This widow needs help about consignment problem.
- Thread starter Erica M.
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RCArms.com
Member
This is incredibly bad advice.
1: The shop sounds to be on target with what they promised.
2: This is not a matter that the ATF would be involved in.
Rail Driver
Member
It seems that the definition of "sold" is in question here... Most everybody I know (including more than a handful of FFL dealers) defines sold as cash in hand. It seems that you (and the dealer in question) define "sold" differently.
I agree, however, that sarge gave poor advice.
RCArms.com
Member
"sold" means that both money and goods have changed hands.
In this case, money has changed hands, but the goods have not. That is not a sale, but a deposit.
I don't see why this is such a hard concept to grasp on this situation.
45_auto
Member
LMAO! While you're at it, contact the Post Office, US Marines, Girl Scouts, and AARP. Any of those will do you more good in this case than the ATF!
Erica, I live and work in California, and have managed a busy gun business in the past. I have also had a FFL (twice). From what you have described, the dealer is legally obligated to do exactly what they are doing. At the end of the 30 days, it's a little less clear - but the passage you quoted grants the buyer the opportunity to go a second 30 days.
The gun shop isn't happy about this situation, either. They have to do more paperwork if the buyer fails to pick up. They also have an unhappy customer - you. Realize 99% of these transactions go off without a hitch. Buyers are usually anxious to pick up the gun in 10 (or 11, if the shop chooses to error on the side of caution) days, but things happen.
If it doesn't get delivered to the buyer on or before Friday, be there 1st thing Saturday and ask them to produce your gun for inspection. If they refuse, call the local news station - they love to slam firearms people.
I'm not a lawyer, but if the gun shop produces the gun for inspection, I think you are out of luck - you'll probably have to wait the second 30 days. At the very least, you'll have to wait 10 and pay the DROS fee.
It is my opinion that the gun shop is NOT taking advantage of you - unless, of course, they can't produce the gun.
If you happen to be in Bakersfield, send me a PM. I have contacts that can assist you as needed.
The gun shop isn't happy about this situation, either. They have to do more paperwork if the buyer fails to pick up. They also have an unhappy customer - you. Realize 99% of these transactions go off without a hitch. Buyers are usually anxious to pick up the gun in 10 (or 11, if the shop chooses to error on the side of caution) days, but things happen.
If it doesn't get delivered to the buyer on or before Friday, be there 1st thing Saturday and ask them to produce your gun for inspection. If they refuse, call the local news station - they love to slam firearms people.
I'm not a lawyer, but if the gun shop produces the gun for inspection, I think you are out of luck - you'll probably have to wait the second 30 days. At the very least, you'll have to wait 10 and pay the DROS fee.
It is my opinion that the gun shop is NOT taking advantage of you - unless, of course, they can't produce the gun.
If you happen to be in Bakersfield, send me a PM. I have contacts that can assist you as needed.
Bubbles
Member
Here in the free world handguns are cash and carry, and background checks are instant. We can make funds available to consignors in 72 hours after the sale (the time for a CC payment to hit our account), though our consignment agreement gives us 30 days.
In CA there are so many "steps" to buying a handgun that it looks like it's almost not worth the hassle of selling or consigning them, which is unfortunately the goal of their elected officials.
I agree with your interpretation, and don't believe that the gun shop will incur any liability by such - but if the gun shop owner/management disagrees, they do have some leverage.
Realize, though, that the gun shop is doing what they believe to be in compliance with the law. They will not risk anything over $29, or $275 for that matter. It's simply not worth it to them, even in the short run.
Your best course financially is to be patient and let them do their best to sell it. The fault is with the buyer, not the gun store.
Realize, though, that the gun shop is doing what they believe to be in compliance with the law. They will not risk anything over $29, or $275 for that matter. It's simply not worth it to them, even in the short run.
Your best course financially is to be patient and let them do their best to sell it. The fault is with the buyer, not the gun store.
newfalguy101
Member
In that case, if the buyer OWNS the gun, then the shop OWES you YOUR money.
Simply put, they cant have it both ways....
paramedic70002
Member
Not to meddle too much in your business, but you were wanting another gun, right? Ask the dealer to credit you the amount owed and put it toward the gun you want.
