"There's no such thing as combat shooting"

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have been taught what to do in combat. In actual practice they may or may not react as trained.
Which is why good training is repetitive so that people don’t have to think about what to do.

The US Army had no large scale combat between 1972 when Vietnamization was nearly completed and 1989 when we invaded Panama. Most of the men who had seen combat in Vietnam were either out of the Army or had been promoted into positions where they weren’t in direct combat roles. For the most part those unblooded troops were also trained by NCOs who had not seen combat either. A little more than a year later a military that was mostly composed of men and women who had never seen combat rolled over the 5th largest military in the world in a matter of hours.

How was that possible? Hard, realistic training is how. Afterwords commanders commented that their rotations at the 3 combat training centers were harder and more stressful than combat.

With few exceptions, the soldiers reacted the way they were trained to react when faced with the ultimate test. The old saying that when faced with danger people don’t rise to the occasion, they default to their training is true.
 
Speed doesn't mean squat if you can't hit what your aiming at.
Accuracy over Speed everyday
Not true, especially when there are so many cases where the mere display of a firearm stopped the threat, or where the good guy missed and the bad guy ran away.

Accuracy is absolutely important but so is speed and one needs to train them both together. If the bad guy gets you first it doesn't matter at all how fast you would have been.
 
Which most people will never really accomplish because they use stupid big targets and only try to go fast
I don't know where you trained but it's certainly not true of "most people" I know. I start my students out on a 3x5 note card. Even the Army starts with the ability to shoot a 4 cm group at 25 meters.
 
I don't know where you trained but it's certainly not true of "most people" I know. I start my students out on a 3x5 note card. Even the Army starts with the ability to shoot a 4 cm group at 25 meters.

I use 3x5 index cards as well. Between 3, 6, 9, 12, 15, 18 & 21y
10 shots, miss and start over
Haven't shot in a while due to health issues. I'd probably start with a 5x8 card.

Most places I've seen locally use the B-27 targets. Even the State CCW classes use them. Yawn
 
Regarding the stress from a timer beep. It will never even come within the same universe as the pucker factor of having bullets passing in close proximity to ones body. So I'm in the camp that says I'd rather be trained by someone who has done as opposed to someone who has only taught.
 
Regarding the stress from a timer beep. It will never even come within the same universe as the pucker factor of having bullets passing in close proximity to ones body. So I'm in the camp that says I'd rather be trained by someone who has done as opposed to someone who has only taught.
Please explain why you believe that someone has to have been shot at in order to teach the mechanics of shooting. Does one have to have combat experience to teach sight alignment? How about trigger control? More advanced techniques like shooting while moving? How about drawing from concealment? How are these things done differently by someone who has been shot at?

Like I said in an earlier post, prior to the GWOT the majority of soldiers and Marines in combat arms MOSs had no combat experience. The lessons of previous generations were passed down and taught.

The police in this country have a very good record of winning gunfights but very few of them were trained by someone who had been in a gunfight.

What specifically do you think you will get from an instructor with combat experience that you won’t get from a good instructor without it?

I spent my working life as an Infantryman and in law enforcement. I took a lot of private training at my own expense with tier one instructors. The only difference I found between good instructors who had “seen the elephant” and those that hadn’t was better “war stories” during breaks.

In my experience a good instructor is a good instructor regardless of their experience in a gunfight.

The instructor community studies fights they haven’t been in to learn what can be learned from so they can pass it on. There are formal programs for that in the military. The Army has a Center for Army Lessons Learned that analyzes fights and publishes what they learn Army wide. There are classified and unclassified bulletins. The service schools have professional journals where branch specific information is shared.

Law Enforcement is the same. Even small departments (most departments in the U.S. are under 10 sworn officers) benefit from the work of the National Tactical Officers Association, Calibre Press, Public Agency Training Council, and large agencies maintain their own training units. All of this information is shared throughout the community. There are private trainers who use their contacts in the community to gain firsthand knowledge of shootings so they can pass it on to their students.

