This explains a lot about the 22lr issues

[mboylan]

http://www.jgsales.com/ammo-for-rimfire-c-48.html

That is all higher end Eley at close to pre-panic prices. It's not something you would run through a Marlin M60. The lube could cause malfunctions. It's great stuff for shooting under quarter inch groups at 50 yards through a benchrest or target rifle.

 

[RetiredUSNChief]

And that's what irritates me about this. Obviously people buying ammo to shoot is fine. I don't even have a problem with people buying ammo just to stock up. My problem is with the people buying every box of 22lr they can and they probably don't even own a 22! If they did, why would they ever sell it?? At any price? Can you imagine if this were happening with cigarettes instead of 22 ammo?

And how are any of us to know what's in the hearts and minds of every person buying ammo at Walmart (or any other place)? How are we to know whether or not any given person actually owns a .22 rifle/handgun? How are we to know whether or not anyone who doesn't actually own a .22 gun isn't buying for a friend/grandchild/child?

Or, for that matter, how are we to know whether or not any given person isn't simply buying as part of a capitalist venture...you know, that thing so many of us espouse as being "American as apple pie"?

And even if one (or a few) people actually ponied up to not owning a .22 gun, how is that to be made representative of the vast majority of people out there buying .22 ammo?

 

[Mike1234567]

Capitalism is one thing. But I liken this to buying futures in beans and rice which drives those prices up for no good reason other than profit. It doesn't hurt most of us much but it sure starves poor families.

I'm all for stocking up when there's plenty. That's a smart thing to do. I do it. I also like making money and buying/selling can be a good part of that. But I'll not play this greedy game of taking advantage during a shortage of an "important" commodity to line my pockets. No sir... I won't do it. There's integrity and there's capitalistic venture... and they need not be mutually exclusive.

 

[scythefwd]

Or, for that matter, how are we to know whether or not any given person isn't simply buying as part of a capitalist venture...you know, that thing so many of us espouse as being "American as apple pie"?


actually its market manipulation by artificially limiting supply on a local level in order to increase the deficit in regards to demand for the sole purpose of making a profit on it. Its no different than a store saying one left and marking an item up when they have a stock room full of them in the back, but they're only putting one out at a time.

I say let them.. people paying that much are propping up the market, which encourages this behavior. Obviously the guys buying for their own use aren't the problem.. its the guys buying just to sell at massive profits that are part of the problem (and the people enabling them by paying ridiculous profits). Dry up the demand.. and the market will correct itself. When these guys cant buy up walmart and make huge profits when they re-sell it.. they'll stop doing it (and be stocked up on 22 if they have one).

 

[Ignition Override]

How about the (Lonoke AR) Remington factory's supposed planned or actual expansion?
My specific question is whether they will use such a new facility to produce some of the lower-priced centerfire handgun ammo
(i.e. .32 acp/.380) or .22LR ammo. Does anybody have a good guess about what rounds they will manufacture?

I'm not a fan of the green/yellow boxes, or their "Thunderslug", but if more of it can keep the primary private flippers and allow their adult-aged kinfolk to stay in bed, instead of being dragged to Wally world at 0630, that could be a guud thang...

 

[RetiredUSNChief]

People have been doing this kind of stuff forever and a day...buying and reselling at a profit, even from retailers.

When Ty Beenie Babies were all the rage, people did it all the time...bought up all they could lay their hands on in order to turn them around and resell them at kiosks in the local mall for higher prices.

It happens all the time on a variety of market items. People are opportunistic about it. The cure is the same for all of them too...quit buying them up indiscriminately and eventually it'll fix itself.

 

[Mike1234567]

One can't compare Beanie Babies with ammunition. One is strictly a toy and the other is potentially food on the table and, perhaps, self and family protection.

 

[Agsalaska]

One can't compare Beanie Babies with ammunition. One is strictly a toy and the other is potentially food on the table and, perhaps, self and family protection.

This is incorrect when making an economic comparison. Beanie Babies and ammunition are both normal goods and will have similar reactions to market forces.

 

[Mike1234567]

This is incorrect when making an economic comparison. Beanie Babies and ammunition are both normal goods and will have similar reactions to market forces.