Here's my take. All that Cali dros stuff aside, she took the gun in to be sold on consignment. The ffl takes a fee to sell the gun, which covers handling all potential buyers and sale details. once that gun is sold, it is on the ffl to get it to the buyer and she should be paid, regardless of whether the guy picks it up. If he doesn't, tough luck, it goes in the store's inventory. She should not be dealing with all this waiting bs. Her part of the deal is done, and she should be paid, regardless of if this guy ever picks up the gun.
Just curious, how much did it sell for?
Just curious, how much did it sell for?
RCArms.com
Member
Would you release finds to a consignor prior to transferring the firearm to the buyer or would you wait until the customer physically took possession of the consigned firearm and completed the sale?Here in the free world handguns are cash and carry, and background checks are instant. We can make funds available to consignors in 72 hours after the sale (the time for a CC payment to hit our account), though our consignment agreement gives us 30 days.
In CA there are so many "steps" to buying a handgun that it looks like it's almost not worth the hassle of selling or consigning them, which is unfortunately the goal of their elected officials.
Just curious as that is the center of the issue relevant to the OP.
Don
RCArms.com
Member
That truly depends on the terms of the consignment contract, written or verbal.
I always recommend a written contract because it's impossible to change the terms of the contract without both parties signing a re-drafted agreement.
That contract seems to be absent in this case, so it's the classic case of "he said, she said".
If the DROS expires and the original "buyer" does not come forward, the sale is cancelled per the language of the law. My guess this is why the shop won't make payment on the sale because if it's "cancelled", the buyer is entitled to a refund of their money unless the sale agreement contained a forfeiture clause.
I cannot comment on how I would handle this in my location because the procedure and contracts that I use cover all these issues up front. I cant imagine a retail shop in CA would not have a similar contractual process to handle a simple consignment sale and I still think there is more to this saga than what we know.
Don
danez71
Member
Erica
From my perspective from research minus any bravado....
This is correct. When you get down to nitty gritty.... until a buyer takes possesion, the sale isnt complete.
Payment and taking possession are two intirely different things. Ive seen it really muddy things up in real-estate in regards to pre-possession by a buyer before escrow closes or post possession of the seller after escrow closes.
Generally, a sale is complete when 'consideration' is given and 'possession' is taken. Anything other than that is lawyer food.
Also, the gun laws will trump any consignment laws. (thats a period right there)
Anything resembling this is at the option of the dealer.
Again, as RCArms laid out very nicely, the sale is not complete. The dealer would be taking on some risk of the gun not selling for the same price in the future if this buyer ultimately falls thru and loosing some money.
Good business.. maybe. Risk for the dealer.. absolutely.
Really... it doesnt even imply that. Its ONLY TWO sentences so lets look at as two sentences.
Sentence 1:
The transaction MUST be cancelled. No other option but canceling the transaction.
Sentence 2:
I see the angle Teachu2 mentioned.
However, as I and RCArms.com have said, 'a' sale isnt complete until payment and possossion have taken place.
But specifically with handgun sales in CA, the DROS is inserted in the middle.
I... who is not a lawyer... say that the 'transaction' (CA Attorney Generals language) is cancelled and that the 'transaction' includes everything that RCArms.com laid out which is (shortened) payment, DROS, taking possession.
Therefore, if the 'transaction' has been cancelled, the buyer starts from step one which would include settling on a buy price, payment, submitting DROS etc etc etc.
Sentence two above is reiterating that, yes indeed, the DROS have to be redone.
Having said all that.. just go down there and show the dealer. If he balks too much, tell him that it leaves you no choice but to go to the Attorney General.
Thats the LAST thing he wants and its certainly worth losing the sale to avoid it.
If we're right youll get your gun. Either way, the DOJ will make sure the law is followed and there is nothing you can do about it.
This is a reminder of why Ive never done and will probably never do consignment ANYTHING.
I like my transaction as simple as possible with the least amount of room for error. I may of lost out on a few bucks but I have piece of mind and not 2 pages of internet banter.
Good luck and be patient.
Bull in the china shop wont work here despite what some have recommended.
The gun laws will trump all other consignment laws, store policies or your interpretation of what a reasonable amount of time.
Read that again.
Just make sure the dealer is holding to the gun laws.
From my perspective from research minus any bravado....
This is correct. When you get down to nitty gritty.... until a buyer takes possesion, the sale isnt complete.
Payment and taking possession are two intirely different things. Ive seen it really muddy things up in real-estate in regards to pre-possession by a buyer before escrow closes or post possession of the seller after escrow closes.
