This story makes my stomach hurt

[campergeek]

I first heard this on the St. Louis news tonight, and something smelled funny about it, so I searched for an article and found this:

http://www.belleville.com/mld/belleville/news/state/16232023.htm

Without knowing the details I can't say that these guys are great representatives of our cause (I found one story which suggested that one had a felony record), and it looks like the one with a FFL was not recording sales properly. However, with the little information I see this enforcement seems a bit heavy-handed, and the reporting seems a bit dramatic.

What caused me pause in the first place is that it is not illegal in Missouri to sell firearms without a license (one Missourian to another). Perhaps there were inter-state issues here, since two of the indicted parties were from Iowa, but one of those does have an FFL. There must have been some interstate commerce issues here, since the feds found jurisdiction, but the article doesn't describe that as the issue - instead it makes it sound like these sales crossed some judgement line where person-to-person sales turned into engaging in business.

Anyway, there really aren't enough details in the article to discuss the case on its merits. I'd be interested if anyone has any more information or even first-hand knowledge about this operation.

I guess what really got me irritated is how the reporting makes it sound like these guys are bad because:

1. They sold guns to other people without a license (which is legal within the state)
2. They own lots of guns (again, legal - except Webb who is indicted as a felon in possesion)

I'm especially bothered by the comments of U.S. Attorney Catherine Hanaway (formerly Republican Missouri State Rep.) about "These guns will be off the streets, and I think that's what's truly important in this case." The comment might not be so uncomfortable if there were some direct implication that these guys were selling for criminal purposes, but there is no such implication given in the article.

Somebody help to educate me here - what exactly did these guys do wrong?

 

[rkh]

As the article said, you need an FFL and must observe the BATF's regulatory formalities if you derive your livelihood from dealing in guns. I don't know what the threshold turnover rate is before the BATF considers you to be operating a business, but it didn't sound like these guys were selling off items from their personal collection.

 

[Jeff White]

Somebody help to educate me here - what exactly did these guys do wrong?

They engaged in the business of selling firearms without a license. You are correct that you do not need a license to sell a firearm or two to someone else. But go buy a table at the flea market, week after week, month after month and sell firearms and you are engaged in the business of selling firearms which requires you to have an FFL, keep a bound book of all your firearms, abide by federal (and any applicable state laws) laws pertaining to how you keep records and who you sell guns to. Basically you can sell your guns but you can't be in the business of dealing in guns without a license.

I have no idea how many guns these guys sold. I imagine it will come out at the trial. Might even be possible a licensed dealer turned them in.

Jeff

 

[ConstitutionCowboy]

It's just Another Case...

...of guns bought and sold in defiance of unconstitutional law. Tell it like it is, I always say.

Woody

How many times must people get bit in the (insert appropriate anatomical region) before they figure out that infringing upon rights sets the stage for the detrimental acts those rights were there to deter? B.E.Wood

 

[TallPine]

I don't know what the threshold turnover rate is before the BATF considers you to be operating a business

The "threshold" is totally undefined, so I guess it is whatever the BATF says it is at any particular hour and minute on any particular day. Though I suppose if you filed tax returns claiming your gun dealing expenses as a business deduction, then you have pretty well defined it for yourself.

A whole bunch of FFLs got pulled under the Clinton admin because they weren't selling enough guns (or did not have a store front) to be considered a business. But nowhere is there an explicit legal definition of how much is enough, or too much for that matter