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This poor rifle...

Discussion in 'Rifle Country' started by Trent, Feb 3, 2015.

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  1. briansmithwins

    briansmithwins Member

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    Ugly but functional. The outer case locates the parts and protects them from dirt while shielding the operator from the moving and hot parts. The outer case is also shaped to minimize the potential for snags.

    The height over bore is large because the case ejection tube runs over the top of the bore, where most rifles would have their gas system. The deep magwell provides support for the magazine and keeps it from getting damaged.

    The damage to the lower case would require replacing the lower, which isn't the serial numbered 'firearm' for ATF purposes. I didn't see any for sale online, but I think they cost a couple hundred dollars.

    BSW
     
  2. justin22885

    justin22885 member

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    the F2000 is a failed design anyway, the AUG and tavor own the bullpup market
     
  3. briansmithwins

    briansmithwins Member

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    In the US the Tavor and AUG seem to be selling much better. The F2000 has had some sales outside Belgium and the EU.

    The French and UK armies need to replace their aging inventory of small arms. Both have fielded bullpup rifles with mixed results and both no longer have the wherewithal to design and manufacture rifles themselves.

    I don't see a non-EU area design like the Tavor being bought by either, and the F2000, unlike the AUG, was designed for grenade launching, to the point where it has a laser range finding grenade sight available and has space in the butt designed for the battery pack.

    Also, the AUG requires a left handed bolt to change it for left handed shooters, the F2000 doesn't.

    However, I could easily see the Indian Army going to the Tavor, since the INSAS program has been a mess.

    It'll be interesting to see which way the arms sales market goes.

    BSW
     
  4. barnbwt

    barnbwt member

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    "the F2000 is a failed design anyway, the AUG and tavor own the bullpup market"
    Tavor hasn't been around long enough, and the AUG is basically the only successful bullpup that's been done (and still has its own issues that limit its popularity). The FN rifle predates the current rail/modular fad, so keep that in mind when critiquing the design.

    TCB
     
  5. barnbwt

    barnbwt member

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    Unlike most here, I like Bubba; he makes expensive guns accessible (well, at least when he has to sell them --the gun here is priced like it was worked over by Wilson). I've scored a VZ61 half off because Bubba ground off the rear sight and scabbed a shelf bracket onto the rear for a red dot "sight mount" that was easily fixed, and just recently an unfired Steyr SPP for one third of the going rate because some dummy lost the (non structural) top cover.

    TCB
     
  6. bannockburn

    bannockburn Member

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    What's even sadder than what was done to this rifle is the disclaimer "may need some work" and the $1700 asking price!
     
  7. justin22885

    justin22885 member

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    the FN2000 is not just a failed design in poor sales, the whole concept of the rifle is inherently flawed, its nearly completely impossible without completely disassembling the rifle to clear a jam, and its going to jam, all rifles do.. the idea of creating a sealed rifle in an attempt to prevent dirt and debris from getting inside it doesnt really work, especially when the dirt and debris could be within the magazine itself, once in the rifle you cant get that out without completely disassembling it

    its such a bad design on paper, in practice, in the field, and in the market and last i heard the militaries that were trying them out were not very impressed.. even though the AUG has a few issues of its own, its still on an entirely different level than the F2000, you dont NEED a rifle that ejects from the left side, but a port buffer, a simple addition to the AUG would allow it to be fired left handed, and compared to the tavor, at least the AUG has the option of left eject

    the new AUG A3 M1 has some modern updates to it, hard to say if its what these militaries want right now or not, there are a couple things they could change to improve it, one example would be using a pull vs a push trigger link, by using a link that pulls vs pushes you greatly improve the feel and weight of the trigger group.. something the AUG, F2000, and i believe even the tavor all do that they seriously need to quit doing is using those cheap ass plastic trigger groups.. plastic on plastic usually means a lot of friction, on top of that a lightweight hammer has little momentum and requires a much heavier hammer spring, increasing the weight and the grit giving the bullpups their reputation for junk triggers

    one rifle i'm REALLY keeping my eye on right now is the K&M M17S, which is like the old bushmaster M17S but has been greatly improved, it's all steel construction however it weighs less than any other bullpup on the market, its trigger uses a modified AR-15 steel trigger pack and a pull link which also gives it a trigger that mirrors that of any conventional rifle and to make it even more aftermarket compatible it uses an AR-15 pistol grip, and the same type of buttpad that magpul uses on their stocks.. if its reliable, it may just be the best bullpup on the market
     
  8. briansmithwins

    briansmithwins Member

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    You know, I keep hearing this, but haven't experienced it myself. The only stoppages I've ever had were induced by not fully seating the magazine. These were easily cleared by removing the magazine and cycling the charging handle. Field stripping wasn't required.