Generally, a sale is complete when 'consideration' is given and 'possession' is taken. Anything other than that is lawyer food.
Also, the gun laws will trump any consignment laws. (thats a period right there)
Anything resembling this is at the option of the dealer.
Again, as RCArms laid out very nicely, the sale is not complete. The dealer would be taking on some risk of the gun not selling for the same price in the future if this buyer ultimately falls thru and loosing some money.
Good business.. maybe. Risk for the dealer.. absolutely.
Really... it doesnt even imply that. Its ONLY TWO sentences so lets look at as two sentences.
Sentence 1:
The transaction MUST be cancelled. No other option but canceling the transaction.
Sentence 2:
I see the angle Teachu2 mentioned.
However, as I and RCArms.com have said, 'a' sale isnt complete until payment and possossion have taken place.
But specifically with handgun sales in CA, the DROS is inserted in the middle.
I... who is not a lawyer... say that the 'transaction' (CA Attorney Generals language) is cancelled and that the 'transaction' includes everything that RCArms.com laid out which is (shortened) payment, DROS, taking possession.
Therefore, if the 'transaction' has been cancelled, the buyer starts from step one which would include settling on a buy price, payment, submitting DROS etc etc etc.
Sentence two above is reiterating that, yes indeed, the DROS have to be redone.
Having said all that.. just go down there and show the dealer. If he balks too much, tell him that it leaves you no choice but to go to the Attorney General.
Thats the LAST thing he wants and its certainly worth losing the sale to avoid it.
If we're right youll get your gun. Either way, the DOJ will make sure the law is followed and there is nothing you can do about it.
This is a reminder of why Ive never done and will probably never do consignment ANYTHING.
I like my transaction as simple as possible with the least amount of room for error. I may of lost out on a few bucks but I have piece of mind and not 2 pages of internet banter.
Good luck and be patient.
Bull in the china shop wont work here despite what some have recommended.
The gun laws will trump all other consignment laws, store policies or your interpretation of what a reasonable amount of time.
Read that again.
Just make sure the dealer is holding to the gun laws.
Lost Sheep
Member
Erica M.
Sorry about the loss of your husband.
Welcome to the forum and good luck with the sale of this gun and the purchase of your new one. Personally, I would have kept it because 22 ammo is cheap and practice time at the range is VERY valuable. But that is beside the point. However, if you get a chance to get the gun back, something to consider.
On point:
Are you dealing with the store owner or some some kind clerk or manager who may not have any "skin in the game"? Small businesses seldom treat their customers so cavalierly. If you can get an audience, sit down with the store owner and outline what you want. Make sure it is reasonable from the standpoint of the store and get it down clearly. Write it down beforehand so you can't be negotiated or wheedled out of it.
If the 10 and 30 day periods for the buyer have passed and (as has been suggested) the sale is cancelled, then the store has no obligation to hold the gun for him and some other (qualified) buyer SHOULD be able to buy it. That buyer could even be you, or if you find a brand-new buyer, that person. This presupposes that Califonia Commercial Code does not obligate the store to a duty to the absent buyer longer than the 30 days.
If this absent buyer is unreachable, he could be dead for all the store knows and never coming back. How long do they expect you to wait?
How long are you willing to wait? Set a deadline for return of your gun or delivery of your proceeds of sale. Get the store owner or manager to commit to that date and ask him to agree to it in writing.
The store is rightly concerned about the (absent) buyer complaining to the Better Business Bureau if they cancel the sale unreasonably. They should be equally concerned for your expectations, as well. The store has obligations to both of you. But your next meeting with the store SHOULD (hopefully) result in a committment from the store of performance by a certain (in writing) date. Between the store's obligations to each of you, there MUST be a middle ground. Get the store to commit to that. The important part is that there should be an end date.
Doing business is doing business. It seems to me also, that if they cannot produce the gun for your inspection that there may, indeed, be evidence of intention to deprive you of your property.
For your trouble, you should ask that they waive the consignment cancellation fee. As an accomodation, you can let them keep it, but make them aware that you are considering it.
Good Luck.
Lost Sheep
Sorry about the loss of your husband.
Welcome to the forum and good luck with the sale of this gun and the purchase of your new one. Personally, I would have kept it because 22 ammo is cheap and practice time at the range is VERY valuable. But that is beside the point. However, if you get a chance to get the gun back, something to consider.
