Aragon
member
Timing. Entrenchment in many organizations' arsenals.
They'd sell like hotcakes if they were only brought back!
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Timing. Entrenchment in many organizations' arsenals.
Aragon
member
Ultimately they weren't money makers.
If gun manufacturers were lean and flexible enough, they'd have a lot more models in current production because they would be able to turn a buck at a very low margin.
earplug
Member
The M96 with the holster/stock would be a nice option over various carbines.
Have to abolish the ATF first.
Have to abolish the ATF first.
barnbwt
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They market plenty well to their target buyers; governments (and guerillas, but keep that on the down-low)
H&K CEO on the latest terror/militant/revolutionary/cartel group being found in possession of G36's: <Barney Fife> "How does this keep happening?"
TCB
H&K CEO on the latest terror/militant/revolutionary/cartel group being found in possession of G36's: <Barney Fife> "How does this keep happening?"
TCB
Capybara
Member
I agree with those who say the models of guns listed by the OP are no longer made because there wasn't and probably still isn't enough of a market. I have owned pistol caliber carbines. Not very effective or powerful generally, they cost as much or more than a good "normal caliber" rifle, yet aren't as accurate or powerful. If pistol caliber carbines would really sell, why have almost all manufacturers discontinued them? They aren't profitable and don't sell.
Colt Snake Guns
Everyone in the gun world says that they would DEFINITELY buy a new one if Colt would fire back up the assembly lines. I call BS on this one. In order to manufacturer Snake revolvers at the same quality, fit and finish level as the originals, I've been told they would carry a $3k to $5k retail price tag, about the same neighborhood as you can buy a mint classic one for, if you hunt around. Only the rich and well heeled shooter would buy them, in tiny numbers. Sure, everyone would buy one at $500.00 but Colt would never sell them for that, they would cost considerably more to make. Pipe dream. If you want one, buy one and pay the tariff, there are tons of them at auctions and at collector sites.
I have an original run Ruger Red Label Sporting Clays. I love it, it has been a great gun, but it wasn't cheap (it was given to me as a gift). Ruger discontinued them a few years ago because they were expensive to make and they weren't selling like hotcakes. Then Ruger brought them back to the market two years ago, supposedly made with a cheaper manufacturing process that kept up the quality but lowered costs for them. They couldn't give them away. The Red Label deserves to be discontinued, even though it was a good shotgun. But it couldn't compete with the Berettas and the Miroku made Brownings at the same prices. Now they have discontinued them a a second time. It seems that most gun owners can only think about what THEY want and would buy, but aren't willing to spend the money in most cases, to obtain their niche gun in that weird configuration or caliber. Those guns and calibers aren't available because nobody wanted them in their day. If they did, the more obscure guns and calibers would still be around.
I have a great appreciation for a lot of the guns on the OPs list but from a business perspective, they were all losers.
Colt Snake Guns
Everyone in the gun world says that they would DEFINITELY buy a new one if Colt would fire back up the assembly lines. I call BS on this one. In order to manufacturer Snake revolvers at the same quality, fit and finish level as the originals, I've been told they would carry a $3k to $5k retail price tag, about the same neighborhood as you can buy a mint classic one for, if you hunt around. Only the rich and well heeled shooter would buy them, in tiny numbers. Sure, everyone would buy one at $500.00 but Colt would never sell them for that, they would cost considerably more to make. Pipe dream. If you want one, buy one and pay the tariff, there are tons of them at auctions and at collector sites.
I have an original run Ruger Red Label Sporting Clays. I love it, it has been a great gun, but it wasn't cheap (it was given to me as a gift). Ruger discontinued them a few years ago because they were expensive to make and they weren't selling like hotcakes. Then Ruger brought them back to the market two years ago, supposedly made with a cheaper manufacturing process that kept up the quality but lowered costs for them. They couldn't give them away. The Red Label deserves to be discontinued, even though it was a good shotgun. But it couldn't compete with the Berettas and the Miroku made Brownings at the same prices. Now they have discontinued them a a second time. It seems that most gun owners can only think about what THEY want and would buy, but aren't willing to spend the money in most cases, to obtain their niche gun in that weird configuration or caliber. Those guns and calibers aren't available because nobody wanted them in their day. If they did, the more obscure guns and calibers would still be around.