    Because of the AUG's ejection port location, a port buffer would be very uncomfortable or actually cause bruises or other injuries.

    The Tavor is actually better than the AUG from the aspect of left handed conversion, since the charging handle can be swapped to the right side, as well as the ejection port being moved to the left.

    Left handed bullpup shooters (or left eye dominate shooters) need a left ejecting rifle. My left handed friends who have shot the FS2000 liked it, as it was the only bullpup they could pick up and shoot comfortably w/o need to swap parts.

    BSW
     
  9. Trent

    Trent Member

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    I've cleared one jam on my FS2000, and it involved removing the magazine, flipping the top cover up, and cycling the action. Done and done. Jam was caused by a previously jammed round from an AR15 that had a badly dented shoulder. The round managed to find it's way back in to a magazine, to get fed to the FS2000 later. Round wouldn't chamber. Jam was pretty much a non issue.

    (Yeah I know, I should check loose rounds in my range bag before loading them in magazines... that one got chucked back in there during a high power match, and instead of hitting the recycle bin under my reloading bench, got back in to a magazine somehow)

    I don't think I've ever bothered to clean the thing. Maybe I should one of these days? I have about 2500 rounds through mine.
     
  10. sirgilligan

    sirgilligan Member

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    If I had an FS2000, I might buy the Frankenstein for spare parts. :)
     
  11. RetiredUSNChief

    RetiredUSNChief Member

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    $1,700 with issues?

    I'm thinking...NOT!
     
  12. Sheepdog1968

    Sheepdog1968 Member

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    When I was a teenager in the 80s and looking to buy a muscle car from the 60s I would pass on cars that had been hot rodded by the prior owner for the same reasons I would pass on this. My assumption when modifying a gun is it will be mine for life or I will take a huge hit on resale.

    My current delima is I bought a pre-cross bolt safety marlin 336 Texan (straight stock) with the intention of chopping the barrel to 16.5". I know I will never sell it. It I still find it hard to permanently modify it even though I bought it specifically for this. Also, it's not like they are that rare and it will be Wild West guns who does the work.
     
  13. Trent

    Trent Member

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    Sheepdog;

    When I buy guns - no matter what type they are - I always have at the back of my mind "my life may count on this tool someday."

    While most of this is some deep seeded survival instinct on obtaining food to live, it holds even more true for the class of guns the FS2000 (Or AR / AK / etc) falls in.

    That's not a hunting rifle, it's a defensive weapon.

    It's a very fast, very convenient gun to use. While 223/5.56 would not be my first pick for indoor use or defense of the home, it'd readily do so in a pinch.

    I've shot my FS2000 in high power sporting rifle before as a "match rifle", and it won the match. (Granted, more of that is on me, than the rifle, as I win most club matches I shoot in these days... but still.. the gun can shoot). :)

    It's a sub MOA shooter, and even with a non-magnified EOTech on top I was scoring in the upper 80% range (score) out to 300 yards.

    The advantage on standing / offhand stages cannot be understated. With the shape of that buttstock (how low it drops below line of sight) and the foregrip shape, you can get a classic high power standing posture easily, with zero weight out in front of your arm.

    Fact is, I can drill a 2/3 scale torso target at 300 yards with my FS2000 - standing (offhand), with non-magnified optics, and I can do it 100% of the time.

    I don't own many other guns I can do that with.

    It's also very stable sitting, and prone, although I do lose a slight edge there to the guns I run a 1907 sling on. The weight bias and buttstock shape make it a natural pointer with very, very little of the bodies uncontrolled movements (heartbeat, etc) translated to the point of aim.

