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THis is the answer to our Special Forces need

Discussion in 'Rifle Country' started by nathan, Apr 30, 2012.

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  1. nathan

    nathan Member

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  2. Sam1911

    Sam1911 Moderator

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    Not sure exactly why it's something our Special Forces need?

    Cyclic rate can be set several ways. I'm not sure that there's anything absolutely magical about lowering the M-16/M-4's rate. Probably not a bad idea, but not groundbreaking either. If that was wanted, it could have been specified as a change or an option at any point. Heck, the AKM has featured a rate reducing mechanism for about five decades now. Sub-gun shooters tune their cyclic rates all the time with simple buffers and heavier or lighter bolt assemblies.

    http://www.ferfrans.net/products/s-o-a-r
    Some of the statements here seem quite over-hyped and perhaps even misleading.

    Just seems "odd."
     
  3. ejnogarb

    ejnogarb Member

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    So their big innovation is a muzzle break and reducing the rate of fire? :what:
     
  4. nathan

    nathan Member

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    Los Angeles SWAT using it now.
     
  5. Sam1911

    Sam1911 Moderator

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    Really? Has that been verified? (Source?) And why? Have they stated a reason this is the right thing for them?
     
  6. wildehond

    wildehond Member

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    Sorry no replacement for training. :scrutiny:

    It will never be better than instictive shooting a good "double-tap".
     
  7. RhinoDefense

    RhinoDefense Member

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    So it's another AR based weapon that shoots slower and has a muzzle break. Nothing new.
     
  8. Robert

    Robert Moderator Staff Member

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    Why?

    And? As Sam said please cite a source for that.
     
  9. nathan

    nathan Member

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  10. Sam1911

    Sam1911 Moderator

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    To be perfectly honest, a US police force making any weapons purchase based on the capabilities of said weapon's full-auto firing characteristics makes me exceedingly nervous. There are many instances where departments take the trouble to disable/remove the burst or F/A function of carbines they receive through fed.gov programs before deploying them. The ability to fire full-auto is not wanted or needed for almost any conceivable civilian police work.

    As we've discussed many times, the response of a police force in a civilian/peace-time setting, to even a hostile person or small group armed with assault rifles or machine guns of their own, should not be returning automatic fire. There's very little benefit and the risk of unintended casualties is far too great.

    Hence, I'm surprised (at least) to see even a SWAT team making an armament decision based on better F/A characteristics.
     
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2012
  11. Sam1911

    Sam1911 Moderator

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    From the "allvoices" link:
    I tried to find the "Chief Protection Unit" of the LAPD. No luck. Does such a Unit exist?
     
  12. N003k

    N003k Member

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    Any chance that the 'Chief Protection Unit' is basically the chiefs toy collection? Theoretically he could place the order for the department, right?

    And being the chief, he COULD be his own 'protection unit' right? :neener:
     
  13. C-grunt

    C-grunt Member

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    Every SF soldier I have ever talked to were perfectly happy with their M4s and Mk18s. Soldiers rarely ever use the full auto capabilities of their rifles as it usually just wastes ammo. Well aimed semi auto fire will always be better than full auto at ranges beyond about 15 yards.
     
  14. Condor1970

    Condor1970 Member

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    Pointless. Just like the M14, which has had issues that simply cannot be fixed by tweeking, so does the AR platform. The AR platform will eventually be replaced, and all issues it has ever had, even with piston systems causing carrier tilt, will be gone. Good Riddens!!!
     
  15. RhinoDefense

    RhinoDefense Member

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    Yup and most of my AR sales are guys getting out of the military and buying Colts and BCM M4 clones.
     
  16. Float Pilot

    Float Pilot Member

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    The biggest hindrance to any military unit is the Washington Belt-Way, not the mechanical belt feed.
     
  17. Freedom_fighter_in_IL

    Freedom_fighter_in_IL Member

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    For one, I don't care how good the brake is, at 500 to 600 rpm you are NOT "eliminating" muzzle rise. Maybe decreasing it somewhat, but not "eliminating" as they claim. For two, full automatic fire has absolutely NO business in the hands of civilian authority. FA is for "suppression" (keep the enemy heads down) so your troops can move in. Law enforcement has no need for such maneuvers.