So tell me what makes someone who has been shot at a better trainer? You do realize that not all combat experience is the same. There are a lot of legitimate combat veterans who don’t have the same combat experience as the SOF operator who spent his tour kicking doors. So should you differentiate between different experiences? Maybe you should only seek out training from former tier one operators? There are some out there in the training community but there aren’t enough of them to fulfill the needs of the community.

So what are you going to learn from a good combat experienced instructor that you can’t learn from a good instructor who has never been in a gunfight?
 
I'd add to this that knowing a skill and teaching a skill are two different things. Not everyone that wins/survives a gunfight has the skills to distill the experience and present it as useful lessons. Everyone that ever attended a school of any kind can likely recall having some very good teachers and some pretty bad ones.
 
There are people at the very highest levels of the American military who are being taught in all sorts of combatives and CQB by people who have never actually fought oversees. Good information is good information.

Too many people today get caught up with the fact that their favorite instructor was a Green Beret/Seal/Ranger etc and don't consider the fact that very little of what they did overseas has any relevance to civilian self defense. Some of those guys did get relevant training but most did not. They're exceptional at their mission set but that mission involves lots of well trained buddies with rifles and machine guns and far more relaxed ROEs.
 
Regarding the stress from a timer beep. It will never even come within the same universe as the pucker factor of having bullets passing in close proximity to ones body. So I'm in the camp that says I'd rather be trained by someone who has done as opposed to someone who has only taught.
We hear this from time to time. It does not appear to be based on any depth of thought or on any kind of logic.

Just what knowledge can a person who has experienced the adrenalin dump of a violent encounter impart to his students? Will he describe how he felt at the time? Of what teaching value might that be?

Is it not likely that the effects of the experience will have varied widely, depending upon the circumstances and upon the individual make-up of the trainer? Will not other things be much more important to the students?

Will the experience be relevant to civilian defensive shooting? Military experience will not, and if the trainer's experience involved shooting after the pursuit of a criminal suspect or during the clearing of a building, that will have little relevance.

interesting thought, perhaps, but unrealistic.
 
There are elderly grandmas out there who have successfully stopped a threat in their home that had never fired a gun before that instance. They proved theey were willing to pull the trigger. They've been there. But I don't think that qualifies them to teach self defense shooting.

Preferably it would be good to have an instructor who has had that experience but it's not a requirement.
 
So I'm in the camp that says I'd rather be trained by someone who has done as opposed to someone who has only taught.
Probably had I not spent 43+ years on active duty with some combat deployments and in law enforcement, I might think like that. But one eventually comes to realize that learning how to shoot and move are physical and mechanical activities and skills, and whether or not one has been shot at has absolutely zero to do with whether or not one can effectively teach these skills.

I have a good buddy who was a nuclear reactor operator in the Navy for more than 20 years. He always said he didn't have any problem receiving his training from people who'd never had to deal with a reactor meltdown or a damaged reactor core with release of radioactive isotopes...

Couple months back in this thread I said back in post #21
I strongly disagree. Having been in combat might give one a better perspective as far as tactics, and what it's like to have to return aimed fire with bullet (or grenades, rockets or mortar rounds) coming your way. And you cannot possibly impart this experience in a training class to anyone who's never had that experience.

But as far as teaching fundamentals, marksmanship and technique, one needs not to have been in combat to be a great instructor and turn out competent, well-schooled shooters.

My department's absolute worst firearms instructor had been in many firefights in Iraq and Afghanistan, but he was easily frustrated, egotistical, overbearing and impatient. Our best instructor was a sergeant with no military or LE combat or gunfight experience. I fell in-between but considered myself a pretty good instructor.
Don't think I'm gonna change my mind on any of this (in this lifetime).
 
I spent 15 years in the Army and National Guard with no combat experience. The Army did teach me stress inoculation training. They made me go days with out sleep.

This is off topic but when I was on active duty the Army did something called an ARTEP. basically they made us do continuous "combat operations" for 96 hours straight with no rest and no sleep. I don't think it's a coincidence that 96 hours was the training standard and the ground war in Desert Storm was just 10 hours longer.