I have a great appreciation for a lot of the guns on the OPs list but from a business perspective, they were all losers.
Nickel Plated
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Pistol caliber carbines (PCCs) don't sell well because they don't really fill any unique purpose. PCCs pretty much evolved from submachineguns. Subguns do fill a usefull role. They give you a high rate of fire in a compact, and controllable package, that's simple (aka cheap) and extremely reliable in their usual open bolt configuration.
Infact if it weren't for the NFA hassles and the "evil" reputation of full auto a slow (500-600rpm) subgun in an MP5K or UZI-like package would be an excellent home defense weapon with some practice and trigger control.
But once the NFA gets involved and subguns have to become semi-only, closed-bolt, 16inch barreled "rifles", then they pretty much lose all of their advantages and do absolutely nothing that a proper semi-auto rifle like an AR15 or AK can't do better in practically every way.
So make those pistol caliber carbines short and select fire like they were intended to be and you got a seller. Otherwise they're just underpowered, oversized wannabe rifles.
Infact if it weren't for the NFA hassles and the "evil" reputation of full auto a slow (500-600rpm) subgun in an MP5K or UZI-like package would be an excellent home defense weapon with some practice and trigger control.
But once the NFA gets involved and subguns have to become semi-only, closed-bolt, 16inch barreled "rifles", then they pretty much lose all of their advantages and do absolutely nothing that a proper semi-auto rifle like an AR15 or AK can't do better in practically every way.
So make those pistol caliber carbines short and select fire like they were intended to be and you got a seller. Otherwise they're just underpowered, oversized wannabe rifles.
cluttonfred
Member
Larry Correia effectively turned me off of H&K forever. I can't even look at one without thinking of this.... ;-)
http://monsterhunternation.com/2007/10/09/hk-because-you-suck-and-we-hate-you/
Especially on the roller-locked rifle/carbine/SMG side of the shop, H&K does seem to be waaaaay overblown in terms of actal superiority over competing designs, keeping in mind that they are stamped sheet-metal guns based on basic design that goes back to the end of WWII. The whole mythos is reinforced by the fact they were/are popular with the professsional and amateur tactical crowd, which then becomes something of a self-fulfilling prophesy, "If I use it, it must be great."
http://monsterhunternation.com/2007/10/09/hk-because-you-suck-and-we-hate-you/
Especially on the roller-locked rifle/carbine/SMG side of the shop, H&K does seem to be waaaaay overblown in terms of actal superiority over competing designs, keeping in mind that they are stamped sheet-metal guns based on basic design that goes back to the end of WWII. The whole mythos is reinforced by the fact they were/are popular with the professsional and amateur tactical crowd, which then becomes something of a self-fulfilling prophesy, "If I use it, it must be great."
vaupet
Member
Cannot agree with OP,
almost all theze guns are from an era where there was no such thing as CNC machinery and labour was cheap. They were designed to be produced that way.
Today we do have CNC and labour is very expensive, so these designs are in no way cost-effectively produced and are much more expensive then modern rifles with bether performance.
They are not interesting for people who buy guns to use them, only for collectors. They are never going to be mass-produced.
As for pistol caliber carbines: 9mm and 45 are replaced by 223 and PDF are becoming mp7 or p90, because the bad guys nowadays have body armour.
So OP, not going to happen.
Nice example: look what production figures lever action rifles get. They are handbuild in batches of 250 pc.
almost all theze guns are from an era where there was no such thing as CNC machinery and labour was cheap. They were designed to be produced that way.
Today we do have CNC and labour is very expensive, so these designs are in no way cost-effectively produced and are much more expensive then modern rifles with bether performance.