    As others have said, this is nothing new whatsoever. There have been systems designed to lower cyclic rate for decades. Pretty much as long as the M16 has been around. This seems just another attempt to hype a product because it was designed by someone from an impoverished country.
     
  18. allaroundhunter

    allaroundhunter Member

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    The last that we have been told about the SF that killed Osama is that he was not killed with FA fire....it was a nice controlled pair (semi-auto doubletap)

    Our special forces are trained well enough that they do not need a slower rate of fire to be better at their jobs. If they need to fire FA, they can do so accurately and controlled at 900 RPM. When precision is necessary, they will still use SA. This doesn't offer anything extra.
     
  19. carbine85

    carbine85 Member

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    From the video it looks like about the most controllable AR platform going. The best thing about the AR platform is it's ability to be adapted to something new, and listening to all the nah sayers.
     
  20. bigfatdave

    bigfatdave Member

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    say what?
    why would you damage the muzzle?

    I thought the idea was to slow recoil down, with some king of "brake" like device.

    hey, I know, how about we call it a muzzle brake?!?!
     
  21. allaroundhunter

    allaroundhunter Member

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    I am going to disagree with you here. There are situations where LE does have a use for a select fire weapon that don't involve "suppression".

    When law enforcement special weapons teams use MP5s, there is no need to restrict them to semi-automatic fire. The 9mm round is very controllable, especially in 3 round bursts, and I would prefer an operator fire 3 rounds of 9mm into a suspect in one pull of a trigger than have to pull the trigger 3 times in semi-auto.

    With a 5.56 rifle, select fire does not serve as great of a purpose, but in 9mm (and other handgun calibers), it most certainly is viable and, at times, useful.
     
  22. Adam123

    Adam123 Member

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    Say what? I propose a Queen brake-like device, but there's certainly no need for a King in this situation.

    Also, maybe you should try to be typo-free when you are making fun of others' typos. I sure hope you try to brake that nasty habit. Many greetings!
     
  23. ugaarguy

    ugaarguy Moderator Staff Member

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    Ordinary civilians can get pre-86 full autos in many states. Private security firms engaged in details on highly threatened protectees have been known to train in the use of FA fire to break ambushes in much the same way their civil LE and military counterparts do. On that note, civil LE agencies on the federal level, such as the US SS and US DSS, have a very strong need for FA capability. I wouldn't be surprised if there are state level LE agencies with similar missions and equal need of FA fire.

    As AAH has already mentioned, there are also circumstances even at the municipal LE level where FA fire can be desirable. Saying that FA fire "...has absolutely NO business in the hands of civilian authority." is too broad and general of a statement.

    I'm not advocating FA weapons for general LE use any way either, and as Sam1911 has already noted:
    LE agencies aren't just handing out FA weapons to every recruit fresh out of the academy. The vast majority require their officers / deputies to undergo separate training and qualification just to have a rifle in the patrol vehicle.

    Also,
    I've noted some exceptions that are conceivable, but, again, I'll emphasize that these are exceptions. Outside of specialized units with unique missions, highly selective entry criteria, and rigorous training & proficiency requirements I tend to agree. Given the entry selectivity, level of training, and fluid nature of their missions I have no problem with US SS and US DSS having FA weapons generally available to almost all of their special agents. Again, exceptions based on missions frequently carried out by those agencies.
     
  24. red-demon652

    red-demon652 Member

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    Keep head down spray and pray. I want as many rounds down range as posible. Sniping is accuracy in a combat situation, a machine gun has its purpose as well.

    Whether its 1000 rounds or 600 rounds per minute its still spray and pray.

    Ive heard a lot of ppl call it spray and pray, im sure its was for a reason.
     
  25. Freedom_fighter_in_IL

    Freedom_fighter_in_IL Member

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    The reason is, because it doesn't matter how much you train or how good you think you are, Full Auto from ANY rifle can only be SOMEWHAT controlled. Even 3 round bursts from an MP5 under combat situations will be only somewhat well placed. Where innocent civilians are concerned, full auto has absolutely NO place period. Now maybe out in the boonies on a drug raid where casualties will only be the bad guys, then yeah OK let them rip. But in 99.9% of the other situations in civilian population, they are absolutely un-needed and quite frankly, more danger to innocents than the bad guys.
     
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