On point:
Are you dealing with the store owner or some some kind clerk or manager who may not have any "skin in the game"? Small businesses seldom treat their customers so cavalierly. If you can get an audience, sit down with the store owner and outline what you want. Make sure it is reasonable from the standpoint of the store and get it down clearly. Write it down beforehand so you can't be negotiated or wheedled out of it.
If the 10 and 30 day periods for the buyer have passed and (as has been suggested) the sale is cancelled, then the store has no obligation to hold the gun for him and some other (qualified) buyer SHOULD be able to buy it. That buyer could even be you, or if you find a brand-new buyer, that person. This presupposes that Califonia Commercial Code does not obligate the store to a duty to the absent buyer longer than the 30 days.
If this absent buyer is unreachable, he could be dead for all the store knows and never coming back. How long do they expect you to wait?
How long are you willing to wait? Set a deadline for return of your gun or delivery of your proceeds of sale. Get the store owner or manager to commit to that date and ask him to agree to it in writing.
The store is rightly concerned about the (absent) buyer complaining to the Better Business Bureau if they cancel the sale unreasonably. They should be equally concerned for your expectations, as well. The store has obligations to both of you. But your next meeting with the store SHOULD (hopefully) result in a committment from the store of performance by a certain (in writing) date. Between the store's obligations to each of you, there MUST be a middle ground. Get the store to commit to that. The important part is that there should be an end date.
Doing business is doing business. It seems to me also, that if they cannot produce the gun for your inspection that there may, indeed, be evidence of intention to deprive you of your property.
For your trouble, you should ask that they waive the consignment cancellation fee. As an accomodation, you can let them keep it, but make them aware that you are considering it.
Good Luck.
Lost Sheep
Rail Driver
Member
RCArms: You're no better than the bureaucrats that instituted the legislation infringing firearms rights in California. You're defending a shop taking this woman's money and holding it for an indeterminate amount of time for no reason other than the buyer didn't pick up the firearm in reasonable time. When a person consigns a firearm the FFL that is selling it for them STILL must enter it into their bound book as an acquisition. Once it's in the FFL's bound book, the firearm is the property of the FFL by default until it's sold. When a buyer PAYS for the firearm, it becomes the property of the buyer (as the FFL told Ms. Erica). The money, less the fees assessed by the FFL, is the property of the SELLER (Ms. Erica). That the FFL is refusing to give the seller her money is NOT legal, regardless of whether or not the buyer has picked up the sold item or not, because at the time of the sale, the FFL was the defacto owner of the firearm. A consignment is a sale with delayed payment. The FFL is a thief, no two ways about it. I almost wish it was me in Ms. Erica's shoes, because if it was, the FFL she's dealing with would be out of business within 6 months or sooner if the court docket wasn't overly full.
Anyone that thinks it's ok to hold a person's money for any length of time just because the buyer hasn't picked up the property is no better than a common thief. Once the buyer pays for the item, it belongs to the buyer *as the FFL in question ALREADY STATED.* So who does the money belong to then, but the seller? It certainly doesn't belong to the FFL that is illegally collecting interest on said money while he waits for the (likely nonexistent) buyer to pick it up. The FFL has already gotten his fees from both parties, and still has possession of the firearm AND the money owed to Ms. Erica. The only person winning here is the FFL. The FFL is a crook, and I'd be very interested to know the name of the shop AND FFL holder so that I can do everything in my power, within the bounds of the law, to see to it that the FFL in question never rips off anyone else.
Anyone that thinks it's ok to hold a person's money for any length of time just because the buyer hasn't picked up the property is no better than a common thief. Once the buyer pays for the item, it belongs to the buyer *as the FFL in question ALREADY STATED.* So who does the money belong to then, but the seller? It certainly doesn't belong to the FFL that is illegally collecting interest on said money while he waits for the (likely nonexistent) buyer to pick it up. The FFL has already gotten his fees from both parties, and still has possession of the firearm AND the money owed to Ms. Erica. The only person winning here is the FFL. The FFL is a crook, and I'd be very interested to know the name of the shop AND FFL holder so that I can do everything in my power, within the bounds of the law, to see to it that the FFL in question never rips off anyone else.
Apparently she decided to delete them and move on.
Since there is no longer a topic to discuss we'll close this.
Since there is no longer a topic to discuss we'll close this.
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