I worked as a security guard for 15 years (seems to be a pattern) without ever actually having to use my gun.

The most important thing I learned from that experience was how to read people's behavior. I became very familiar with Preassault Indicators and I became very adept at telling when someone was feeding me a line of BullScheiße or when someone was getting ready to jump me.

I did all that without having to actually shoot anybody or actually being in a gunfight, I witnessed a few but I never actually had to participate.

I was also lucky enough to get some professional (from people with and without combat experience) training to give a frame of reference to my experience.

The point I'm trying to make is I don't necessarily think a good trainer needs to have combat (using the term loosely) experience to be effective.
 
rather be trained by someone who has done as opposed to someone who has only taught.
There are former professional athletes in the halls of fame for their particular sport. There are also coaches in those same halls. Not often are there inductees for both playing and coaching, in any sport. If the guy who's "been there, done that" can't teach in an effective way, his experience must be related through someone who can. Otherwise that experience is a useless one-off.
 
Well I suppose a well trained individual can pass on their training. But my preference is to learn from those with training and experience.

The nice thing is folks can often select those from whom they can learn. I will take experience over book learning every time.
 
But my preference is to learn from those with training and experience.
Consider three things:
  • There are very, very few people who have been involved in civilian defensive use of force incidents. LEO and military experience are not relevant.
  • Those who have have had very little experience--maybe one incident--and will not have learned much at all from that.
  • Those who have used deadly force to take lives have been advised to say nothing about it to anyone other than their attorneys--and there is no statute of limitations.
I will take experience over book learning every time.
Do you really believe that the leading trainers rely on "book learning"?

The idea that there are trainers who have gained relevant knowledge from experience in use of deadly force incidents and who can impart it to others is a pipe dream.
 
One thing is that instructors beside 'being there' have knowledge of how to teach and appropriate educational techniques for adults and specific educational techniques for the domain - like firearms usage. Being there and telling a war story is not the same as knowing how to present knowledge effectively or how to conduct practice. Is being there useful - sure - is it sufficient - no.

There are quite a few books on the subject - for example:
No Safe Alternative: Improving How We Teach Cops to Kill
Kindle Edition
T.C. Fuller

If I see an instructor and their resume is just military, how they have designed their own 'system' from their military experience, etc. - I would precede with caution. Do you see any courses or training with gold standards like Tom Givens' instructor program or similar one from Karl Rehn and others. I've seen courses where the instructor says - just shoot faster.

Here's a piece on exercise and the differences between exercise stress and critical incident stress - https://gunmagwarehouse.com/blog/stress-inoculation-breathing-and-heart-rate-matters/

Greg Ellifritz said on that piece:
While conducting training after physical exertion is valuable practice it will absolutely NOT inoculate you to the stress of a gunfight. The physical changes your body experiences under high adrenaline are very different to the changes experienced by intense exercise.
 
Those who have have had very little experience--maybe one incident--and will not have learned much at all from that.
I'm not 100% sure I'd want to be associated in any way with someone who's had enough civilian use of force experience to become an expert on the matter. If such a person did exist.
 
Tom Givens and Mas Ayoob have a great deal of experience with civilians who have been in such incidents. Or do you mean some who has been personally in a great number of critical incidents?
 
LEO ....experience  is not relevant.

Edited for clarity
I might not say this right but 90% of Police experience has nothing to do shooting people.

It has to do with paying attention to your surroundings.

It has to do with reading the people that you're interacting with and recognizing when somebody's bullsh***ng you.

It has to do with recognizing pre-assultive indicators.

It has to do with understanding that while any place can be dangerous there are certain places that are consistently dangerous and that you need to be on your game in those locations.

I was never even a cop and I know that.

One of the first things that I learned by experience as a security guard was that people's motivations are very similar. Because of that their behavior patterns are very similar and predictable.

That experience is very relevant
 
Accuracy builds Speed.

Which most people will never really accomplish because they use stupid big targets and only try to go fast

Mmmmm...no, not really.

FORM builds speed, not accuracy. Accuracy is an important part of form, but that's all it is...a part.