So... a commodity is just a commodity? That depends on how one's dealings affect other people. If a wealthy few of any isolated group buys up all the food of an entire growing season to hold it back, thereby starving the others' families until they can get anything they want for it, you can bet there'll be a rebellion. Ammunition scalpers are doing the same thing with an important commodity. I'm not talking about those who want plinking ammo. I'm talking about those who need the ammo to survive. One doesn't need Beanie Babies to survive. They are NOT the same thing.

Can people take advantage? Yes and, of course, they do. Should they take advantage? IMO, no. Make lots of profits with Beanie Babies and Barbie Dolls... but please curb greed with basic/minimum food, water, shelter and ammo when there are shortages of these.

 

[anothernewb]

I think the issue with commodities is getting confused with staples.

In addition - some items have a finite shelf life which renders some of the buyup difficult.

22 is compact, relatively inexpensive, and has an extremely long shelf life. which makes it a great target for this kind of market manipulation.

 

[HoosierQ]

Well if you are prepared to have ammuntion declared some sort of "special product", some sort of "strategic" commodity, some sort of good with special regulation attached to the buying and selling of it, you had better darn well be prepared for a wide variety of unintended consequences.

This kind of thing happened with a different product right before the first Gulf War. Then the war came along and the whole shortage collapsed. This particular shortage, 22lr will also collapse when some force in the market place causes it to do so.

The best thing for the RKBA and the 2nd Amendment is for ammunition (and its components) to be and remain just product. No different than beanie babies, pet rocks, Post Toasties, or those little rubber flip flops you wear in the shower.

 

[TJ AK-74]

Seriously Mike1234567...

Who in the world can "NEED" ammo for survival AND not be able to afford paying twice retail for it if they seriously need it? How many people can't afford $5.00 for a 50-round box of .22LRs? If you can't find an extra $2.50 in your budget to protect yourself, you have much bigger issues than being able to find cheap ammo. And don't try saying that they NEED more than 50 rds to protect themselves... If they really NEED ammo, they WILL be able to find it and pay for it.

 

[larryh1108]

I'm talking about those who need the ammo to survive.

Seriously, how many people, today, need ammo to survive (for food)?
This isn't the wild west or frontier people who did hunt to survive. I'm sure there are quite a few people who hunt for meat but I'd bet this is more to supplement their food rather than being their only source of food.

Also, how many critters can be hunted to feed families with the .22LR round? Sure, rabbits, possum and various other ground critters but if you try to tell me that being unable to find .22LR ammo for sale is causing them great harm due to starvation then I will cry BS. If someone is truly living off the land to survive then I'd bet he also makes his own ammo and that means he casts his own bullets and reloads his own ammo and that means centerfire ammo. Really, cut the dramatics down a bit. 99.9% of the ammo purchased and actually used is for pleasure, not survival.

 

[Mike1234567]

Seriously Mike1234567...

Who in the world can "NEED" ammo for survival AND not be able to afford paying twice retail for it if they seriously need it? How many people can't afford $5.00 for a 50-round box of .22LRs? If you can't find an extra $2.50 in your budget to protect yourself, you have much bigger issues than being able to find cheap ammo. And don't try saying that they NEED more than 50 rds to protect themselves... If they really NEED ammo, they WILL be able to find it and pay for it.

Point well-taken.

 

[RetiredUSNChief]

One can't compare Beanie Babies with ammunition. One is strictly a toy and the other is potentially food on the table and, perhaps, self and family protection.

I'm not making a comparison between the use/function of guns/ammunition and stuffed toy critters. I'm making a direct marketing comparison. Apples and oranges, my friend.

The market dynamics are virtually the same. Something in high demand, which makes them prized items to purchase. Demand makes them somewhat difficult to get, especially certain ones. Opportunists recognize this, head to the retailers and buy up all that they can get their hands on. This makes them more scarce, which in turn drives a market for certain "hard to get" items. In response, the "secondary retail market" price goes up and these people can turn around these items for higher prices.

Same economic dynamics.

 

[Mike1234567]

Chief... Yes, I agree with your last statement. My gripe is regarding those who take advantage of shortages of "important/necessary" commodities to make a buck. They should stick to making profits on unnecessary items like toys, candy bars, cameras... whatever, instead of making it harder for people to acquire things they really "need". Would any of us buy out all the food and water in a closed community so we can hold it back and force our starving neighbors to pay 3x normal price? I hope not!!