They are not interesting for people who buy guns to use them, only for collectors. They are never going to be mass-produced.
As for pistol caliber carbines: 9mm and 45 are replaced by 223 and PDF are becoming mp7 or p90, because the bad guys nowadays have body armour.
So OP, not going to happen.
Nice example: look what production figures lever action rifles get. They are handbuild in batches of 250 pc.
Capybara
Member
"So make those pistol caliber carbines short and select fire like they were intended to be and you got a seller. Otherwise they're just underpowered, oversized wannabe rifles."
You nailed it, this is exactly why I sold my Vector Uzi. I would rent the FA Uzi at the Scottsdale Gun Club and it was a blast to shoot. Then, going home to California, I had to have a clunky, 16" barrel semi auto with no folding stock, I had to either have a bullet button or to make it featureless, the gun became something else, not fun to shoot, heavy and awkward. Even though I had wanted an Uzi since I was a kid, I sold it after shooting once.
PCCs are not really very good. Lever actions, OTOH, I love. I bought a 1952 Winchester '94 in .30-30 and it is one of my favorites to shoot. Small, light and relatively powerful. Great for 100 yards and under although I can hit targets out to 200. But I would never suggest that lever guns will have mass market appeal, they are kind of retro, kind of a throwback. Fun as heck but the average shooter won't buy one.
You nailed it, this is exactly why I sold my Vector Uzi. I would rent the FA Uzi at the Scottsdale Gun Club and it was a blast to shoot. Then, going home to California, I had to have a clunky, 16" barrel semi auto with no folding stock, I had to either have a bullet button or to make it featureless, the gun became something else, not fun to shoot, heavy and awkward. Even though I had wanted an Uzi since I was a kid, I sold it after shooting once.
PCCs are not really very good. Lever actions, OTOH, I love. I bought a 1952 Winchester '94 in .30-30 and it is one of my favorites to shoot. Small, light and relatively powerful. Great for 100 yards and under although I can hit targets out to 200. But I would never suggest that lever guns will have mass market appeal, they are kind of retro, kind of a throwback. Fun as heck but the average shooter won't buy one.
Surculus
Member
Patents expire after 17 years. By my definition, anything newer than that is not an "old" gun...
Surculus
Member
Yeah, Larry is brill, isn't he? Love, love, LOVE his Grimnoir series: such fun! The Monsterhunter books are similarly enjoyable, and of course, open-ended [kinda p.o.'d that the Grimnoir line is done, actually.] Nice to have a real "gun guy" writing SF. Now if SyFy channel would just license his stuff & put it on the screen instead of producing tripe like "Sharknado..."
Deog
Member
Cx4 storm california compliant
Aragon
member
Modern manufacturing techniques could definitely be applied to ALL of the listed guns. To suggest (as many do) their product quality levels would necessarily drop if they were is simply nonsense. They would be a bit different but every bit as high in quality.
Similarly if there were fewer import restrictions, less bigotry/ignorance and actual demand, I'm sure the labor intensive firearms (they're not all labor intensive by the way) could be built at a very competitive cost with excellent product quality.
[Unfortunately the same type of person (customer) that once proclaimed that Japan (and later Taiwan) could only build "crap" now struggles to continue incorrectly applying that label to China, Brazil, etc.]
I'm not sure what that means? Most on that list were indeed "mass produced."
Has more to do with the performance and low pricing (of the ammo too) of AR/AK based carbines. Sales of the AR/AK platforms have impacted the sales of MANY different sorts of firearms.
I didn't suggest they would. Quite the opposite if you understood the first posting.
Tell that to Henry Repeating Arms. They practice continuous flow manufacturing.
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Buck13
Member
This gives me an idea for this thread, except that it wouldn't be "brought back" as I don't think it ever existed: a .357 Maximum pump rifle, which would be perfect for the hunting rules you mention. Give it a handy 18" barrel and it should carry 5 or 6 rounds with 180 grain bullets going about 2200 fps.