You can be accurate all day long, but if your form is not correct, or suitable, then when the need arises to perform at speed, you will not have the desired end results.


I have a good buddy who was a nuclear reactor operator in the Navy for more than 20 years. He always said he didn't have any problem receiving his training from people who'd never had to deal with a reactor meltdown or a damaged reactor core with release of radioactive isotopes...

As someone who spent a 20 year Navy career in exactly this job, he is absolutely correct.

But the training must be as realistic as possible to get the most out of it. In the nuclear propulsion program, that training is complex, in depth, multi-faceted, and based on a bedrock of sound fundamental knowledge of both how and why things work the way they do.

Knowing what to do to operate the propulsion plant isn't even the half of it. You have to know all the "why's" behind everything as well.

Knowing the "why" behind everything not only helps people to remember the correct actions to take, it is also critical to enabling the operators to take the correct actions under stress and when the unexpected or unusual happens.

Drills are the part of the training program that puts all the theoretical training and operating experience together and they are conducted to be as realistic as possible and to build from the basic building blocks to what we called "graduate level" drills.

A basic, fundamental drill, for example, could be a reactor scram with a following fast recovery start up. Could be the loss of a turbine generator under conditions which will not produce a reactor protective action or otherwise seriously affect propulsion. Loss of cooling water to something. These are the types of drills which are used to develop the "form" required of operators to correctly identify these types of casualties and to take the correct, effective casualty procedures and recovery actions.

From there, the drills become more complex, moving towards "graduate level" casualties. Finally, they have worked up to something like a fire in a switchboard which results in loss of half the electric plant, a reactor protective action caused by a loss of coolant flow, smoke filled spaces requiring people to don breathing protection while still combatting the casualty, loss of feed water to the steam generators, electrical grounds caused by the fire fighting efforts, shifting propulsion to the EPM, getting the ship up to periscope depth and clearing baffles during all this, preparing to snorkel and emergency ventilate the spaces, etc.

Oh, and have I mentioned this is all taking place in an area where discovery of the ship's presence could mean the loss of the ship?

Everything is going to H*ll in a handbasket...and yet the Reactor Operator KNOWS what he has to do for his part if the reactor scrams. He KNOWS what he has to keep track of for the eventual fast recovery startup that will follow. The Electrical Operator KNOWS what he has to do as soon as he hears the report "FIRE IN STARBOARD NON-VITAL BUSES". He KNOWS what he has to do to restore maximum electrical power and he KNOWS what he has to do for snorkeling.

And if, in the middle of all this, something unexpected happens (gee, Chief, you mean all this was EXPECTED?) in addition to all this, the operator's understanding of how and why things are done will enable him to figure out what needs to be done and how to go about doing it. Like the failure of a reactor coolant pump to shift properly, for example. This is, in fact, the ultimate goal of "graduate level" drills...to effectively coordinate and take the correct effective actions to combat casualties under a variety of circumstances, all while still fighting the ship.


All this to explain why you don't REQUIRE people with actual combat experience to conduct combat training. Combat training isn't just based on "book learning" any more than operating a naval nuclear propulsion plant. Book learning is only a part of it, and that in itself doesn't mean what's in the book is some form of idealized theory. Mankind is a historically warring species and we've been at it throughout our entire history. That "book knowledge" of combat and warfare was developed, and continues to evolve over time, by ACTUAL combat and warfare.

That knowledge, whether from books, training exercises, combat drills, and instructors (both with and without combat experience) has to be ACTED UPON in training exercises and drills. Exercises and drills specifically designed to develop the skills required to successfully execute combat missions. Train like you fight, fight like you train.

Even if you HAVE combat experienced instructors, all those coming up through the pipeline under them most certainly do NOT have combat experience. And even if they did, no combat will be exactly like any other combat. Field Marshall Helmuth von Moltke once said "No plan survives contact with the enemy".

In fact, it's for exactly this reason that we don't conduct our war games "to win". We handicap the bejeebers out of them so that they're always operating at some kind of disadvantage during training so we can actually LEARN how to fight that way.
 
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