 

[Queen_of_Thunder]

Or, for that matter, how are we to know whether or not any given person isn't simply buying as part of a capitalist venture...you know, that thing so many of us espouse as being "American as apple pie"?


actually its market manipulation by artificially limiting supply on a local level in order to increase the deficit in regards to demand for the sole purpose of making a profit on it. Its no different than a store saying one left and marking an item up when they have a stock room full of them in the back, but they're only putting one out at a time.

I say let them.. people paying that much are propping up the market, which encourages this behavior. Obviously the guys buying for their own use aren't the problem.. its the guys buying just to sell at massive profits that are part of the problem (and the people enabling them by paying ridiculous profits). Dry up the demand.. and the market will correct itself. When these guys cant buy up walmart and make huge profits when they re-sell it.. they'll stop doing it (and be stocked up on 22 if they have one).

Your argument is lacking a key component and thats ammo. The availability of ammo wasn't there. It wasn't early on and it's still not making it to retail chains like Walmart and Academy in the regular amount received in 2012. Instead what ammunition was available is to this day still being being rationed to individual stores with limits placed on there sale. Granted limits for the most part have been lifted except for 22lr but we are nowhere near where we were in 2012.

Another failure is to exclude the importance of the secondary market to serve those who do not have a large retail chain or gun shop close by to purchase ammo from during shortages like the one we are experiencing. It is through the secondary market that ensures the most efficient method to distribute a product in short supply.

 

[Lost Sheep]

If you want to treat 22 rimfire, Furbys, cigarettes or bitcoin as a commodity on which to turn a profit, there are lessons to avoid learning a second time.

Google the Hunt Brothers, Silver Market, Thursday, 27 March 1980

Or just think back to your days of childhood games like "Hot Potato".

Also, does the phrase "Bigger sucker" bring anything to mind?

Lost Sheep

 

[Agsalaska]

Chief... Yes, I agree with your last statement. My gripe is regarding those who take advantage of shortages of "important/necessary" commodities to make a buck. They should stick to making profits on unnecessary items like toys, candy bars, cameras... whatever, instead of making it harder for people to acquire things they really "need". Would any of us buy out all the food and water in a closed community so we can hold it back and force our starving neighbors to pay 3x normal price? I hope not!!

OK. defining Ammo as 'important/necessary' ie essential is relative. My mom would say the same thing about hair spray.

Ammunition is not an essential good like food or water. That is why it does not act like one in the market. It acts like a normal good because it is a normal good.

 

[oneounceload]

Can people take advantage? Yes and, of course, they do. Should they take advantage? IMO, no. Make lots of profits with Beanie Babies and Barbie Dolls... but please curb greed with basic/minimum food, water, shelter and ammo when there are shortages of these.

Sorry Mike, called free enterprise and you are free to participate or not. There is NO such thing as gouging/scalping/ripping folks off. You either are willing to pay the seller's ASKING price (that is what it truly is called), or you are not. If enough folks do not buy, then the price comes down as the seller needs to move inventory. It is the same at the gas pump, grocery store, ammo guy, or with any other basic goods.

 

[Queen_of_Thunder]

I doubt that there are many who truly need ammo and those that do my guess is they are in good shape so that leaves the rest of us for whom the use of ammo is for a hobby. Therefore there is no need just want. Personally I want more ammo as I do not want to be in the position I've been in all this year. I learned my lesson.

Granted I've complained about prices but haven't blamed individual shooters for this shortage. I could have like so many others but it became quite apparent very early that ammo wasn't showing up but was being diverted away from the normal distribution channels for certain business entity's to profit from. Individuals cannot impact the market when the ammo being delivered was never more than a single case during a weeks time. When your big retail chains like Academy and Walmart are only getting minute amounts for their stores you know there is a problem and it is not at the bottom of the distribution chain where the individual and the LGS are. Its at the manufacture and distributor level.

 

[nathan]

This will not end until Obamao leaves office. So try to be patient because we can t do nothing. NOt if ammo importers will import them from European sources to offset shortage here.

 

[nathan]

If you are able to buy a box of 500 rd brick , then consider yourself very lucky. Its like winning a lottery.

 

[nathan]

Consider .22 LR as a lost cause. Why not buy a Mosin M 44 or 91.30 ? The ammo is plentiful and you get the full power load at affordable ammo prices.

 

[oneounceload]

Why not buy a Mosin M 44 or 91.30

Don't need another rifle or cartridge to shoot/reload
Already have plenty of .22 guns in various flavors.

Still have enough, but do not go blasting through two bricks a day like when my kids were young years ago......................