    This rifle would be on my short list to grab out of the safe if things ever went real bad real fast in this world of ours. It's a go-to for my trunk when I'm travelling - due to it's size and shape and ease of breaking down I can put it in a small bag that doesn't look like a gun bag. :)
     
  14. OilyPablo

    OilyPablo Member

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    Go done wake Bubba up. A bunch a people is eyeballing his special rifle.

    I wouldn't win that thing in a reverse lottery.
     
  15. Field Tester

    Field Tester Member

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    Where is the serial and which part is considered the firearm?
     
  16. mnrivrat

    mnrivrat Member

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    Looks like a bargin . A little super glue and some duck tape ought to fixer right up ! :what: :neener:
     
  17. elephant_man

    elephant_man Member

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    So I'm guessing the big freakout is that the plastic magwell was cut up? I'm assuming ATI, Tapco or promag doesn't make replacement plastic stocks.
     
  18. mnrivrat

    mnrivrat Member

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    Might be assuming too much .

    One has no way of knowing what all has been buggered up, or if the parts are available . Also the cost of a stock (and possible other parts) and installation.
    Even if it is only the stock, and they are available, I'm thinking by the time you add that cost to the asking price you will have no bargin. Just a lot of extra risk and maybe even more money than buying an unaltered one.
     
  19. Trent

    Trent Member

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    Yes, and no.

    The "big plastick stock" is the 2-piece clamshell receiver. By definition, that big plastick stock *is* the firearm.

    Not exactly trivial to replace that piece.

    ETA: Nevermind. They declared the left side barrel support bracket is the receiver. You can't order that as a replacement part from FN.

    You should be able to order the stock? No idea what it costs though.

    Update: I did some googling. The stock serial # is matched to the "receiver", which is the barrel support bracket. You cannot buy the stocks at any cost.
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2015
  20. briansmithwins

    briansmithwins Member

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    There are two versions of the FS2000, one with the integrated optic and cover, and the one with the flat top rail.

    On the flat top version, the rail is the serial numbered ATF 'firearm'.

    The original lower receiver (plastic clamshell) has a matching serial number imprinted on it, but that one doesn't mean anything, legally. I have seen replacement lowers for sale that were manufactured as replacement parts, and those are simply blank in the serial number area.

    BSW
     
  21. Trent

    Trent Member

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    Thanks for the additional info Brian!

    I haven't ever seen a replacement stock for sale anywhere. I know they cannot be obtained from FNH, but it doesn't seem like fabrication would be much of an issue - it's just injected polymer. Creating them would be no more difficult than any other plastic part. (Granted, the set up to do them in bulk would be frigging *ex-pen-sive* as that's a big honking piece of steel that has to be machined to make the mold, plus all the design work)

    On a small scale, would it be possible to 3D Print one of those stocks?

    Are there any commercial 3d printers that are large enough to handle that large of an object?
     
  22. briansmithwins

    briansmithwins Member

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    No, it's not.

    There is a steel pin that the fired cartridge case rammer rubs against, steel rails inside the lower that the BCG runs on, and a rubber buffer that stops the end travel of the BCG.

    As far a getting a new lower, try this guy:

    http://www.strykerenterprises.com/contact.html

    He sells a lot of FN gear on gun broker.com and directly that FN USA has a hard time getting (or at least admitting they have).

    BSW
     
  23. Trent

    Trent Member

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    I ran across him when I was researching this last night.

    http://fnforum.net/forums/fn-fs2000/48250-where-can-i-find-replacement-stock.html

    In that forum post, he says they are not available.

    I'm not looking for one - mine is in perfect shape. (Although I wouldn't mind knowing what options are available as mine may not always be in perfect shape? :) )

    I'm just looking to solve the riddle of what it'd take cost-wise, to make that original gun on gunbroker "whole" again.
     
  24. HOOfan_1

    HOOfan_1 Member

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    I haven't even been able to buy recoil springs for my FNP. Love FN products but wish the aftermarket support was better.
     
  25. Trent

    Trent Member

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    Yeah I ran in to the same issue with my SCAR, hoofan, looking for certain things. Took a long time before any aftermarket parts ever showed up on the market.

    Some probably won't ever come to fruition; example; I'd really love to have a 243 caliber conversion for my SCAR17.
     
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