just about everywhere else, $ and a clean BGC.

    And yes , driver's license testing, it is designed for the 'lowest common denominator'..

    And NO, I'm not advocating anything with regards to gun ownership, testing, licensing-wise. NOT advocating any kind of 'infringement...so for 'some' of y'all(jmorris excluded), just stay calm and 'carry'(get it??) on....

    I was just commenting on
     
  13. D.B. Cooper

    D.B. Cooper Member

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    And for obvious reason. How many of these accidental discharges happen as a result of anything other than someone or something unintentionally pulling the trigger? Think about it? When was the last time that a loaded a gun simply fired for no reason whatsoever and with no outside input from someone or something? By comparison, how many of these accidental discharges happen as a result of someone or something unintentionally pulling the trigger? And that is exactly the kind of accidental discharge that a properly working and properly engaged external, manual safety will prevent.
     
  14. JohnKSa

    JohnKSa Moderator Staff Member

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    From someone? A lot of them--definitely the large majority--about 2/3 of the time when a gun discharges unintentionally it's the result of a finger on a trigger. From something? Very few. In the survey/poll mentioned earlier, 1.2% of unintentional discharges resulted from a foreign object pulling the trigger. In fact, a gun is about 7 times more likely to actually just "go off" due to broken parts or defects than it is to be discharged unintentionally from "something" (other than a finger) pulling the trigger.
    Which gets us back to what I said earlier. Since the problem is people not following the gun safety rules, which are extremely simple, how is giving them something else to do likely to help the situation? If a person can't remember to lock their front door, will putting another lock on the door help? If a person can't operate their cell phone properly, will adding another button make it easier for them?

    The root of the problem is the person carrying/handling the gun and their attitude/training/mindset. Another control on the gun isn't going to fix that. Better to focus on the problem instead of trying to fix the symptoms with a "solution" that pretends that the same person who doesn't have the proper mindset/training to handle a gun will have the proper mindset/training to operate a manual safety properly.
     
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  15. Sniper66

    Sniper66 Member

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    The title of the OP is the same demand made by the anti-carry (anti-gun) people. And their predictable solution is that NO ONE would be allowed to own, let alone carry a firearm. In their judgment, that is the perfect solution. Humans are fallible. We all make mistakes, but most gun people I know, take great care to avoid potentially disastrous mistakes. And I trust them to do so,
     
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  16. JohnKSa

    JohnKSa Moderator Staff Member

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    Well, for one thing, the title of this thread is a statement, not a "demand". For another, if there's any question about what the title means, the opening post should put it to rest. If it were intended to be anti-gun, it would be about banning or restricting firearms, or restricting ownership.

    But there's nothing at all like that in there. It doesn't tell people not to own guns or not to carry them, in fact it assumes that people will be carrying guns. It's clearly all about how to carry safely and responsibly.
    Well, it's clearly not my solution. Just reading a couple of sentences into of the post makes that clear.
    Most gun people I know do too--but clearly not all of them do or we wouldn't be having this discussion. For those who don't, or for those who are just starting out, this thread provides some good ways to do what all responsible gun owners want to do--be safe.
     
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  17. bdickens

    bdickens Member

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    AMEN!

    All the mechanical safety devices in the world won't help some dumb*** who is determined to do stupid stuff.

    Safety is a habit, not a mechanical device.
     
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  18. JR24

    JR24 Member

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    While a valid, and sad for the officers hand, story. Wouldn't the same thing be a problem if he broke his trigger finger. Could he have drawn from a modern level 3 holster in the first place? Isn't that why we train to use our off hand?
     
  19. GEM

    GEM Moderator Staff Member

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    Yeah but so what. He was pointed out one problem. That other problems exist doesn't invalidate his point of view and what happened to him.
     
  20. JR24

    JR24 Member

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    Uh huh, and I said it was valid, are we not allowed to add further discussion?
     
  21. GEM

    GEM Moderator Staff Member

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    Who said that? I didn't.
     
  22. Drail

    Drail Member

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    "Forgetting" to release a safety on a gun is just like "forgetting" to unzip your pants when you take a leak. That's a training/IQ issue. The people that I can't understand are the ones who have never worn a belt and refuse to buy one and get on a gun forum and seriously ask "How do I carry a pistol wearing only sweatpants?" and people have to explain to them that their sweatpants will NOT hold a gun up. And these people are allowed to drive and vote.
     
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2020
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  23. bearcreek

    bearcreek Member

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    Sure. Perhaps his thinking was that you can't eliminate all potential problems with a machine (like a pistol) and so he decided to control what he could control. You can't get a pistol that doesn't have a trigger but you can, very easily, get a pistol that doesn't have a thumb safety.
     
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  24. RetiredUSNChief

    RetiredUSNChief Member

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    A few days late in this, so pardon me if I'm repeating things (I've only skimmed the postings past the first page).

    I think many people who buy a firearm, most especially first time buyers, don't give much thought to what else is required and the expenses involved. It's a steep learning curve that I'm sure many, if not most, of those here have experienced personally.

    A good holster and belt are essential...and an expense in their own right. You've just spent several hundred you saved up on a firearm...and now you need to spend another hundred or two? That's a harsh reality for some.

    There's also the fact that, though firearms in general aren't complicated to understand, some people never take it to heart that you REALLY need to take the time to understand that there's more to them than putting bullets in and pulling the trigger. It doesn't help when people in marketing and industry don't refer to things properly...like the fact that the Glock "trigger safety" is NOT, in fact, a "safety" at all. It's a drop safe design, intended to prevent the firearm from discharging if unintentionally dropped. Anything which gets into the trigger guard, whether a finger or otherwise, may actuate the trigger mechanism and there's nothing to stop that from happening outside of a proper holster.

    People are unduly influenced by non-technically correct inputs all the time. Social media, entertainment, news, marketing, their buddies, etc. They quite often give more credence to non-factual, incorrect sources than they should.

    And, of course, some people just don't care.

    Still no excuse, mind you, merely a recognition of human nature in these things. Because this is what we're up against.

    You can provide owners manuals. You can provide maintenance manuals. You can provide classroom and range training. You can even explicitly demonstrate one-on-one the do's and don't's and you will STILL have some element which will mess things like this up.

    The best way to improve the odds of things like this from not happening is for society as a whole to accept the reality of personally owned firearms to facilitate a paradigm shift as a whole about ownership and responsibility and for people to integrate this into their lives. But we don't (and likely won't ever, judging by the schisms we see today), and because of this it won't be a "universal understanding". There will always be people who object to firearms ownership and carrying, which places roadblocks in widespread acceptance and training on the matter.

    So, carry on smartly, educating those around you, and correcting as best you can.
     
  25. Steve S.

    Steve S. Member

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    If one understands the shear number of firearms in the hands of millions of people with the entire spectrum of firearms handling ability and experience, then you understand that accidental discharge will absolutely continue to occur because the mathematics says that it will - this is like saying that there is no reason for any auto accident to happen anywhere in this country at any time - someone is kidding themselves with all of these handling/ CCW instructions.
     
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