Knowing nothing about manufacturing, I feel confident in saying that Mossberg could easily produce one by mating their smallest pump shotgun receiver with a barrel made on their rifle tooling.
In addition to being a niche product, it would be doomed by the lack of factory ammo. But everyone on the interwebs will say they want one!
As someone who has been in sales and marketing for 40+ years and manufacturing and agriculture for over 20 years just let me say that "If you build it they will come" is NOT the way it works.
If there is sufficient demand for a product then someone will figure out a way to make it. Maybe there is a call for 6 ply toilet paper but, unless P&G decides there is enough demand they are not going to make it. Just because 5k people want a product doesn't mean it will make sense to gear up to build it, especially with all the plastic guns we have on the market today.
I love my Ruger carbine in 44.
I love my Colt Trooper and my Detective Special.
I sort of doubt they will ever be made again. They were discontinued for a reason and the reason is NOT that the companies were making too much money on them.
If there is sufficient demand for a product then someone will figure out a way to make it. Maybe there is a call for 6 ply toilet paper but, unless P&G decides there is enough demand they are not going to make it. Just because 5k people want a product doesn't mean it will make sense to gear up to build it, especially with all the plastic guns we have on the market today.
I love my Ruger carbine in 44.
I love my Colt Trooper and my Detective Special.
I sort of doubt they will ever be made again. They were discontinued for a reason and the reason is NOT that the companies were making too much money on them.
witchhunter
Member
I sure would like a brand new 1968 Camaro Z28!
barnbwt
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"I sure would like a brand new 1968 Camaro Z28!"
Can't speak to a Camaro, but I've seen a 1970 Challenger R/T up close, and compared to my 2011...no. Hell no. That thing was so much cruder and cheaper in every conceivable way compared to how we build things now it was incredible. Absent the rarity/nostalgia of being "old," the old ways are almost never an improvement. And never, when it comes to engineering.
TCB
Can't speak to a Camaro, but I've seen a 1970 Challenger R/T up close, and compared to my 2011...no. Hell no. That thing was so much cruder and cheaper in every conceivable way compared to how we build things now it was incredible. Absent the rarity/nostalgia of being "old," the old ways are almost never an improvement.
And never, when it comes to engineering.TCB
Aragon
member
I think that's true. Remember when Ruger was asking for ideas on their next new product? I saw these very examples being talked about all over the web. "If only they would bring them back!" Suuuuure...
steelerdude99
Member
As someone "broke the ice" with a non-gun example, here is another. Ford discontinuing the Ranger in the US' small truck market. Not internationally, just in the US as they wanted US buyers to get F150's. They were selling here in the US just fine. All it did was push small truck buyers to other manufacturers.
chuck
Aragon
member
That's not accurate. The Ranger that was designed and is now being built for the international market is just about the same size as the F150. Because the new Ranger is nearly the same size as the F150, Ford decided to forgo the overlap and not sell it in the US.
I just bought a 1978 Datsun 280Z for my daughter. T-tops, 8 track and all original including the paint job. I paid about half of what the MSRP was in 1978.
Thousands of gun designs and auto designs and washing machine designs have been discontinued over the years because they either didn't sell well or were replaced by a newer version. Just look at all the cars. Mustang, Firebird, Camaro that were changed so much over the years and eventually discontinued and, sometimes, re-invented completely.
Thousands of gun designs and auto designs and washing machine designs have been discontinued over the years because they either didn't sell well or were replaced by a newer version. Just look at all the cars. Mustang, Firebird, Camaro that were changed so much over the years and eventually discontinued and, sometimes, re-invented completely.
You're absolutely right, IF snake guns were brought back, they aren't going to compete with Ruger on price. Colt isn't stupid, they know most of the people on the Internet are full of crap. They know if they brought them back, maybe 1% of the "I'd buy one in a minute" crowd would actually step up. There are plenty of snake guns out there and those that really want one can get one.
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